The words "liberal" and "conservative" have been distorted

Ahh but that was not a marxist comment...I said what good are property rights if the land is poisoned and cannot support life.

If you just take the first part of the sentence that mistake could be made in the whole context...no.

I also said the the needs and rights of the individual must by necessity segue with and give way to those of community.... AND vice a versa.

Again you leave out part of what I said.

[edit on 1-9-2009 by grover]

reply to post by grover


Ah...so you`re fine with property rights and also giving money to the rich.

I apologize for the misrepresentation.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Point of the whole matter is that I have not seen a single poster here who supported both the Bush Presidency and the Obama Presidency.

I supported Bush after 9/11. I argued with my family, and supported him in his reasons for going to war. I trusted him. I later found out I was wrong to do so. The same could happen with Obama. We shall see.

Excellent OP! S&F. I couldn't agree with you more!

reply to post by Skyfloating

I am fine with property rights but the rich should go out and earn their money just like everybody else and not be given any special due just because they are wealthy.

Taxing the poor and middle class and letting the wealthy slide tax wise gave rise to the French...Russian and Chinese revolutions.

That is a historical fact.

reply to post by grover


I was just kidding with the second part. I agree.

Just to add a little more:

I support a woman's right to choose and a citizen's right to keep and bear arms.
I support equal rights for ALL and I think illegal immigrants should be punished for breaking the law.
I believe in capitalism, but not unrestrained.
I am an environmentalist, but the government shouldn't tell me what to do on my property.
I support the concept of welfare, but I am fervently against the way it's been implemented.
I support a strong national defense, but am very opposed to using our military for overseas intervention where we don't belong.
I agree with Obama on some things and strongly disagree with him on others.

I think most people do have beliefs that straddle the left/right paradigm. And we should remember that in our discussions on ATS.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I supported Bush after 9/11. I argued with my family, and supported him in his reasons for going to war. I trusted him. I later found out I was wrong to do so. The same could happen with Obama. We shall see.

Thats good to hear. Its good to hear that some of the populace are still somewhat willing to trust.

reply to post by grover

Taxing the poor and middle class and letting the wealthy slide tax wise gave rise to the French...Russian and Chinese revolutions.

Okay, I'm really going to try to keep this on topic with this, but this quote from Grover is just too good to pass up.

So Grover, historical fact says letting the "wealthy slide" in taxes is what gave rise to those revolutions, well that is exactly what is happening now in this country.

People will spew their hatred at the "opposition" when the fact is people from all political spectrums are PO'd at the way the government is acting. Except the people on the pro-government side don't see anything wrong with what is going on because "their guy" is in office, when the fact is the only thing that has changed is the government is making deals with their special interest groups and not the other special interest groups, in short the rich are still getting richer.

I agree with the OP in the sense that the labels conservative and liberal are thrown around without very many people understanding what is going on. The truth of the matter is though is there are lots of people PO'd at the government for one of the exact reasons you stated "letting the wealthy slide".

That is what is going on in this country, but yet many many people are still politically brainwashed because they have applied a "false label" to themselves and because the label they have applied to them matches the one that is in presidency then everything he is doing is okay because he is working to the goals of the label that person claims to be.

Historical fact has proven that revolutions have started because of taxes. That is exactly what is going on in this country right now, so the question is are people going to look past the labels and see the way things really are?

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife

In each of the revolutions I cited the ruling elite paid no taxes at all or if they paid any at all it was a pittance compared to the tax burden laid on the middle classes and the peasants...

AND you are right...if we continue the tax policies of the movement conservatives that have taken over the GOP then the middle classes will bear the majority of the tax burden... and yet there will say that the amount the rich pay is greater and that is true except for one fact 38% (lets say) falls far heavier on the person who makes say $50,000a year than it does someone who makes $10 million a year.


OH Skyfloating...right after 9/11 I wrote a letter to the editor saying in essence that while I did not vote for Bush and disliked his politics and the policies that stemmed from them...to pray for him.

I also added that we must respond but for God's sake bang the war drums slowly.

Sadly they didn't.

I also supported his guest worker proposal.


[edit on 1-9-2009 by grover]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Reading your post I once again remember how different political issues are in America compared to Europe (been living in Europe since a decade). While I agree with everything you listed, many of the issues that are really hot-buttons, are non-issues over here. Guns for example...nobody ever talks about guns or the right to bear them over here. I find that interesting.

In any case, most "liberals" and "conservatives" one meets in real-life are entirely friendly people. Its only the internet that seems to bring out all this agressive paranoia toward "the other side"

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Guns for example...nobody ever talks about guns or the right to bear them over here. I find that interesting.

Are there laws about gun ownership? Do people own guns?

Very rarely do I come across someone who so strongly believes in the right to bear arms (a normally conservative position) and the right to choose (a normally liberal position).

Most of what I listed are two positions from the liberal and conservative mindsets. I most often get labeled as a liberal, and it's true, I lean liberal on many issues. But my conservative beliefs are just as strong.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Gun ownership is rare in Europe (exception: Switzerland). Neither is it something conservative parties fight for over here. Depending on country, gun ownership is more difficult. Licenses need to be acquired and several regulations are implemented.
So the issue does not arise in most European politics.

[edit on 1-9-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by grover
OH Skyfloating...right after 9/11 I wrote a letter to the editor saying in essence that while I did not vote for Bush and disliked his politics and the policies that stemmed from them...to pray for him.

All these friendly comments are very unexpected on ATS. I guess you guys have it in you afterall

reply to post by Skyfloating

Those who do nothing other but find fault with "the other side" are neither liberals nor conservatives but merely hate-mongers.

Hilarious...and you've been picked as a forum moderator?

This place is full of comedians...

reply to post by Skyfloating


i hated them both. i disagree with both. because bush and obama are one and the same.

the republican and democratic partys are horrible misrepresentations of the people, and i cant for the life of me see how people can agree with crazy right wingers, or with crazy democrats yelling about racism and domestic terrorists.

reply to post by Skyfloating


thank you much sky, i often notice the misuse myself. respect. deny ignorance

Originally posted by Gateway
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

Hilarious...and you've been picked as a forum moderator?

This place is full of comedians...

actually i was delighted to see that sky was chosen to be a mod. no need to hate. if ya dont like this place, just leave

Originally posted by Skyfloating


George Bush is 100% correct in identifying North Korea and Iran as troublemakers.

[edit on 31-8-2009 by Skyfloating]

That's false. Please don't make non-credible statements without evidence to back up what you're saying.

Iran is in no way a trouble making nation. Merely the victims of American terrorism.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Point of the whole matter is that I have not seen a single poster here who supported both the Bush Presidency and the Obama Presidency.

In my eyes thats very...telling of how brainwashed-into-division this nation is.

Yes but how many like my self disliked Obama, Clinton, Bush I & II ... As far as I am concerned there are only to real "parties," the elite overlords and us serfs. The extent to which the illusion is held by people that the US has two major political parties with different ideologies is a measure of how badly we have been brain washed by the mass media. I quit watching TV a long time go so I can see no difference between the actions of the two parties.

For example Clinton ratified the World Trade Agreement on Agriculture and instituted international HACCP food regulations. Under Bush and Obama the rest of the regulations will complete Kissinger's "Control the food control the people" by regulating independent food growing out of existence. Now a days no one would even consider a cottage industry of manufacturing and selling medicine the regulations make it completely impossible. Soon growing a veggie garden will be considered a totally illegal act too. Hilary Clinton is totally behind the bogus Food Safety bills and Hilary Clinton's Health Care plan is just as Pro-Corporation as Clinton's HACCP food safety regs and the "food Safety Bills" are. It is not Euro style healthcare it is guarranteed consumers of Health Insurance. If you do not buy health insurance you are fined or go to jail. see ATS

Until people are willing to look for the advantages for the corporations and/or bankers they will be continually be fooled by the bait and switch tactics in Congress. Sancho pointed out that his brother, who worked for the EPA, was instructed to leave the big guys like Exxon and Mobile alone and to go after the Mom & POP companies and put them out of business. HACCP food regs were enforced in the same manner until now we have ten Corporations who control over 80% of the food world wide.
Liberal Conservative, Democrat , Republican, Environmentalism, Global Warming are all bread and circuses to distract the serfs as our true Overlords rob us and our country into the poor house.