Why do People who Ridicule Conspiracy Threorists Hang out in 911 Forums and on ATS?

You know the saying that TRUTH goes through various phases along the lines of:

1) Absolute Denial
2) Rage and Anger
3) Humiliation/Shaming
4) Accepted as always being self evident

Allow the folks who are here as skeptics to be in "their" process as per above - as surely many here have been until reaching step 4) or somewhere near.

And frankly, boards such as ATS need skeptics.

In my mind a GULLIBLE TRUTHER is equally as dangerous or disengenious as a "HARDLINE 911 SKEPTIC".

As such we should seek an atmosphere of balance with both sides of the equation being OPEN to further information that allows them to evolve from an "entrenched position", be it for a 911 conspiracy or against.

Therefore it is the manner in which this FLOW OF IDEAS is "MANAGED" on this board and others that will dictate likely outcome.

If a TRUTHER finds themselves up against a 911 skeptic that is in blatant denial or otherwise (maybe even the other way around) - then allow that person to be a human being and to exist somewhere in steps 1-4 above (as many of us have done in all areas of life), knowing that overtime, through debate and disclosure that something near the truth will eventually manifest.

Any healthy and balanced evaluation of 911 requires both the skeptic and the gullible.

You will often find that the underlying issues in such a debate are largely psychological.

(although I am not denying that the powers that be that wish to "cover up" are manipulating this psychology towards their own ends)

To the original poster - your frustration is wholeheartedly acknowledged

Thanks

Bravo





[edit on 16-9-2009 by Bravo111]

But do the conspiracy theoriest haters agree that the 9/11 commision left out a lot of unanswered questions, and that the commision was close to press charges against the agency officials that lies to them or distorted the truth? If the agency officials had nothing to hide, why would they do this?

Do the conspiracy theorist haters agree we need a new unbiased investigation not influenced by any agency that was involved with 911?



[edit on 16-9-2009 by conar]

sheeptrolls- someone should track them. might find something interesting. Possibly IPs originating in places like the pentagon. I remember reading up on a guy calling himself UFOBLOGGER (sure you've all heard the story) and how he was getting hits from gov sources. One guy even openly admitted to being a pentagon worker (if u believe it).
Any military or gov bureaucrat will tell you that the disinfo campaign is BIG. It covers the whole spectrum of BS from lowly internet flame trolls to active agents passing themselves off as legit Ufologists.
I say ignore them- their tactics aren't working too well anymore and people are beginning to see them for what they are.
At first they sent their thugs with threats
now they just ridicule us. Pathetic.

These people obviously don't have a mind of there own and so are happy to lap up what the media tell them to believe and then hate on the people that do question what they are told because they have a brain and like to decide things for themselves instead of just believing what they are told

I say let them bitch and moan that we can think for ourselves while they are just like lambs to slaughter

I railed against it in the beginning. The truth about 911 that we still aren't completely sure of. I was one of these people that called those beginning truthers "irrational and disturbed". But I wouldn't dare have come anywhere near a conspiracy website such as this. Out of FEAR. Because this is such a major line to cross people. It's huge. If you accept that the cover-up happened, no matter who perpetrated this, you have to take on a whole lot of other baggage as well. Then, like the rest of us, you can't NOT see it anymore. I'm happier this way. Knowing. But sometimes I don't want to know any of it.

Well after a few years of research ON MY OWN, I've come to the conclusion 9/11 was an inside job. Well it obviously didn't happen the way the Official "Story" tells it.

Calstorm, I'd suggest you do the same. Do the research on your own, visit websites, that show facts for the Official Story, matter of fact, read the 9/11 Commission Report, and also visit Truth forums, watch September Clues, Loose Change, and the the videos on the Citizens Investigation Teams - CIT Website. Just to start to scratch the surface.

Dig, and dig more and more for months and months, then come to your OWN ideas of what may have happened, before comeing to a forum such as this. ATS's 9-11 Conspiracy Forum is not for those with weak stomachs, or feelings that can easily be hurt by words (not even words, text on a screen by some anonomous person with God knows what for an agenda.)

However, after saying all that, I do believe OS subscibers have every right to post here, as this is a public forum, and another way to saying that is that this is an open discussion on what happened on 9-11 and the days following.

Sure it would be a rosy place , and alot less stressful without a certain 6 or 7 members ( not gonna name names), but again, what sort of forum would this be if everyone just agreed. It'd get boring and old REAL FAST. I know for me it w2ould.

Plus I wanna hear what the other side has to say. Putting on Blinders, and makeing up your mind, and saying I WILL NEVER CHANGE IT. Is a dangerous thing.

What if an OS guy made a post and had newly released footage of a plane hitting the Pentagon? Isn't that something you'd want to see, as unlikely as it is.

So yes there is a place for them here, as this is an open discussion forum last I looked.

I would venture to guess that there are very few if any true "skeptics" on this forum. I would say most that oppose legitimate questioning of authorities would be army psyops.

The purpose of psychological operations (PSYOP) is to demoralize the enemy by causing dissension and unrest among his ranks, while at the same time convincing the local population to support American troops. PSYOP units also provide continuous analysis of the attitudes and behavior of enemy forces to the tactical commanders in the field, so they can develop, produce and employ propaganda in a successful manner.

Psychological Operations are a vital part of the broad range of U.S. political, military, economic and ideological activities used by the U.S. government to secure national objectives. PSYOP is the dissemination of truthful information to foreign audiences in support of U.S. policy and national objectives.

www.psywarrior.com...

Originally posted by conar
But do the conspiracy theoriest haters agree that the 9/11 commision left out a lot of unaswered question, and that the commision was close to press charges against the agency officials that lies to them or distorted the truth? If they had nothing to hide, why would they do this?

Do the conspiracy theorist haters agree we need a new unbiased investigation not influenced by any agency that was involved with 911?

Unaswered questions - no.

New unbiased investigation - be my guest. Have at it. Go for it. Do you need someone's permission? Unless you want the taxpayer to foot the bill and give you some kind of power. Then you're on your own.

Truth is what ats is all about, we seek to get knowledge and understanding, a person who gets stuck in the maze is always confused, but once the solution is understood to oneself you find your way out.
Do you share the secret ? do you sell it? maybe you seal the exit, and watch and laugh at others, because evil to some give pleasure, they even hide behind virtue
Those that support blood sports, are convinced they are right, their opposite opinions don,t even come into the situation.
Many that oppose blood sports eat meat, so what is right?
Your conscience is supposed to guide, but if ignored even that becomes inactive.
We can only make correct decisions if the input is close. even a blind person CAN find their way out of a maze, even though he don,t see , he still knows.
Truth is the same. everyone wants the large pearl but there are not enough for every one (at this time). he who pays the piper calls the tune.

Originally posted by hooper
New unbiased investigation - be my guest. Have at it. Go for it. Do you need someone's permission? Unless you want the taxpayer to foot the bill and give you some kind of power. Then you're on your own.

NYCCAN is only a few steps away from putting a new investigation on the vote.

They need some financing, and specialists... but there are 1000's specialists in the truth movement, so they only need to call around.

Cant wait to hear the results

nyccan.org...

Originally posted by hooper
Unaswered questions - no.

Following the release of the 9/11 Commission’s Final Report on July 22, 2004, the Family Steering Committee determined that only 30% of its questions were adequately answered, leaving some 250 questions still unanswered. The Family Steering Committee has released a report rating the performance of the 9/11 Commission in answering each of its questions.

the report is here
nyccan.org...

This OP is a good point and the elephant in the room -- so to speak.

But there are other reasons that people hang out and refute things, that go beyond being a paid blogger. I might not like Obama 100%, because I think he is a decent Republican (and I was wanting a Democrat), and someone else, who was happy with George Bush wiping the floor with the Constitution, thinks he is a Socialist.

So when the dozen or so threads about Obama being a Kenyan come up -- I feel I've got to defend a last patch of Democracy and say; "You guys are nuts."

It isn't that I want to, or enjoy it, it's that I remember when George Bush supporters called everyone traitors who dared to question his judgement that there were WMDs, Saddam was connected to 9/11, or that "we don't do torture." I saw what happens if we don't stand up to bullies, even if they just discuss amongst themselves.


>> I am a "Truther" as opposed to an "Anti-truther" or a "Gov'ment BS believer." I didn't want to be. I suppose that some nay-sayers are here, to defend the last paradigm left for society.

But just on odds alone -- if the Bush administration was proven liars on everything they ever said, and we merely have the last two topics of Election Fraud, and they helped make 9/11 possible -- what are the chances that they didn't also lie about their involvement in the last two unproven lies that helped them a lot with the acquisition of power?


>> Now we have slightly more sophisticated stories, explaining what happened. Plausible shrugging about inaction as "it was bureaucracy." As if the solution were; let's have less. It's like saying; "the government didn't protects us from corporate polluters at the FDA and failed to test Chinese toys for lead paint -- so let's have less FDA." No, let's find us the rat-bastard who made sure a $10 test wasn't conducted on painted toys in 8 years and is probably making a 7-figure consulting fee for a Toy importer.

In other news, Dennis Hastert is making a 7-figure consulting fee with a Turkish company, for all his loyal help while he was in government.

The problem is corruption. If you just say; "well, these things happen." It lets the criminals off the hook.


>> The excuse is always made, that you couldn't get so many people in on a crime and keep them quiet, and such a thing couldn't be orchestrated.

I'm going to outline how I see the world and how common corruption could make relatively decent people, unwitting participants in great betrayal; the CIA and the Bush family (not innocent or decent), and the Neuvo-rich from war contracts Dick Cheney, have a working relationship -- long-time love affair.

Most people think of the CIA as a data collection group -- and it is true, that groups like Brewster Jennings, were doing work to make us safe. The corp-gov CIA however, compromises politicos in other countries as highlighted in the book; "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man." Presidente likes Unions and country's autonomy and wants a minimum wage -- Presidente dies in small plane crash. New candidate gets money and CIA-love interest, sees things our way. Military ends up being staffed at the top with people trained at our lovely "School of the Americas." Politico continues to see things our way, or is outed in a scandalous affair or falls out of the sky in a small/large plane accident -- you get the picture. Hugo Chavez, not an example of the perfect many, had two proven attempts by these "Jackals" -- so this isn't idle speculation. CIA no likely man who takes from corporate friends and gives to people.

Well don't feel bad -- it appears that according to FBI translator turned whistle-blower, Sibel Edmonds, Turkey was busy doing the same to our politicos. The fact that our justice department, media, and political bureaucracy seemed to collectively yawn and ignore her well documented and FBI corroborated deposition should indicate either or both of two things; this is the status quo, and/or, the people in charge are all compromised. If you have reading comprehension, it means that I said kind of the same thing twice.

People in the media have kids in Day Care with the Washington politicians they cover. They lose access and the key to the washroom if they go beyond giving a hard time to anyone who hasn't been thrown to the wolves. Two Florida Newspapers covered up a certain senators preference for Pages for 5 years. This is just what happens when you mingle and enjoy parties and a large paycheck from a media outlet that has connections to the same companies who lobby.

But when you have people who cover up for working for foreign government's -- then it's likely they are compromised too.

See, only a crook isn't worried when he hears his company is compromised by the mob.

>> When we string together other seemingly unrelated stories; The CIA and HS involved with Poker and Prostitutes at the Watergate Hotel. Death of the DC Madame. Alaskan Oil regulators having orgies and crack with the Oil company lobbyists they had oversight on; they weren't "in bed" with them -- they were straddling them on very expensive mahogany office furniture.

So Saudi Arabia, the Mossad, Turkey, China,... they are all compromising as many politicos, leaders and media pundits as they can get their hands on; there is probably a waiting list lined up around the block for money to cover gambling, sexual perversions, drug habits -- any weakness. We'd be stopping this, if it weren't the "working in the shadows" mentality, that we adopted at the top long ago.

I'm thinking, shortly after Al Capone, and Bobby Kennedy's unfortunate accident for being too rough on the mob, the CIA and the drug trafficking merged. And you can see the connection in the Carlysle Group board of directors, and maybe in a few think tanks and another head of this hydra on C-Street.

>> So we have this situation, where everybody keeps the down-low on corruption, because if you whine about Turkey owning Denny Hastert, then you have to point out the school kids that Lieberman likes provided by the Mossad (I don't really know about that last bit -- it's just a queasy feeling I get looking at the man and his loyalties).

9/11 was convenient to deal with the lack of demand in business, the collapse of the tech sector stocks, and to create a public works program, that entailed checking the shoes of old ladies at airports, rather than actually building things (that, of course, would be too much like FDR socialism for the Neocons involved). The Security business, picked up the slack for all those jobs that Globalization lost us in the name of efficiency and profit.

So when the head of security at the FAA gets a call and is told to destroy the records of calls after 9/11 -- he isn't thinking about Bin Laden, he's thinking about that great weekend he had with all his powerful friends on the Mariannas Islands doing all the things he's ever dreamed about (just as a for instance, again, I don't know anything). He has a nice position and un-questioned fun money, and he does a few favors now and then.

>> A lot of compromised people, doing a lot of little things that they feel guilty about. When it comes time to investigate -- EVERYONE has a guilty conscience -- because they've been doing favors for God knows who, without questioning WHY for years. Why was George Bush supported so well by the Senate and Congress when they all suspected he was either a fool or crook? Because he was a bigger crook than them. The justice department stopped looking at white collar crime or un-do influence of foreign governments or conflicts of interest. The only crime being prosecuted was disloyalty to the Bush mob.

Then Obama takes over the reigns, and FIRST THING, has to re-assure the CIA that we need to move on and not investigate anything. Because Obama wants to stay healthy, and maybe make a few reforms without making too many waves. He probably has little choice.

>> Our country is probably doomed, not because 9/11 happened, but that we cannot investigate it, and prove if even Bin Laden was involved, and we cannot investigate torture -- because it is a treaty that could mean Capital punishment for the guilty that we have to observe, but the guilty, probably knew a bit about Dennis Hastert. See how that works? If Dennis Hastert weren't selling out to Turkey, we could find out why Bush people were selling nuclear secrets to Pakistan and the Saudis.

You get the picture? It doesn't matter if Bin Laden did it. People in Washington are so corrupt, they don't know if it's their handler or a prank phone call telling them to stop health care reform. They don't know if the FBI provided a patsy and they don't care. They are in positions of power, because some other corrupt person who makes too much money put them there and they can keep their mouths shut. They want business as usual and to move forward without looking back.

We are near economic collapse right now, and the people who MIGHT do something abut that, energy policy, or the environment, are too busy lining their own pockets and CYA.


Are there people here, dedicated to ridiculing the truth? You Betcha. And one day, they will get some bit of power and money -- as made men. Because our government is mobbed up, and they can't trust people who don't behave.

Why do People who Ridicule Conspiracy Threorists Hang out in 911 Forums and on ATS?

there are paid shills..

iv'e noticed more of them this year.

Originally posted by conar

Originally posted by hooper
New unbiased investigation - be my guest. Have at it. Go for it. Do you need someone's permission? Unless you want the taxpayer to foot the bill and give you some kind of power. Then you're on your own.

NYCCAN is only a few steps away from putting a new investigation on the vote.

They need some financing, and specialists... but there are 1000's specialists in the truth movement, so they only need to call around.

Cant wait to hear the results

nyccan.org...

Yeah, good luck with that. So you want the government of the United States of America, with absolutely no legal precedent, to give Ed Asner the power to issue subpeonas and compel testimony. Oh, and even funnier than that - you want to call that an "independent" investigation.

First, I'd like to say that I like conspiracy theories.

Second, I think that the only way to develop and refine a theory is thru peer criticism.

So, I think that it is necessary to point out obvious errors or things that have already been proven wrong. It drives me crazy when I see something brought up again and again that has been proven false.

However, I don't think that personal attacks help an argument.

My question would be why do 911 truthers think they are any more correct than those of us who believe 911 was caused by a bunch of terrorists who hijacked the Muslim faith?

No one ever gives any real proof that it was a conspiracy. They are just a bunch of wild theories coming mostly from people with little knowledge and a lot of imagination.

How can someone be convinced that 911 was a government operation when the only "evidence" the truthers have are things like:
1. They demolished the towers with nano-thermite, but no truthers even know about how you detonate nano-thermite. I get the feeling that they are not even sure nano-thermite even exists.

2. The so-called explosions in the floors below the floors that are falling. These can easily be explained by air being compressed from the floors above falling and escaping through the weakest windows.

3. There werent really planes, it was a missle and the plane was a 3-D hologram. That is just laughable.



[edit on 16-9-2009 by HotDogNoBun]

*Note: I only saw this thread because it has made it's way onto the main page*

I'm amongst those who think most of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists are desperately grasping at straws, seeing one tiny "hole" in the official story and suddenly weaving the most ridiculous assumptions out of said "hole." I do not seek to discredit them because I learned long ago that, so set in their tunnel vision are they, that I'd have better luck breaking Mt Rushmore into rubble with my forehead than I would getting them to actually look at the big picture.

So, aside from a small handfull of accidental posts in the 9/11 forum by me, entirely on threads that had made their way to the main page, I have a self-imposed bannishment from the 9/11 forum. Honestly, it took me realizing that allowing all of the (IMO) sheep in that fourm to spout their group think doesn't impact me in any way whatsoever to let me avoid that forum without any regrets. I will, however, slap some leather when those folks seem to think they have some justification to take their (again, IMO) nonsense outside the 9/11 forum.

Now, I have a question for you, OP. Why is it that so many on ATS seem to think that 9/11 makes the entire conspiracy theory/The Truth is Out There movement a zero sum game? For example, I happen to believe that our government lies like all hell to us, I believe the current depression was manufactured in part by our own government, I believe there is an NWO, I believe in ghosts and goverups of paranormal evidence, I believe in UFOs and government coverups thereof, I believe in the "Grassy Knoll," I believe that there is a contigency plan that includes FEMA camps in the United States, and I believe that Monsanto has paid our elected officials off to ensure that in the future all food runs through their GMO deathcamps... yet time after time I have seen myself referred to as a "sheep" or even as a PTB "plant" who is on ATS to spread the government's lies. WHY? Because I actually believe that terrorists did attack the US on 9/11 and they did so on their own volition? This idea that the CT world revolves around accepting every alternative theory is just so George Noory and C2C AM that it boggles my mind. If you wish to understand my frustration and my point of view, look at it this way... imagine that suddenly there was a great contingency on ATS which said "If you don't believe in Blossom Goodchild, your opinion doesn't matter on ATS and you're clearly a provacateur." Now, if you actually imagine that scenario in good faith you might understand a bit about some of us who are here believing in alternative theories on topics OTHER THAN 9/11. Personally speaking, the whole GFL/Blossom Goodchild nonsense was about as merit filled as many of the 9/11 conspiracy threads I've read, so imagine how frustrating it would be to have your motives, integrity, and even honesty questioned if you dared not to buy into the GFL fiasco.

reply to post by CaptainAmerica2012


You need them, Captain America,

You, yourself need to attempt to disprove your hypotheses, having debate and opposing point of view are important.
wiki.answers.com...

It is fine to have an idea about how or why something is the way it is, but the scientist should then seek to prove or disprove this "hypothesis" and should then be willing to change their ideas depending on the results of their experiments, rather than to continue believing in their original idea even if the evidence of their experiments is sticking up against it.

1.Keen Observer

2.creative

3.patient

4.curious

5.humble

6.intellectually honest

7.objective

8.Aware of the limitations of Science

9.Persevering

10.Open minded

A scientist is open-minded and free of bias, do you fit these qualifications?

Originally posted by hooper
Twenty years from now I would like to see the term "inside job" as synonymous with "tin foil caps". I don't want some high school freshman in ten years doing research on 9/11 for a school paper and think for one moment that persons in his own country, dedicated to protecting him and his future, were capable, willing and able to commit acts of mass murder of their fellow countryman.

How about Waco? You must have heard about it, it was on all the tv stations.