wmd's in Iraq, someone help me here

I have no doubt that Iraq had them before we invaded. I truly believe there is a good bit of evidence that they ended up in Syria, lebanon, etc... before we got there. my question is why are we not moving on in the process of locating and eradicating these weapons? I am not an intellectual by any means & dont claim to have all the answers, just a concerned individual that is tired of feeling like the government I help fund is jerking me around. I would like to thank you all for the posts that stimulate and open my mind to many possibilities.

"just a concerned individual that is tired of feeling like the government I help fund is jerking me around."

Yep, you're being jerked around. If they had all that satellite photo-imagery and intel and they were SO sure that the WMDs were there, they would've found them by now. You can't stick these into a lunchpail and smuggle it across the border.

Plus, no way in HELL any Middle Eastern country would collude with Saddam ESPECIALLY when it comes to WMDs. They know what would happen to them if it was found out.

They aren't looking too hard.
They aren't even properly guarding the materials the UN already knew about.
Some of the weapons related material the UN was tracking before the invasion is now missing.
IAEA

The Agency is concerned about the implications of the results of its review of satellite imagery, especially with respect to sites known to the Agency to have contained items subject to monitoring under the OMV plan. The imagery shows that there has been extensive removal of equipment and, in some instances, removal of entire buildings. Other information available to the Agency, confirmed through visits to other countries, indicates that large quantities of scrap, some of it contaminated, have been transferred out of Iraq, from sites monitored by the IAEA.

They found some scrap metal in a Rotterdam-based scrap metal company that had yellowcake in it. They say they bought it from a guy in Jordan. It seems like some of the Iraqis are more interested in the scrap value of weapons rather than military uses for them.
Fox News

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by AceOfBase]

Originally posted by Jakomo

Yep, you're being jerked around. If they had all that satellite photo-imagery and intel and they were SO sure that the WMDs were there, they would've found them by now. You can't stick these into a lunchpail and smuggle it across the border.

But they could put them in a hole the size of a swimming pool in a country the size of California.... And you know how many pools are in California!

Plus, no way in HELL any Middle Eastern country would collude with Saddam ESPECIALLY when it comes to WMDs. They know what would happen to them if it was found out.

Why not - it is not so hard to smugle things. Other countries smugle things into/out of the US all the time, so how hard would it be to do it in the middle east? All you have to do is deny it, then the US has to invade to prove it, which they won't because A) the US military is stretched thin as it is and B) the world is so pissed at us for Iraq that it wouldn't be doable on a political level.

thats it, I'm moving to Canada

I dont agree that other countries wouldnt collude with Saddam on this...who says it couldnt be individual elements operating in a country that are not state sponsored.

Ace that worries me even more....maybe I should just stop at ignorance is bliss like most of the U.S. is doing

American Mad Man: "But they could put them in a hole the size of a swimming pool in a country the size of California.... And you know how many pools are in California!"

Really? I wasn't aware you could just put VX nerve gas into a 55gallon drum and bury it in the desert without it quickly degrading.... Chemical and biological weapons are kept under strict temperature controls, and usually stored in state-of-the-art facilities. They also have half-lifes. As in, they degrade and lose their effectiveness over time. VX is about 4 months and I believe Sarin is a little longer at 8 months.

And NUCLEAR weapons? Give me a geiger counter and I could find nuclear weapons in the dark. There's none.

"Why not - it is not so hard to smugle things. Other countries smugle things into/out of the US all the time, so how hard would it be to do it in the middle east? All you have to do is deny it, then the US has to invade to prove it, which they won't because A) the US military is stretched thin as it is and B) the world is so pissed at us for Iraq that it wouldn't be doable on a political level"

No it can't be easily done. You're talking about huge convoys of trucks crossing borders. The mistrust and suspicion that Saddam engendered from his neighbors would preculde any teaming up. If they had all these pics of facilities and trucks and stuff (like Colin Powell's UN presentation) they would EASILY be able to track large convoys of trucks leaving Iraq and crossing into other countries. And the choices for Iraq are limited. No way can they use Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia.

I still think this was a sham war, that there were no WMDs because it's been a YEAR of occupation and nothing has been found to justify the invasion of Iraq. There was no threat from them to the US. None.

As much as you have debated, argued, and presented Jako, you still have not conclusively disproven the whereabouts of those still UN and world community reports and documents regarding Saddam's and Iraq's unaccounted for WMDs.

Nice try though. Btw, did you know that even your beloved Mr. Blix had subordinates (two as matter of fact) on Saddam's payroll? No wonder he has retired and even more interesting, is that because of such, this may discredit or place serious doubts on his 'own' findings and say, again, in regards to Saddam's/Iraq's WMD's that he claims were 'this and that'....


seekerof

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Jakomo

Really? I wasn't aware you could just put VX nerve gas into a 55gallon drum and bury it in the desert without it quickly degrading.... Chemical and biological weapons are kept under strict temperature controls, and usually stored in state-of-the-art facilities. They also have half-lifes. As in, they degrade and lose their effectiveness over time. VX is about 4 months and I believe Sarin is a little longer at 8 months.

Yes you are right, they would degrade, and would be stored in different containers the 55 gallon drums. But if you were a leader of a country being invaded because you had these weapons wouldn't you want to hide them? I believe it would make more sense to lose them and not be caught with them then to keep them and be caught with them.

And NUCLEAR weapons? Give me a geiger counter and I could find nuclear weapons in the dark. There's none.

I do not believe that nuclear weapons were our main concern, however - I challenge your assertion that you could find any nuke in Iraq with a geiger counter. The country is huge dude!

No it can't be easily done. You're talking about huge convoys of trucks crossing borders. The mistrust and suspicion that Saddam engendered from his neighbors would preculde any teaming up. If they had all these pics of facilities and trucks and stuff (like Colin Powell's UN presentation) they would EASILY be able to track large convoys of trucks leaving Iraq and crossing into other countries. And the choices for Iraq are limited. No way can they use Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia.

Huge convoys of trucks? Not really - you'd only need a few, like 3-5. a few to carry the weapons, and a few as an escort. Why wouldn't a nieghbor welcome his weapons - it was clear to all he was going to be invaded, and incase you didn't notice, American hatred would superced past differences over there.

may i point the attention to these facts:

-transports with tons of gold to driection syria.

-about 50 laptop look a like atomic bombs missing from
russian inventories.

-irak had put under the desertsand for milions of dollars miltary jetplanes.

-the desert is so enormous big that it is unlikely that one can trace,pinpoint and find back something buried under the sand in a range of 10 by 10 meters for example !

maybe (and i am very cautious here) by complete stupidity of irak military or by sheer luck we will find what will be weapons of mass destructions !!

but anyway do we recognise the womd at first sight ??
no because ingredients can be bought at different spots on the globe !!
-ingedrient A could have been shipped in drums from germany
-ingredient B could have been bought in australia and shipped in bulk.
-ingredient C could have been shipped as airmail package from ukraina.
individual they seem not harmfull but used together to make a womd weapon....they are bloody harmfull.

and most horrifying... it was in the usa itself that most of the bandits/enemies have followed training and education !! military secrets given away as just like candy to a baby !!
the enemy was and is still within the usa...
and that is really a bad omen.


catch my drift ??

Metal, remember, we allowed Hussein many many months to relocate, hide and give these items away, not to mention destroy those which could not be removed.

Satellite recon is only so good, is not continuous and a lot depends upon the analysts. Our humintel was not there at all, and that was a very bad thing.

As far as smuggling the items across the border, everyday tons of drugs and other items come across our border, and we are one of the most advanced nations. Surely nobody doubts that Hussein had the weapons, and surely nobody honestly doubts those weapons could not be moved out of country. Heck, they made a joke out of playing hide and seek when the U.N. inspectors were on the ground!

As far as going after the weapons in other countries such as Iran or Syria, just how stretched out do you want the military? It just isn't possible. You also have to remember that the Arab nations have no love for a non-Islamic nation, especially one that is supposed to be a Christian nation. Bite off more than we can chew and they'll insure we choke on it.

I'm not saying stretch the military out any more but move them. we were there for the weapons but the weapons moved....we follow them. I hear on a daily basis from every Democrat on the planet that Saddam didnt have them & hear from tons of morons who believe them...Iraq can take care of itself now, lets not lose focus, Saddam is gone & the weapons are gone then we should be gone.

You know many have argued about this for a long time. I once belived Iraq had them and were plotting with terrorists. I watched when Colin Powell presented his satellite evidence to the U.N. Remeber when he showed the big building being destroyed by the iraqi's to hide evidence before the u.n. came, and the trucks hauling off the dirt? Pretty convicing huh?

Well I change my mind one day when I watched the Daily Show. I don't know why I didn't think of it before. Jon Stewart said 7 words that changed my mind. "Why don't you just follow the trucks?"

If we have all these high tech satellites and survelince equipment and seem them deconstructing weapons creation sites and removing the dirt why didn't we follow the trucks and see where they dumped the dirt and stuff. Just asking.

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by Hoppinmad1]

You can't make a satellite follow a bunch of trucks, you have to wait for the satellites to realign with the target to take some pictures...its not like the whole sky of the Middle east is riddled with U.S satellites...

There are over 50 satellites aiding in the war in Iraq. If that isn't riddled then what is? If you had sattelite photo's of these trucks moving material wouldn't it be wise if you wanted to prove your case to use manned or unmanned spy planes also?

If you had pictures of the trucks picking up these so called banned materials I think it would be top priortiy to see where they dumped it. If we seen where they dumped it why haven't we found any evidence of wmds yet.

We also have drones and such and I am sure we have satellites in geo stationary orbit over iraq. These don't have to reposition they stay over the target at all times. Common sense has gotta apply here.

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Hoppinmad1]

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Hoppinmad1]

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Hoppinmad1]

There are things that you could smuggle across the border in a lunchpail that would astonish you!

Like paperwork for example. The evidence!

Originally posted by metalmessiah
thats it, I'm moving to Canada

I dont agree that other countries wouldnt collude with Saddam on this...who says it couldnt be individual elements operating in a country that are not state sponsored.

Ace that worries me even more....maybe I should just stop at ignorance is bliss like most of the U.S. is doing

No no not Canada. You would attract too much attention to us. Ofcourse other countries have colluded with Saddam...like for example... Arab countries...like attracts to like, you know? And don't worry about the ignorance is bliss thing. It really is. Keep on.

[Edited on 5/17/2004 by SamaraMorgueAnn]

may i advise the cameraman to make a 2nd version of the footage like this:

-scenes filmed from inside the car set lens at wide or medium angle please and do not use zoom.

-go to a higherspot and put camera on tripod and use zoom to get best teleshot and make a slow pan of the landscape at area 51. do not use zooming while the pan is made !

-if filming a scene when walking put cameraangle at wide and certainly do not use zoom option when walking or just standing still with shaking hands.

only in "emergency snapshot situations" a n y t h i n g
is allowed but... if you have the oportunity to work at ease for the scenes you want to make...do it as neat and clean as you can please )

thanks SMA, thats what I was looking for....a sarcastic and inhospitable Canadian....probably French Canadian too huh?

nogodsintheuniverse what the hell are you talking about?

Originally posted by metalmessiah
thanks SMA, thats what I was looking for....a sarcastic and inhospitable Canadian....probably French Canadian too huh?

nogodsintheuniverse what the hell are you talking about?

Well you aren't being too hospitable to NOGODSINTHEUNIVERSE. More like hostile.

And noooo, I'm not a French-Canadian. My parents were born in former Yugoslavia. And I was born in Canada. (Besides, I was ONLY joking)

as was I, notice the little face bouncing and laughing...apparently you didnt get the joke. the punchline was stereotypes, get it?

how is asking nogodsintheuniverse what he is talking about being hostile??? I just dont understand his post at all, nothing more nothing less. I guess if he thought it was hostile towards him he would say so himself wouldnt he?