Are Contrails More Likely Formed In Less Humidity?

I know, the title doesn't make much sense. Logic would say the contrails are more easily formed in more humid conditions.

But NASA would have us believe otherwise.

Take a look at the Appleman Chart.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/43b239538b64.jpg[/atsimg]

If you notice the RH lines, is shows the less the RH (Relative Humidity) is, the greater the chances for a contrail. It, says in fact, that at 0% or less, there are always contrails.

Can some of the experts show how a contrail forms in 0% RH??

In 1953, a scientist named H. Appleman published a chart that can be used to determine when a jet airplane would or would not produce a contrail. For many years, the US Air Force Global Weather Center used a similar chart to make contrail forecasts.

asd-www.larc.nasa.gov...

Well I saw what was left of a contrail that was like fingers of a
hand or palm leaves in one of the coldest days, can't rember
too much if the weather changed, that drifted down from above
the day before and looked so close it was a fright.

I figure the cold kept the darn thing together except there was
this darn separation between the long puffs of white cloud.
What is a cloud doing almost at the tree tops.

Watch out for cold days ahead.


ED:
If contrails need water vapor then they need humidity.
Unless the gasses heat up the air extracting the water and icing it for
contrails.
On the high voltage craft forming contrail you have the same except
more exotic compounds should be formed in the mix.




[edit on 9/3/2009 by TeslaandLyne]

Thanks Tesla for your response.

The reason the pro contrail crowd hasn't chimed in is because they know the answer.

The length of time that a contrail lasts is directly proportional to the amount of humidity that is already in the atmosphere. A drier atmosphere leads to a more short-lived contrail, while an atmosphere that has more humidity will lead to longer-lived contrails. However, if the atmosphere is too dry, no contrails will form.

www.wrh.noaa.gov...

Now why is it, do you think, that the Appleman Chart (published by NASA) and used by the military for decades, would read exactly the opposite?

reply to post by Udontknowme


That sounds OK.
The frozen air and ice just made the cloud heaver and drifted down
and stayed together. Wow, so cold the Chem cloud visible at tree
top level.

In humid summer I see the haze of chemtrails, got to be cause there
is no polluting industry around to do it, right over two story buildings
that are the highest around.

Tree top Frozen Chem mix in winter and roof top haze in the suburbs
in the summer.

ED: Here is your answer:
1953, a scientist named H. Appleman

By the 50s the trail making of several air craft was a problem that
needed to be hidden.


[edit on 9/3/2009 by TeslaandLyne]

reply to post by TeslaandLyne


I don't know how people continue to believe the "junk science" the debunkers are producing.

We are being sprayed by nefarious government ops.

No. The chart does not say that. You have to plot a data point to use the graph. You have to consider the temperature. If a data point falls to the right of the appropriate relative humidity line contrails will not form. If it falls to the left of the Rh line, contrails will form.

Let's say the temperature at an altitude corresponding to 250hPa is -42º (the green point). The chart tells us that contrails will not form unless the humidity is almost 100%.

Now let's say the temperature is -50º (the red point). If the humidity is 30% or higher contrails may form.

If the temperature is -55º (purple). Contrails may form regardless of the humidity.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/89071fbe183c.png[/atsimg]

The chart tells us that if it is cold enough contrails can form in lower humidity. The warmer it becomes, the more humid the conditions have to be for contrails to form.

Try reading next time. It helps sometimes.

B. Using the graph: The two most important lines on the chart are the 0 percent relative humidity line and the 100 percent relative humidity line. If the atmosphere were colder than the temperature indicated by the 0% line, a contrail would form even if the relative humidity of the atmosphere were zero. By itself, the airplane will supply enough moisture to make the contrail, and no moisture is necessary from the atmosphere to form the cloud. According to the chart, contrails will always form when the temperature profile is to the left of the 0% line. If the atmosphere were warmer than the temperature indicated by the 100% line, a contrail could not form even if the relative humidity of the atmosphere were 100 percent.

asd-www.larc.nasa.gov...

reply to post by Phage


Why do you always have to be so nasty? I don't think you are as smart as you think you are.

a contrail would form even if the relative humidity of the atmosphere were zero
asd-www.larc.nasa.gov...

However, if the atmosphere is too dry, no contrails will form.
www.wrh.noaa.gov...

Which is it?. The scientists are contradicting themselves.

NOAA say one thing, NASA says another, and Phage gets caught in the
middle trying to have an answer for everything anti-chemtrail.

Go figure. Caught in another lie.



[edit on 3-9-2009 by Udontknowme]

Thanks for stuffing this guys turkey Phage.

People are not responding to this thread because you ignore common sense. Phage is one of the few people who can do it without calling people names. This is like your 5th thread on this topic were you get shutdown and then drive your own thread into the ground failing to respond to logic and reason.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Thanks for stuffing this guys turkey Phage.

People are not responding to this thread because you ignore common sense. Phage is one of the few people who can do it without calling people names. This is like your 5th thread on this topic were you get shutdown and then drive your own thread into the ground failing to respond to logic and reason.

Wow, even got the minion to respond. As usual, nothing useful to contribute, but rather attack the messenger. Gov. psy clops 101.

Originally posted by Udontknowme
reply to post by TeslaandLyne

 

I don't know how people continue to believe the "junk science" the debunkers are producing.

We are being sprayed by nefarious government ops.

Yes, well there are people that do not accept the existence of aircraft
that will do them harm.

But they do exist.
And the Ops are the top Ops.

reply to post by Udontknowme

The NOAA site is oversimplifying. If the atmosphere is too dry and it is not cold enough, contrails will not form.


[edit on 9/3/2009 by Phage]

Phage is completely right. There doesnt have to be any humidity for contrails to form, as long as the temperature is cold enough. Any water vapour coming from a contrail in such conditions is subject to immediate sublimation, meaning it changes from water vapour to ice, skipping the liquid phase.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Udontknowme

 

The NOAA site is oversimplifying. If the atmosphere is too dry and it is not cold enough, contrails will not form.


[edit on 9/3/2009 by Phage]

However, if the atmosphere is too dry, no contrails will form.

Your right, it's pretty simple, according to NOAA.

But you keep protecting the worst crime ever perpetuated on mankind.


[edit on 3-9-2009 by Udontknowme]

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Phage is completely right. There doesnt have to be any humidity for contrails to form, as long as the temperature is cold enough. Any water vapour coming from a contrail in such conditions is subject to immediate sublimation, meaning it changes from water vapour to ice, skipping the liquid phase.

You do realize the lack of logic in your statement, don't you.

You are implying that the greater the humidity, the less chance of a contrail forming, eventhough the chart says that 60% humidity is required for persistent contrails.

Originally posted by Udontknowme

You do realize the lack of logic in your statement, don't you.

You are implying that the greater the humidity, the less chance of a contrail forming, eventhough the chart says that 60% humidity is required for persistent contrails.

What???

I never said that....I said that if the temperature is low enough, then contrails will form, regardless of humidity. If humidity is high, then contrails will also form.

Stop trying to twist my words

If the engine is hot enough it might make trails in the rain but
the temperature will not make ice just some form of white cloud.

There might be other variables than pressure humidity and altitude
temperature.

There might be an engine that can make a trail in the driest of skies.

I think these unknowns are what need answers and will not be found
from the regular channels.

reply to post by Udontknowme

eventhough the chart says that 60% humidity is required for persistent contrails.

The chart does not say 60% humidity is required for persistent contrails. The red curve is a temperature curve (note the Legend: "Max. T for persistence", T means temperature, not humidity).

You're not reading again.

[edit on 9/3/2009 by Phage]

Originally posted by OzWeatherman

Originally posted by Udontknowme

You do realize the lack of logic in your statement, don't you.

You are implying that the greater the humidity, the less chance of a contrail forming, eventhough the chart says that 60% humidity is required for persistent contrails.

What???

I never said that....I said that if the temperature is low enough, then contrails will form, regardless of humidity. If humidity is high, then contrails will also form.

Stop trying to twist my words

Here, maybe we should review the chart a little closer.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/43b239538b64.jpg[/atsimg]

Chart says, to the right of the 100% RH line, NO CONTRAILS.

According to the chart, at [300 hPa], [-37 deg C (-34.6 F)], [100% RH], NO CONTRAIL

And guess what? According to NASA,

. If the atmosphere were warmer than the temperature indicated by the 100% line, a contrail could not form even if the relative humidity of the atmosphere were 100 percent. The combined moisture from the jet exhaust and the atmosphere will never be enough for the mixture to produce a cloud.
asd-www.larc.nasa.gov...

Even NASA says contrails forming into clouds is a myth.


[edit on 3-9-2009 by Udontknowme]

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Udontknowme

 

eventhough the chart says that 60% humidity is required for persistent contrails.

The chart does not say 60% humidity is required for persistent contrails. The red curve is a temperature curve (note the Legend: "Max. T for persistence", T means temperature, not humidity).

You're not reading again.

[edit on 9/3/2009 by Phage]

The red line, and 60% pratically run on top of one another. Especially at 250-350 hPa.

Originally posted by Udontknowme
Chart says, to the right of the 100% RH line, NO CONTRAILS.

According to the chart, at [300 hPa], [-37 deg C (-34.6 F)], [100% RH], NO CONTRAIL

And guess what? According to NASA,

Sigh

If the atmosphere were at 100% humidity, you wouldnt be able to see any contrails anyway....100% humidity = cloud

And, like they said, the temperature mus be below -37 degrees......are you actually reading what you are saying?