Fairy tales have ancient origin

reply to post by cindymars


That is not because society keeps men from being rape machines we would otherwise be like you seem to infer that we are.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by cindymars

 

Cindy, that depends on the culture. Did you read Frateromos's post?

As you can see the Celts had a much different society.

No I had missed it but just read it, to me it just confirms what I am saying.
Those Celts were a bit barbaric.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by cindymars

 

That is not because society keeps men from being rape machines we would otherwise be like you seem to infer that we are.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Going back, I said because we humans have varying degree's of conscious awareness. You might not be, many might not be, but many would if they could. Just my opinion.

reply to post by cindymars


By your standards perhaps but these things are subjective you must admit.

reply to post by cindymars


Because a few of us are very screwed up destructive animals. And you are of course allowed your opinion. But it seems a little slanted to me...... Women can rape and brutalise too you know.


[edit on 9-9-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by cindymars

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by cindymars

 

Cindy, that depends on the culture. Did you read Frateromos's post?

As you can see the Celts had a much different society.

No I had missed it but just read it, to me it just confirms what I am saying.
Those Celts were a bit barbaric.

Yes, but you see that Older girls initiated the boys sexually, and Older boys initiated the girls sexually. Men taught the Women hot to fight and Women taught the Men how to fight.

Barbaric or not.. it was rather egalitarian.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by cindymars

 

Because a few of us are very screwed up destructive animals. And you are of course allowed your opinion. But it seems a little slanted to me...... Women can rape and brutalise too you know.


[edit on 9-9-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Seriously in Africa there so many women raping and brutalizing men, in Afghanistan the women are really putting the hurt on the Taliban.


Ok I can understand if I were a male I would not like this line of thinking. I am sorry. Like I said I earlier I believe that I have been a man in other existances, I am only driving a girl car. Yes I can be very aggressive.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


I found the origin of the story fascinating and good to know. Thanks to the poster, sorry forgot your name. So we disagree, I guess.

Hope you guys understand I went out there for discussions sake, I could have kept a lid on it like I usually do to avoid confrontation.

reply to post by cindymars


Your stereotyping. I am sorry but that is what I am seeing.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


I was just sharing my feelings and opinions, sorry did not mean to offend.
This is why I don't participate more in threads.
Plus I have my personal reasons that I will not mention but I think you would understand.

reply to post by cindymars


I can guess. But that doesn't make it right. And by all means share your opinions but be prepared for someone to say something especially on opinions like this. It's sad that such things happen and I would be one of the first advocating slowly ripping the balls off any guy who does such things. Such things are not nature but usually twisted nurture.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Yes, but you see that Older girls initiated the boys sexually, and Older boys initiated the girls sexually. Men taught the Women hot to fight and Women taught the Men how to fight.

Barbaric or not.. it was rather egalitarian.

Actually it wasn't just egalitarian but efficacious.

Who would you want to train you in combat? Would you want someone who has never picked up a sword to teach you? Would you want someone who had never seen battle before to you teach you? If your life depends on whether you live or die in combat, you want someone with the most experience to teach you!

The Celts considered the same of Sex (their goddess of War was also the goddess of Sex). They considered those with the greatest experience to be the ideal teachers.

There is a certain amount of logic to that reasoning.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


Well I was not raped. What happened to me happened to a 3 year old child.


I do not think all men are rapist but that rape is nature was my point.

reply to post by cindymars


And I pointed out that is not true. Shall we drop it? And my comments about ball ripping. Well, very much applies to a guy that would do that to t a 3 year old. And then some.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by cindymars
This may be very controversial? I think the story is deeply entrenched in sex as a brutal albeit natural act. All animal sex is rape more or less; the lion doesn’t ask the lioness out for dinner and a drink, he just takes it. I think it is nature, thanks to conscious awareness that humans possess to varying degrees, we rise a bit above our nature.

Didn't the film 'Company of Wolves' do a more explicit version of the Red Riding Hood story? I am not sure that I would agree though that 'animal sex' is essentially rape, it depends upon the animal of course, but when rape does occur in animals it is generally quite brutal, just look at walruses. With animals, there is a straightforward exchange when they agree to mate, each know precisely their role, no emotion, simple functional necessity. The lion does not take it, the lioness lets him take it because she knows it is in her best interest to do so.

What Little Red Riding Hood teaches us, is that the male (wolf) will use sweet words and deception to get us to believe that it is in our best interest to mate with him, when in fact he has no intention of honouring his side of the bargain. False promises and the loosening of virtues, we might not consider it rape today, but we nolonger consider (most of us) daughters the property of their fathers either and no virginity meant a poor dowry. Rape was in the old days, more of a crime against property than a violation of a woman.

Originally posted by cindymars
Being a female and especially a little girl, we can be vulnerable and therefore this story carries a lot of weight for me.

I was thinking about the famous speech by Queen Elizabeth the first given to her troops at Tilbury, it culminates in 'I may have the body of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the heart and stomach of a King.' It made me realise how important the structure of a sentence is to conveying your message. If you turn it around - I may have the heart and stomach of a King, but I have the body of a weak and feeble woman - it changes completely. From defiance to defeatism.

reply to post by shamhat


Point taken.
I agree to drop it.

I was trying to think of the name of that movie, I even did a google search and couldn't find it.

But I think the simularities between some fairy tales is perhaps a sign of more contact between cultures then currently we think happend.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
But I think the simularities between some fairy tales is perhaps a sign of more contact between cultures then currently we think happend.

Good point.

It does bring up the question of whether it is due to a Common Cultural Origin or a matter of Common Archetypes in the Human Psyche.

We forget that Human Civilization (as we would recognize it) is only about 37,000 years old. Language and Writing are far younger than that even. The concept of Story Telling and the use of Fables younger still.

Some cultures did travel far and wide. The Dorian Greeks, the Celts, the Norse, the Egyptians, the Phoenicians, the Mongols, all had wide-spread Empires and routinely traveled far from their homes to either conquer or explore the world. Even those that carried the banner of war still would have picked up stories along the way and shared their own stories with different cultures.

However, Jungian Psychologists and Depth Psychologists both might beg to differ that it has more to do with symbolic Archetypes than to Cultural Anthropology, and there is indeed merit to that. There are many things in our stories that are based upon the Human Condition through allegory and symbolism that can be found ubiquitously throughout all Cultures, ancient and modern.

It is difficult to say which is right, especially if those stories were carried to other cultures long before they were ever written down.

Originally posted by fraterormus
The concept of Story Telling and the use of Fables younger still.

I would tend to disagree, a little, the concept of storytelling is I think as old as we as a species are, storytelling, or the need to explain events that we didn't understand, was integral to our intellectual development as a species. We certainly would have had storytellers when we were living a nomadic lifestyle, cave paintings are 'stories' too. Stories, passed by word of mouth, change a little with each telling. Remember, they weren't exactly spoilt for choice in the entertainment department, it was sitting around telling stories or whittling wood most nights I would have thought. Maybe a bit of doodling at the weekend.

It wasn't until the advent of the written word and too many conquests to mention, that we started to get all niggly about the details and argued whose version was the correct one. But I should imagine that our early ancestors were inspired by the same things, the stars, the moon, the sun etc, and as time goes on those stories branch off, have sequels, spawn mini-series, get remade or dubbed into Sanskrit.

Fables, or moral tales, are, I would agree a more modern adaptation and demonstrate a departure from nature, and towards more structured and governed societies. They serve to entertain and, teach norms and values.

very interesting......