Today is a Day of Rememberance So Let Us Remember

Excerpt from Patrick Henry's Siren's speech

No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope that it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen, if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve.

This is no time for ceremony. The question before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty towards the majesty of heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren, till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation?

For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth -- to know the worst and to provide for it. I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided; and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years, to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House?

**************************************

We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves longer.

Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament.

Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne. In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope.

If we wish to be free -- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending -- if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained, we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of Hosts is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak -- unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance, by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot?

Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of the means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. Three millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us.

The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable -- and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come!

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, "Peace! Peace!" -- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!

Patrick Henry - March 23, 1775

I realize it is easy to sit back and believe everything that our political leaders tell you because you love your country and you want to believe they have your best interests at heart. Our forefathers loved their country, too. However, the time has come when we need to question strongly even that which seems too horrific to be true. Perhaps we will find out that we were wrong. I hope that is the case. I honestly do.

But give us our day of questions. Answer them. The blood of patriots has been spilled. Let's not allow partisan differences to keep us from ensuring that their deaths had meaning.

reply to post by A Fortiori


Nice tribute.

They will be remembered.

reply to post by A Fortiori


Yeah, nice tribute. Light thousands of candles, agonize how our pain is so much more important than all the other suffering and murder we cause in the world. I will never forget how we can't get over ourselves.

plucky

reply to post by pluckynoonez

It is also important to remember plucky, that all these judgements you like to make, when it comes right down to it, are judgements, about yourself. It is YOU who cannot get over YOURself, and if you avatar is any indication, that's a an accurate evaluation.



I am mourning today for this one man who was recorded speaking to the 911 operator, trapped in the north tower - his name was Kevin Cosgrove.





[edit on 11-9-2009 by OmegaPoint]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/85be8a297b65.jpeg[/atsimg]

To be an American on this day is one of the hardest things ever, because today is a day in history that should be remembered where three buildings were destroyed by three planes, while one plane missed its target, and another building seemingly fell of its own volition, according the official version of the story.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/bbdcab4d953e.jpeg[/atsimg]

No matter what particular version you care to consider, the memory of those people who were innocents caught in the collapasing buildings should be remembered as victims of foul play which was acted upon by some heinous, callous, and salaciously evil people.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/35a9105bad2f.jpg[/atsimg]

Those victims will always be in our hearts and minds, as people caught in the middle of a needless war between idiots on both sides who could neither agree nor agree to disagree, and walk the path of peace instead choosing a path of war and cold-bloodedly murdering those individuals who died that day.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1d6372fa5692.jpg[/atsimg]

Mass murder is still murder, and someone must pay, no matter which version you believe.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/30e47717d3af.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 11-9-2009 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

reply to post by OmegaPoint


I am not stopping anyone from mourning, all I am saying is that we pedestal our agony over the agony of the entire world. Our policies butchered men and women and children of East Timor (for example) for years, yet, no coverage for those lost there. I guess gunning-down innocent and unarmed mountain people is not something to get sad about. So, go ahead and light a candle for that one person who made a phone call, and turn a blind-eye to all the misery in the world that we are responsible for.

Originally posted by pluckynoonez
reply to post by A Fortiori

 

Yeah, nice tribute. Light thousands of candles, agonize how our pain is so much more important than all the other suffering and murder we cause in the world. I will never forget how we can't get over ourselves.

plucky

Our pain? Is it possible that you not be two-dimensional? My point was that throughout the ages, in the US and abroad, the brave sacrificed their lives over ideas; that an idea of freedom was important enough to die for.

You know nothing at all about me, so please do not condescend to speak to me about the suffering and murder we cause. I work in global relief. I know what suffering looks like and I don't diminish it by making plucky remarks from my computer chair. People everywhere want freedom. Once upon a time we did stand for something. People used to believe in us, as imperfect as we are. You don't know how often I would show up and hear: The Americans are here!

We fall so short of what we once stood for, but if we stand up now that does not have to be. We can change. We can turn things around by being true to the people who sacrificed for us.

When I say "Patriot" I do not only speak of the Marines in Iraq, but the Dr Kings of this world--those brave souls that stood up to tyrants and the mob of public opinion and called for us to become our better angels.

[edit on 11-9-2009 by A Fortiori]

reply to post by A Fortiori


"Better angels", how's that working out so far? Dr. King was a pacifist and was ultimately killed for what he believed. So, yeah, I am sure Dr. King would be so proud that we started wars after September 11th...or, that would be Malcolm X, he was an eye-for-an-eye kind of guy.

The "ideas" of freedom of which you speak is pure propaganda. Under the guise of "freedom" we rape and murder and pillage, 'tis nothing new. (Remember, the "Department of Defense" used to be called the "Department of War".) To say that somehow "freedom's on the march!" (a Bush line) is foolhardy. This world is on the brink because we advance violence and intolerance, and if you do not think so you are listening to too much Sean Hannity. America is not a beacon of liberty.

Give this book a read and get back to me...

www.amazon.com...

Originally posted by pluckynoonez
reply to post by A Fortiori

 

"Better angels", how's that working out so far? Dr. King was a pacifist and was ultimately killed for what he believed. So, yeah, I am sure Dr. King would be so proud that we started wars after September 11th...or, that would be Malcolm X, he was an eye-for-an-eye kind of guy.

Are you that limited in what constitutes "patriot" that you truly believe that you cannot be a patriot and a pacifist? Dr King called for us to return to our ideals, our founding truths. Read his speeches before you suggest that he was not a patriot.

Moreover, he knew that he would be killed and continued to speak out, so as for "how that's working out for him" my initial thoughts are to tell you to: "pound sand".

To believe in something so sincerely that you are willing to die for it is a faith and a will that is far greater than you can comprehend, and your snark is not only completely inappropriate but shows an immaturity that I hope you get a handle on very quickly.

The "ideas" of freedom of which you speak is pure propaganda.

As all ideas are.

Under the guise of "freedom" we rape and murder and pillage, 'tis nothing new.

What's this "we"? Speak for yourself. Under the guise of freedom I have done none of these things. In fact, I speak up and say loudly: Not in the name of false patriotism, false freedom will we do these things.

Do I have to be proud of America's imperialism to post this thread? No. If you think that you are missing the point of it. Perhaps, read first then take a deep breath before you type.

What I was trying to say is that we had a great promise and it was lost to false leaders and the frailties of human nature, but that it doesn't have to always be so.

(Remember, the "Department of Defense" used to be called the "Department of War".) To say that somehow "freedom's on the march!" (a Bush line) is foolhardy. This world is on the brink because we advance violence and intolerance, and if you do not think so you are listening to too much Sean Hannity. America is not a beacon of liberty.

Read any post of mine, ask any "Republican" on here and they will tell you that I am not a fan of Bush, that I am not a fan of Sean Hannity and have been quite vocal about all of them.

If you want to talk about intolerance, first, look up the definition. Please do not lecture me about violence and intolerance when I can almost guarantee that you have not stepped foot out of this country to even see the effects American foreign policy has on the third world. Have you worked with the Sudanese? Have you been to Iraq? Have you you been to Afghanistan? Have you been to any of these places? Have you risked your life at all for the sake of a belief that the world can be better?

When you have, then we'll talk because our point of reference might then be remotely close.

Give this book a read and get back to me...

www.amazon.com...

After you read this:

www.amazon.com...

reply to post by A Fortiori


When did I say Dr. King was not a patriot? Although I must say that Dr. King was for something much more greater than any flag-waving banner carried in by an eagle.

We are responsible for the foreign policies that have been carried out by our elected officials. By doing nothing, we all have blood on our hands. It is astounding to me that you think somehow America and its people are somehow absolved of guilt in the butchering of people around the globe.

And your cute book on manners is most likely a good read, but more of a jab at me, attempting to indicate that I have a child-like intellect. Such insults bring more attention to you as a rhetor than they do me, so try again.

Originally posted by pluckynoonez
reply to post by A Fortiori

 

When did I say Dr. King was not a patriot? Although I must say that Dr. King was for something much more greater than any flag-waving banner carried in by an eagle.

"How's that working out for him"

That is just rude and if you thought that little diddy would demonstrate that you felt he was, in fact, a patriot then rethink the strategy.

We are responsible for the foreign policies that have been carried out by our elected officials.

We are responsible for ourselves and our own actions and inaction, we have a duty to try and change the country that we live in.

By doing nothing, we all have blood on our hands.

And what have you done, exactly, but grossly misinterpret the intentions of others at the expense of garnering a thoughtful coalition? Have you gone to East Timor? Have you worked in the Sudan?

It is astounding to me that you think somehow America and its people are somehow absolved of guilt in the butchering of people around the globe.

Um whatever magic mirror you have that is interpreting my thoughts for you ought to be sent back for reconditioning. Where did I say we were absolved of guilt for what we allow to continue?

I'll tell you quite plainly what I believe. I am not responsible for what happened in America's past, nor am I responsible for the actions of others under the mantle of politics, ideology, country, or religion. I am responsible for what I do or don't do. Nothing else.

If I do nothing to try and change the momentum then I am guilty.

And your cute book on manners is most likely a good read, but more of a jab at me, attempting to indicate that I have a child-like intellect.

No, I was referencing your obvious lack of manners. You put words in my mouth, you used a really unkind snark about Dr King (how's that working out for him)... I don't know about you, but that is not good manners to me.

Such insults bring more attention to you as a rhetor than they do me, so try again.

As a "rhetor"? What does that mean. Try again.

reply to post by A Fortiori



I said "'Better angels', how's that working out so far?" Meaning, how is the "vision" and "ideas" working out so far with all the wars we no have in place. Perhaps I should've started a new paragraph so you wouldn't get lost.

I haven't been to all the places you have been, so you can keep screaming "you don't know!" if you want, you must be better than me, more worldly, more skilled at cricket, who knows? I bow to your excellence, you seem to want people to acknowledge that you are so smart.

A "rhetor" is a orator, someone who uses language to induce cooperation. The definition of rhetoric is: the use of shared symbols to induce cooperation. "Rhetors" are those that use symbols (language) in an effort to persuade. You can google it, or if it is too much work, just click here

www.yourdictionary.com...



[edit on 11-9-2009 by pluckynoonez]

Originally posted by pluckynoonez
reply to post by A Fortiori

 

I said "'Better angels', how's that working out so far?" Meaning, how is the "vision" and "ideas" working out so far with all the wars we no have in place. Perhaps I should've started a new paragraph so you wouldn't get lost.

Or better yet, you could have kept the snark to yourself? It was inappropriate, unless you were wiling to elaborate.

I haven't been to all the places you have been, so you can keep screaming "you don't know!"

I screamed nothing.

if you want, you must be better than me, more worldly, more skilled at cricket, who knows? I bow to your excellence, you seem to want people to acknowledge that you are so smart.

I'm sorry, but you decided to post with wild assumptions of what I was intending, allocated words and thoughts that I did not espouse, and then brought up that inactivity of people in support of these global causes to someone that is actively involved in global relief.

You simply cannot go around making assumptions about people, insult them, and then expect them not to question you and your presumptions.

In essence, what are you doing?

A "rhetor" is a orator, someone who uses language to induce cooperation. The definition of rhetoric is: the use of shared symbols to induce cooperation. "Rhetors" are those that use symbols (language) in an effort to persuade. You can google it, or if it is too much work, just click here

www.yourdictionary.com...

[edit on 11-9-2009 by pluckynoonez]

I know what "rhetor" and "rhetoric" means. My point is what do you mean? What "rhetoric" am I espousing? You are the one with rhetoric. You bounce on her with fabricated straw men and then accuse me of "artificiality"?

Do you not see where you have been rude and insulting?

You purposefully misinterpreted the point of my post so that you could grandstand on the evils of empire-building as if that was not an implied purpose of my original post. Have you tried using a less judgmental approach? You might find people respond better. People do not like other to put words in their mouths and interpret the thoughts in their head.

[edit on 11-9-2009 by A Fortiori]

EDIT: Look, I realize that the US government has done hideous things across the globe. And I don't want to argue with you when we are obvious both emotional on the subject. We can agree that the US has not lived up to its potential? Y/N

My original point was that we can look for inspiration from the past and change how passive we are, how accepting we are, and make a difference now.

Can we agree on that? Y/N

We can both agree, can we not, that it is unwise to rush to judgment about other posters...Y/N?

Then we can call a truce and speak pleasantly...yes?

*extends hand*

[edit on 11-9-2009 by A Fortiori]

reply to post by A Fortiori


Rhetoric has been given bad connotations by politicians speaking double-talk. The saying "that's just rhetoric" has been popularized as a way of saying a person is filled with purple-prose and dribble. I defined rhetoric for you so it should clear. But, again, it means someone arranging language in an attempt to persuade. It is a craft as old as prostitution. Why do I feel like I have to reinvent the wheel with every response in this thread? So, for the record: rhetoric is good, part of human creativity. I was not saying that you dribble purple-prose.

You can also continue to shine on that we Americans are absolved of any guilt in the misery that our elected officials spread throughout the world. You seem to not want to go there, you are more interested in the fact that we were all born on the fourth of July apparently.

So, sorry to ruin your "America is the best!" thread, but I beg to differ. The "ideas" in place today are saturated with apathy, which is evidenced by your candle-for-every-victim-of-9/11 attitude.

Originally posted by pluckynoonez
reply to post by A Fortiori

 

Rhetoric has been given bad connotations by politicians speaking double-talk. The saying "that's just rhetoric" has been popularized as a way of saying a person is filled with purple-prose and dribble. I defined rhetoric for you so it should clear. But, again, it means someone arranging language in an attempt to persuade. It is a craft as old as prostitution. Why do I feel like I have to reinvent the wheel with every response in this thread? So, for the record: rhetoric is good, part of human creativity. I was not saying that you dribble purple-prose.

Okay, this was unnecessary. I took Latin and Greek (see handle). Yes, I understand the ancient definitions, but that was not how it was implied. When you accuse someone of propaganda why would they assume you meant something different than the more modern definition?

You can also continue to shine on that we Americans are absolved of any guilt in the misery that our elected officials spread throughout the world.

What in the world are you talking about?????? Did I say we were absolved? I believe I said that we are responsible for what we do now. If I did not feel a responsibility to make America live up to its promise I wouldn't have started this thread.

You seem to not want to go there, you are more interested in the fact that we were all born on the fourth of July apparently.

*sigh*

Okay, I give. I love George Bush. America is the best. *waves flag* I am a Yankee Doodle Dandy.

So, sorry to ruin your "America is the best!" thread, but I beg to differ. The "ideas" in place today are saturated with apathy, which is evidenced by your candle-for-every-victim-of-9/11 attitude.

Explain how it was a candle for every victim thread! I'm done with the placating your temper tantrum. I put Patrick Henry's speech in there because I want to call upon Americans to stand up to their government the way he stood up to Britain. To ask the government to stand accountable for 9-11 and what happened that day, to ask why we are in Iraq, and to do it for the sake of those people who die every day because they swore the same oaths as those prevaricators in Washington. Why are they the only ones to sacrifice?

How you can so purposefully misunderstand me I do not know!

reply to post by A Fortiori


I am not angry, we just butt-heads, obviously. We are opposite personalities, which makes communication difficult. I have said my piece and would rather get off this merry-go-round, so best of luck to you and all that.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


Thank you for your reply. Since 911 there are many who have lost their loved ones. I feel for the many people who lost their loved ones on 911, the first responders who were told by the EPA that the air was safe and all of the military spouses who have lost their mates in the wars which have resulted from 911. I am also sadden for all the children who have lost one of their parents who will always question to the why. I also wonder what the future history books will tell us about what really happened and why so many people had to suffer because of the evils people who caused 911 to happen no matter what their reasons were.

reply to post by IceHappy


Not a problem.

I wanted to say my piece, on peace about a day of tragic events, no matter the man pulling the strings.

To me it is still a day to be remembered, for those slain, they will not be forgotten.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


I agree. That was what I was attempting, I suppose ineptly, to do with this. I wanted to remind people that we began as a nation of feisty people that stood firm against a corrupt government.