Independent Investigation Into Pentagon Attack Yields Alarming Information

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by jthomas

Originally posted by Jezus


Where are the wings?

What was the wreckage recovered from inside the Pentagon?

Not flight 77

Demonstrate it.

Not sure.

Why not?

Why are you sure at all?

You claim the wreckage is not from AA77. How do you know? Show me.

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by Lillydale

 

I am not fixated on the Pentagon nor did I ask specifically for Pentagon reinvestigation plans unless you think that is the best opportunity to show a conspiracy. All I asked for was opinions of those who want a reinvestigation. What each person thinks will show conspiracy in some aspect of 911. What evidence they would look at; physical, video, witnesses, paperwork, etc. How they would select the investigators to get an unbiased assay. How they would have the investigators report.
This is easy. It is an opinion survey that requires a little thought. It is non-confrontational.

What do you think?

Honestly? I think that I already answered your question. I have no idea why you feel it is confrontational to answer you honestly just because you dislike my answers. You asked, and I answered. Now you tell me that I should not be looking at the pentagon?

No. You want to know what would be valid questions -

Where are the passenger bodies?

Where are the pieces of flight 77?

Where are the wings?

Please make me keep asking until I ask questions you like.

You claim the wreckage is NOT from AA77. How do you know? Show us? Where are the statements of those who recovered the wreckage?

C'mon, man, put your money where your mouth is.

And, as I predicted above:

"Watch, I'll prove right now that you will refuse to refute the evidence: Tell us just what wreckage over 1,000 people saw, handled, removed, and sorted openly on the Pentagon lawn in the hours, days, and weeks after 9/11. What are those people's statements?"

www.abovetopsecret.com...

That was easy.

Originally posted by Lillydale

Where are the passenger bodies?

Where are the pieces of flight 77?

Where are the wings?

Please make me keep asking until I ask questions you like.

If you wonder why people are treat your questions so dismissively, it's because you apparenly have not looked at the vast amount of publicly available information answering these questions.

From memory,

Travelling at 460 mph into a reinforced steel and concrete structure, the front part of the plane virtually disintegrated inside the Pentagon walls. The back end thrust forward and wreckage, burned bodies strapped into seats, were part of the chaos. Firefighters, rescuers and medical personnel saw and dealt with this as fires were being put out.

Bodies went to various places, depending on whether they needed to be identified. Eventually they were returned to families for burial.

I don't recall reading where pieces of the wreckage ended up or how much was kept as evidence. I don't think there's any mystery. Disturbingly, police had to stop looters picking up pieces on the adjacent lawn.

The wings, much least solid than the fuselage, folded inward and were pushed in with the fuselage.

There are detailed description online. A summarized 9/11 timelinesequence events are on this site. Citation from sources, and crsoss referred. Url is too long so click on the topic in the list.

www.historycommons.org...

M


[edit on 10-9-2009 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by allclear
well if you want to think that a bunch of idiot muslim cavemen did all this damage to the USA, you can probably debate whether the sun will rise tomorrow, after it has already risen.

hahahha, nice way to get your opinion to be believed by others! Just use racism and anti-semetism!

its posts like this that ruin any chances of a real investigation into the matter.

reply to post by Lillydale


Lilly,
You missed the point when I asked you to complete the survey. I thought that you might have trouble because it does require a little original thought and knowledge of the issues. I would have helped with your reduced reading skills.
You may believe what you wish. You are unable to prove any of your theories as you have no evidence. What you have are demands. "Where are the passengers?" On 911, they were dying inside the Pentagon along with military and civilian employees. Many responders and rescue teams witnessed the carnage but didn't release the photos for ghouls and voyeurs to inspect. Flight 77 hit the Pentagon with people onboard. As much as you would like to revel in a huge conspiracy, there is none here. You'll just have to make it up as you go. Ask CIT for help on this, they have a lot of experience.

Two excellent write-ups on 9/11 published on 9/8, and 9/9, 2009:

As Gandhi once said ~ An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because very few choose to see or acknowledge it.

So let's set the record straight, Van Jones was not alone in his misgivings about the government's actions around the 9/11 attacks and most certainly it's response ~ as alluded to in the obviously deeply flawed 9/11 Commission report.

Here are 40 experts, including the Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Thomas H. Kean, Former Governor of New Jersey and Vice Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Lee Hamilton, Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, Homeland Security Advisory Council ~ sounding off in short quotes about their misgivings with the 9/11 commission and the far too many questions that are still UNANSWERED.

www.thepeoplesvoice.org...


And

In short, 9/11 represented the world’s largest crime scene of modern times, but was never treated as one. In fact, the crime scenes at Ground Zero, the Pentagon and a patch of woods in Pennsylvania were cordoned off and scrubbed clean before any forensic work could occur. The steel from the WTC towers was quickly hauled to Asia and melted down, while photographs show workers hauling away large crates from the Pentagon site, the contents of which were never revealed to the public.

www.russiatoday.com...

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by Lillydale

 

Lilly,
You missed the point when I asked you to complete the survey. I thought that you might have trouble because it does require a little original thought and knowledge of the issues. I would have helped with your reduced reading skills.
You may believe what you wish. You are unable to prove any of your theories as you have no evidence. What you have are demands. "Where are the passengers?" On 911, they were dying inside the Pentagon along with military and civilian employees. Many responders and rescue teams witnessed the carnage but didn't release the photos for ghouls and voyeurs to inspect.

Why do you people always resort to personal insults? Do you think that makes your point any more valid? They did so release photos. Have you not been following along? The photos were posted within the thread. You cannot tell me that they did not release the photos for ghouls to look at when they did release some photos, just not of passengers. Aside from that, there is no record of anyone finding passengers either. You are assuming or just making things up. Where are the first responders that saw passenger bodies?

Flight 77 hit the Pentagon with people onboard. As much as you would like to revel in a huge conspiracy, there is none here. You'll just have to make it up as you go. Ask CIT for help on this, they have a lot of experience.

So then why can't you tell us where the wings went?

Why can't you tell us why there were no passenger bodies instead of just lying and saying that there were?

Why can't you tell us why there is no actual evidence of flight 77 at the crash scene?

You say people have demands and yet you demand proof of a theory that has never been presented. Lilly and I have both said flat out that neither one of us is proposing anything at all. We each have questions that we would like answered? Why is it that you just want to shut up and trust the government? Do you think politicians are altruistic in nature? Stop dodging and insulting and try actually addressing some of this and I have a feeling you might finally get somewhere.

Or keep a closed mind. Believe everything your president tells you. Stick your head back in the sand. Just stop insulting people on your way down.

Originally posted by prizim

Originally posted by allclear
well if you want to think that a bunch of idiot muslim cavemen did all this damage to the USA, you can probably debate whether the sun will rise tomorrow, after it has already risen.

hahahha, nice way to get your opinion to be believed by others! Just use racism and anti-semetism!

its posts like this that ruin any chances of a real investigation into the matter.

Pay attention. This was already addressed once before. It is a reference to what our secretary of defense told us. He said a bunch of extremists hiding in caves did this. Allclear is just refering to what we were given as 'facts.'

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
We each have questions that we would like answered? Why is it that you just want to shut up and trust the government? Do you think politicians are altruistic in nature? Stop dodging and insulting and try actually addressing some of this and I have a feeling you might finally get somewhere.

Or keep a closed mind. Believe everything your president tells you. Stick your head back in the sand. Just stop insulting people on your way down.

If you were reading what has been posted, you'd see there have been attempts to answer your questions or point to sources that do. The ATS archives contain mant threads and thousands of posts covering your questions with photos and data provided.

The President of the US is an administrative official. Even if he wanted to, he cannot control information that comes out of an event witnessed by the public. Firemen, medical staff, police, reporters, general public volunteers, all witnessed the aftermath of the crash.
It is documented summarily in print and online. One can request further specifics from a number of sources. Despite self-serving attempts at obfuscation and creation of doubt, there is no question of what occurred that day in broad daylight in front of so many members of the general public.

Some trying to capitalize on the tragic event or push malign agendas have assembled certain information, testimony, and photographs to give the impression there is something secretive being hidden from the public.

But after 8 years nothing substantial has been presented that stands up to serious scrutiny.


Mike

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

So then why can't you tell us where the wings went?

Why can't you tell us why there were no passenger bodies instead of just lying and saying that there were?

Why can't you tell us why there is no actual evidence of flight 77 at the crash scene?

Why are you asking US?

You say people have demands and yet you demand proof of a theory that has never been presented. Lilly and I have both said flat out that neither one of us is proposing anything at all.

That is a classic tactic of all Denial Movements. The "just asking questions" canard to absolve yourselves of any responsibility. When will you learn that we see right through it?

We each have questions that we would like answered?

NO you don't, That is patently false. You refuse to listen to the answers and you refuse to do any research.

Why is it that you just want to shut up and trust the government?

Of course you have to resort to the classic strawman that all the evidence comes from the "government." That is your 9/11 Denial Movement's Achilles heel, the fatuous canard that is your house of cards.

You can't STAND the fact that what we know about 9/11 comes from hundreds of different, independent sources, only a part of which comes from the "government" and is not dependent on what the government says or does not say to establish the validity of the conclusions. It is that entire body evidence that you are completely incapable of refuting. And you go around whining like spoiled kids, "What evidence? What evidence? There is no evidence!

Stop dodging and insulting and try actually addressing some of this and I have a feeling you might finally get somewhere.

Explain to us succinctly why you find it necessary to insult US and the families of the victims of 9/11? I'd like to hear why insulting our intelligence with your already-debunked fatuous claims is indicative of RESPECT. I want to hear you explain why you DEMAND that WE do your homework for you.

Now, you want to ask your questions above again? Go ahead. But STOP refusing to go to the source for your answers if you are going to continue to DENY that AA77 hit the Pentagon. Or show us like every other 9/11 "Truther" that you will refuse to present the statements of the over 1,000 people who saw, handled, removed, and sorted the wreckage from inside the Pentagon openly on the Pentagon lawn in the hours, days, and weeks after 9/11. What did they handle?

Why do you 9/11 "Truthers" REFUSE to present us their statements?

Originally posted by jthomas
The claim that "photos don't resemble photos of other plane crashes..." is a meaningless strawman. There are many factors that determine what any one crash will end up looking like including the nature of the impact point (soil conditions, water, buildings, etc), speed, angle of attack, etc.

The fact that the crash site looks nothing like any other photos of plane crashes isn't evidence of a conspiracy but it is certainly not meaningless.

Coupled with the fact that their has been no video evidence provided makes it ridiculous to assume the "official story" is true.

Originally posted by jthomas
There is no "official story." There is only the evidence and you haven't refuted that evidence.

The evidence is contradictory to what is widely known as "the official story"

I have not refuted any evidence of this story because it simply does not exist.

no photos that look like a plane crash...
+
no videos of the plane or the plane crash...
+
contradicting eye witness reports...
=
The official story has no more evidence than other theories.

Originally posted by jthomas

Why are you asking US?

Because you insist that flight 77 crashed into the pentagon. You seem to believe that. You must have seen proof. Where is it?

That is a classic tactic of all Denial Movements. The "just asking questions" canard to absolve yourselves of any responsibility. When will you learn that we see right through it?

Do you get 50 cents every time you use the word "canard?" You are full of it and you know it. You claim flight 77 crashed there. You need to prove that happened.

NO you don't, That is patently false. You refuse to listen to the answers and you refuse to do any research.

What answers? When were there any answers? I have yet to see any answers. I see a lot of dodging but no answers.

Of course you have to resort to the classic strawman that all the evidence comes from the "government." That is your 9/11 Denial Movement's Achilles heel, the fatuous canard that is your house of cards.

Get over this tired old argument already. You refuse to tell me what you want to call the story about the hijackers. I asked you what you would prefer insted of official story and you never answered but we do all know the same story so there is one, isn't there? No one even said that all evidence comes from the government. Unfortunately for you, the president of the United States and the vice president and the secretary of defense were all over the news telling us this story. I heard it straight from their lips. They are government. If you want to blame ted koppel instead, go for it. It really matters not where the story comes from and you know that. You have no real argument so you cling to this lazy one over and over and over and over. It is tired and worn out. It looks rode hard and put away wet now. Stop. The point is the story and that is all. Wherever you want to say it came from, whatever you want to call it, it is the story you are telling. Flight 77 crashed into the pentagon, right? How do you know? Who told you?

You can't STAND the fact that what we know about 9/11 comes from hundreds of different, independent sources, only a part of which comes from the "government" and is not dependent on what the government says or does not say to establish the validity of the conclusions. It is that entire body evidence that you are completely incapable of refuting. And you go around whining like spoiled kids, "What evidence? What evidence? There is no evidence!

Yawn. Just produce the evidence then or shut up about it.

Explain to us succinctly why you find it necessary to insult US and the families of the victims of 9/11? I'd like to hear why insulting our intelligence with your already-debunked fatuous claims is indicative of RESPECT. I want to hear you explain why you DEMAND that WE do your homework for you.

Ummmm... huh? Wanting to know the truth about how and why they died is insulting to them? I am not demanding you do my homework. I have done it. I found no proof that flight 77 crashed into the pentagon. You say it did. Ok, show me your work then because mine says it did not.

Now, you want to ask your questions above again? Go ahead. But STOP refusing to go to the source for your answers if you are going to continue to DENY that AA77 hit the Pentagon. Or show us like every other 9/11 "Truther" that you will refuse to present the statements of the over 1,000 people who saw, handled, removed, and sorted the wreckage from inside the Pentagon openly on the Pentagon lawn in the hours, days, and weeks after 9/11. What did they handle?

This is easy. What wreckage did these people handle? What plane was it all from? Can you answer that?

Why do you 9/11 "Truthers" REFUSE to present us their statements?

The statements you already have and know? Who cares. I am more interested in solid facts. People can say anything

[edit on 10-9-2009 by K J Gunderson]

reply to post by jthomas


You go on and believe all the statements you want. I have done this homework and I already know the answer, let's see if you do.

What plane was the wreckage from that they handled?

Nice and simple. Just a question. Just answer it instead of deflecting and insulting.

reply to post by jthomas

What proof to you have that a plane hit the pentagon?

The same proof you do.

GOOD! You have just admitted there is no evidences thank you Jthomas for finally answering my question. That’s right I have the same PROOF as you have so why do you continue to support a lie?

We don’t want to hear you say Oh I told you all years ago!

Strawman. I never have. You need to refute the evidence that AA77 hit the Pentagon. You need to take responsibility for your OWN claims. You refuse.

Yes, you have, many times in other threads do you need me to go through all your posts and post where you have made these statements. Here I will now take responsibility on YOUR claim. I NEVER have made any claim to the fly over, however he is your answer


I don't need to prove it. It has been conclusively demonstrated from multiple lines of evidence, and thousands of people from those who “didn’t see the crash” who helped plant the bone yard airplane pieces on the pentagon lawn to those who worked at the Pentagon who lied through their teeth in the hours, days , and weeks after 9/11. The same planted evidence that is available to me is available to you. Yet you want to deny it all.

Sounds familiar?

I have done so for three years without refutation. Watch, I'll prove right now that you will refuse to refute the evidence: Tell us just what wreckage over 1,000 people saw, handled, removed, and sorted openly on the Pentagon lawn in the hours, days, and weeks after 9/11. What are those people's statements?

They lied, the FBI lied, and YOU lapped it up like a happy puppy.

Are you talking about the FBI with the black garbage bags that where seen planting the airplane bone yard Debris, is this the evidences that you are talking about?

Are you talking about the missing Boeing 757 titanium engine that just magically vanished?

Are you talking about no passenger seats found, no luggage found, no cockpit found, no serial numbers found, no black box serial numbers found, no airplane wings found, no passenger found, and most of all NO Boeing 757 found at the pentagon.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by impressme]

reply to post by mappam


I'm not sure if this has already been posted but this is a great article.
9/11 Questions
Top Officials Question the 9/11 Commission Report


[Alphabetized List \/]
Many respected senior members of the military, intelligence services, and government have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report. Some even allege government complicity in the terrible acts of 9/11. Below are the highly revealing public statements on this vital topic of over 50 prominent public servants with links for verification and further investigation.
The collective voices of these respected senior officials along with over 100 esteemed professors, over 200 pilots and aviation professionals, and hundreds of architects and engineers give credibility to the claim that the 9/11 Commission Report is tragically flawed. These dedicated individuals from across the political spectrum are not irresponsible believers in some 9/11 conspiracy theory. Their sincere concern, backed by decades of service to their country, demonstrate that criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report is not only reasonable and responsible, it is in fact a patriotic duty.

SENIOR GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS QUESTION 9/11

Senator Max Cleland Senator Max Cleland – Former member of the 9/11 Commission, resigned December 2003. U.S. Senator from Georgia 1996-2002. Currently serves on the board of directors of the Export-Import Bank of the United States. Administrator of U.S. Veterans Administration 1977-1981. Awarded Silver Star and Bronze Star for U.S. Army bravery in Viet Nam. Triple amputee from war injuries.
• Boston Globe Article 11/13/03: "If this decision stands [to limit 9/11 Commission access to White House documents], I, as a member of the commission, cannot look any American in the eye, especially family members of victims, and say the commission had full access. This investigation is now compromised."

www.boston.com... - Link to Boston Globe article

• Article 11/21/03: Regarding the 9/11 Commission: "It is a national scandal." dir.salon.com...

• Resigned from the 9/11 Commission, 12/03

• Transcript of audio interview 3/23/04: "One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9/11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up." www.democracynow.org...

• Bio: memory.loc.gov... - Library of Congress


Louis Freeh Louis Freeh – Director of FBI, 1993-2001. Former U.S. District Court Judge for Southern District of New York, appointed by President George H.W. Bush. Former Deputy United States Attorney in New York. Former FBI agent. Former officer in United States Army.
• Wall Street Journal 11/17/05: "Even the most junior investigator would immediately know that the name and photo ID of [lead 9/11 hijacker Mohammed] Atta in 2000 is precisely the kind of tactical intelligence the FBI has many times employed to prevent attacks and arrest terrorists. Yet the 9/11 Commission inexplicably concluded that it 'was not historically significant.' This astounding conclusion—in combination with the failure to investigate Able Danger and incorporate it into its findings—raises serious challenges to the commission's credibility and, if the facts prove out, might just render the commission historically insignificant itself. No wonder the 9/11 families were outraged by these revelations and called for a 'new' commission."

www.op...... - Link to Wall Street Journal article

• Bio: www.fbi.gov... - FBI Website

General Albert Stubblebine General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret) – Commanding General of Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM), 1981 - 1984. Also commanded U.S. Army’s Intelligence Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career. Inducted into the Military Intelligence Hall of Fame in 1990.
• Video: "One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of the Army’s Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold War. I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job. I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon. And I said, ‘The plane does not fit in that hole’. So what did hit the Pentagon? What hit it? Where is it? What's going on?" www.undersiegemovie.com...... . Another video of General Stubblebine's testimony is available here.

• Bio: www.canadiansub.com...


Col. Robert Bowman Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter. Air Force fighter pilot, over 100 combat missions. PhD in Aeronautics, Nuclear Engineering.
• Video: "A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story ... of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It’s impossible. … There’s a second group of facts having to do with the cover up. Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don’t want us to know what happened. Who gained from 9/11? Who covered up crucial information? And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first place? I think the case is pretty clear that it’s highly placed individuals in the administration with all roads passing through Dick Cheney. I think the very kindest thing that we can say about George W. Bush and all the people in the U.S. Government that have been involved in this massive cover-up ... is that they were aware of impending attacks and let them happen. However even that is high treason and conspiracy to commit murder." video.google.com...

• Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11. www.911truth.org...

• Bio: bowman2008.com...


Raymond L. McGovern Raymond L. McGovern – Former Chairman, National Intelligence Estimates, CIA. Responsible for President’s Daily Brief (PDB) for Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush. 27-year CIA veteran. Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer.
• Video: "I think at simplest terms, there’s a cover-up. The 9/11 report is a joke. The question is: What’s being covered up? Is it gross malfeasance, gross negligence? Now there are a whole bunch of unanswered questions. And the reason they’re unanswered is because this administration will not answer the questions. This is the bottom line for me; just as Hitler in 1933 cynically exploited the burning of the parliament building, the Reichstag, this is exactly what our President did in exploiting 9/11. The cynical way in which he played on our trauma, used it to justify attacking, making a war of aggression on a country that he knew had nothing to do with 9/11. That suffices for me. That’s certainly an impeachable offense." www.youtube.com...

• Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11. www.911truth.org...

• Bio: en.wikipedia.org...


Capt. Russ Wittenberg Capt. Russ Wittenberg, U.S. Air Force – Former Air Force fighter pilot, over 100 combat missions. Commercial pilot for Pan Am and United Airlines for 35 years. Had previously flown the actual two United airplanes that were hijacked on 9/11.
• Article: "'The government story they handed us about 9/11 is total B.S.' Wittenberg convincingly argued there was absolutely no possibility that Flight 77 could have 'descended 7,000 feet in two minutes, all the while performing a steep 270 degree banked turn before crashing into the Pentagon's first floor wall.'

'For a guy to just jump into the cockpit and fly like an ace is impossible,' said Wittenberg, recalling that when he made the jump from Boeing 727s to the highly sophisticated computerized characteristics of the 737s through 767s, it took him considerable time to feel comfortable flying." www.arcticbeacon.com.......

• Audio Interview 9/16/04: "[Flight 77] could not have flown at those speeds which they said it did without going into what they call a high speed stall. The airplane won’t go that fast if you start pulling those high G maneuvers at those bank angles. To expect this alleged airplane to run these maneuvers with a total amateur at the controls is simply ludicrous." 911underground.com...


Francesco Cossiga Francesco Cossiga – President of Italy, 1985-1992. Also served as Former Prime Minister, Undersecretary for Defense, and President of the Italian Senate.
• Article Corriere della Sera, 11/30/07: Mr. Cossiga commenting on a purported new video from Osama bin Laden: "The non-authenticity of the video is supported by the fact that Osama bin Laden in it 'confessed' that Al Qaeda was responsible for the 9/11 attack on the Twin Towers in New York. However, all of the democratic areas of America and of Europe, with the Italian center-left in the forefront, now know full well that the disastrous attack was planned and executed by the American CIA and Mossad ... to falsely incriminate Arabic countries and to persuade the Western Powers to intervene in Iraq and Afghanistan." Original article in Italian: www.corriere.it...
• Bio: de.camera.it...


Col. George Nelson Col. George Nelson, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority. 34-year Air Force career.
• Essay: "The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden.

With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged.

As painful and heartbreaking as was the loss of innocent lives and the lingering health problems of thousands more, a most troublesome and nightmarish probability remains that so many Americans appear to be involved in the most heinous conspiracy in our country's history." www.physics911.net...


Col. Ronald D. Ray Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret) – Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense during Reagan Administration. Highly decorated Vietnam veteran (two Silver Stars, a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart). Appointed by President George H.W. Bush to serve on American Battle Monuments Commission. From 1990 to 1994, served as Military Historian and Deputy Director of Field Operations for U.S. Marine Corps Historical Center, Washington, D.C.
• Article: "The former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense under the Reagan Administration and a highly decorated Vietnam veteran and Colonel has gone on the record to voice his doubts about the official story of 9/11 - calling it ‘the dog that doesn't hunt.' Ray questioned the feasibility of having a budget of half a trillion dollars a year, yet not even being able to defend the Pentagon. 'Half a trillion dollars a year and a bunch of guys over in a cave in Afghanistan were able to penetrate that half a trillion dollar network that's supposed to provide Americans with national security.'" www.prisonplanet.com...

• Bio: www.firstprinciplespress.org...


Rep. Curt Weldon Rep. Curt Weldon – Ten-term Republican Congressman from Pennsylvania. House Armed Services Committee Vice Chairman. Homeland Security Committee Vice Chairman.
• U.S. House of Representatives Speech 10/19/05:
"Intelligence officers ... identified [lead 9/11 hijacker] Mohammed Atta and three terrorists a year before 9/11, tried to transfer that information to the FBI, were denied, and the FBI Director has now said ... the FBI could have used it to perhaps prevent the hijackings. The 9/11 Commission totally ignored this entire story.

I am a strong supporter of our military. I am a strong supporter of President Bush. I say all of that, Mr. Speaker, because ... there is something desperately wrong here. I have met with at least 10 people who fully corroborate what [intelligence officer] Tony Shaffer says. This is not [about] Republicans or Democrats. It is about what is fundamental to this country."

curtweld...... - Link to speech on Weldon's website

• Fox News 8/28/05: "'There's something very sinister going on here that really troubles me,' Weldon told Fox News on Thursday, blasting the 9/11 commission for not taking the claims more seriously. He said some panel members were trying to smear Shaffer and Able Danger. 'What's the 9/11 commission got to hide?'"

www.foxnews....... - Fox News webpage with quote

• Bio: curtweldon.house.gov...


Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, U.S. Army (ret) – Former Military Intelligence Officer, Defense Intelligence Agency. Member of Able Danger effort to target Al Qaeda’s global structure. Former Chief of the Army’s HUMINT [Human Intelligence] program. Awarded the Bronze Star for bravery for the first of his two combat tours to Afghanistan. 23-year military intelligence career.
• Testimony before the House Armed Services Committee 2/15/06 (page 18) - “After contact by two separate members of the Able Danger team … the 9/11 [Commission] staff refused to perform any in-depth review of investigation of the issues that were identified to them. … It was their job to do a thorough investigation of these claims – to not simply dismiss them based on what many now believe was a “preconceived” conclusion to the 9/11 story they wished to tell. … I consider this a failure of the 9/11 staff ... as is evidenced by their recent, groundless conclusion that Able Danger’s findings were “urban legend.” www.abledan......

• Bio: www.c4ads.org...


Paul Craig Roberts Paul Craig Roberts, PhD – Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Treasury under Ronald Reagan. "Father of Reaganomics." Former Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal. Currently Chairman of the Institute for Political Economy and Research Fellow at the Independent Institute.
• Essay: "We know that it is strictly impossible for any building, much less steel columned buildings, to 'pancake' at free fall speed. Therefore, it is a non-controversial fact that the official explanation of the collapse of the WTC buildings is false." www.informationclearinghouse.info...

• Essay: "There are not many editors eager for writers to explore the glaring defects of the 9/11 Commission Report. One would think that if the report could stand analysis, there would not be a taboo against calling attention to the inadequacy of its explanations." www.counterpunch.org...

• Bio: en.wikipedia.org...


In order not to make this message too long, we have included only 12 of the over 50 government and military witnesses questioning the 9/11 official story. To access the full list, visit the link below:
www.WantToKnow.info/officialsquestion911commissionreport

Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by jthomas
The claim that "photos don't resemble photos of other plane crashes..." is a meaningless strawman. There are many factors that determine what any one crash will end up looking like including the nature of the impact point (soil conditions, water, buildings, etc), speed, angle of attack, etc.

The fact that the crash site looks nothing like any other photos of plane crashes isn't evidence of a conspiracy but it is certainly not meaningless.

It's irrelevant to the fact that all of the evidence conclusively demonstrates AA77 hit the Pentagon.

Coupled with the fact that their has been no video evidence provided makes it ridiculous to assume the "official story" is true.

You're just descending into woo. NO videos are required any more than they were needed to know that the Titanic sank. You're just making silly statements and spinning around in circles.

Originally posted by jthomas
There is no "official story." There is only the evidence and you haven't refuted that evidence.

The evidence is contradictory to what is widely known as "the official story"

How is the evidence contradictory to the evidence?

I have not refuted any evidence of this story because it simply does not exist.

Of course it exists. But you are forced to deny its existence or even go to those who can show you. If you were to admit it exists, you'd have to refute it. You know you can't refute it.

no photos that look like a plane crash...
+
no videos of the plane or the plane crash...
+
contradicting eye witness reports...
=
The official story has no more evidence than other theories.

You're just repeating the same nonsense and refusing to go to the sources of the evidence. I have explained it clearly above. Now you are showing us why so-called 9/11 "Truth" is actually what it has been known along as: 9/11 Denial.

Why do you INSIST on being a 9/11 Denier?

reply to post by jthomas



img132.imageshack.us...

The federally registered aircraft reportedly used during the 9/11 attacks:

- American Airlines flight 11 (N334AA), United Airlines flight 175 (N612UA), American Airlines flight 77 (N644AA) and United Airlines flight 93 (N591UA).

That debris is not from flight 77, how did it get on the pentagon lawn?

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by jthomas

Why are you asking US?

Because you insist that flight 77 crashed into the pentagon. You seem to believe that. You must have seen proof. Where is it?

You insist it didn't crash into the Pentagon. You claim there is no evidence.

That is a classic tactic of all Denial Movements. The "just asking questions" canard to absolve yourselves of any responsibility. When will you learn that we see right through it?

Do you get 50 cents every time you use the word "canard?"

No, I only use it when warranted.

You are full of it and you know it. You claim flight 77 crashed there. You need to prove that happened.

I don't need to prove anything. You need to refute the evidence that it hit the Pentagon. You are playing the game of Creationists who insist the evolution is false and that there is no evidence for it. Guess who has the burden of proof. Evolutionary biologists or Creationists?

Of course you have to resort to the classic strawman that all the evidence comes from the "government." That is your 9/11 Denial Movement's Achilles heel, the fatuous canard that is your house of cards.

Get over this tired old argument already. You refuse to tell me what you want to call the story about the hijackers. I asked you what you would prefer insted of official story and you never answered but we do all know the same story so there is one, isn't there?

No one even said that all evidence comes from the government. Unfortunately for you, the president of the United States and the vice president and the secretary of defense were all over the news telling us this story. I heard it straight from their lips. They are government. If you want to blame ted koppel instead, go for it. It really matters not where the story comes from and you know that. You have no real argument so you cling to this lazy one over and over and over and over. It is tired and worn out. It looks rode hard and put away wet now. Stop. The point is the story and that is all. Wherever you want to say it came from, whatever you want to call it, it is the story you are telling.

Nice of you to stick your foot into your mouth for us. You know full well that 9/11 "Truthers" use it to cover whatever evidence you don't want to discuss, as you are doing now. In this case you made it obvious by changing the term from covering the physical and eyewitness evidence of AA77 hitting the Pentagon to a "story" about the hijackers.

Forget it, buddy, it doesn't work.

Flight 77 crashed into the pentagon, right? How do you know? Who told you?

WHO told you that it didn't? Why do you REFUSE to go the sources? Why do you INSIST on pretending NO evidence exists and rejecting all of the evidence that AA77 hit the Pentagon that you find inconvenient?

Now, you want to ask your questions above again? Go ahead. But STOP refusing to go to the source for your answers if you are going to continue to DENY that AA77 hit the Pentagon. Or show us like every other 9/11 "Truther" that you will refuse to present the statements of the over 1,000 people who saw, handled, removed, and sorted the wreckage from inside the Pentagon openly on the Pentagon lawn in the hours, days, and weeks after 9/11. What did they handle?

This is easy. What wreckage did these people handle? What plane was it all from? Can you answer that?

Sure. It came from AA77 that crashed into the Pentagon. No one has demonstrated otherwise. But you don't believe me and YOU are the one making the claim that there is no evidence that it hit the Pentagon.

So, guess what? Your evasion failed - again You are still forced to do your own homework.

Why do you 9/11 "Truthers" REFUSE to present us their statements?

The statements you already have and know?

How do you know I have them?

Who cares. I am more interested in solid facts.

If that were true, you would be searching for facts. But like Craig Ranke, you avoid facts like the plague. (Hint: the facts refute your claims so you HAVE to pretend they don't exist.)

People can say anything

Which is exactly what you are doing - making any claim you want. But to hell with 8,000 people who were at the Pentagon and have never contested the evidence that AA77 hit the Pentagon.

You want some help taking your feet out of your mouth? It's always interesting to watch how you 9/11 Deniers paint yourselves into a corner and show you don't know what you are talking about.

We knew that 8 years ago.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
reply to post by jthomas

 

You go on and believe all the statements you want. I have done this homework and I already know the answer, let's see if you do.

What plane was the wreckage from that they handled?

AA77, a Boeing 757.

Nice and simple. Just a question. Just answer it instead of deflecting and insulting.

That was easy.

Now admit you don't know that my answer is correct. You haven't done your homework, after all, and you believe what you were told by other 9/11 "Truthers."

Originally posted by impressme
reply to post by jthomas

 

What proof to you have that a plane hit the pentagon?

The same proof you do.

GOOD! You have just admitted there is no evidences thank you Jthomas for finally answering my question. That’s right I have the same PROOF as you have so why do you continue to support a lie?

I don't support ANY lies. AA 77 hit the Pentagon. Why do you insist on lying about that fact?