Creationists, what is your case for proving creationism?

So far, all I see from creationists/ID'rs is religious mumbojumbo. Dang! I really thought this time I would see a REAL hypothesis on creation/ID. Maybe no one involved with this movement is smart enough to come up with a testable hypothesis . . . yes, it must be testable to be included in the scientific realm.

Well . . . if they can't come up with a testable hypothesis and, therefore, any observable evidence . . . Maybe, one of the brilliant creationists could posit a nice linear equation to show us how this methodology works? (This would be your evidence . .. ) You know, like how evolutionary biology can predict and observe mutation rates or population density of certain traits.

So you super-smart creationists . . . show me some numbers!

Originally posted by Mike_A
reply to post by ChemBreather

 

Why not ?

That’s the point. Why not? Or rather why?

If you can’t articulate why using evidence then it’s not scientific.

By the way, I know the answer to that question. That wasn’t the point.


@ Everyone

I repeat for those that still don’t seem to understand what this thread is about; this thread is for those creationists that claim creationism is scientifically valid to prove this claim by providing a scientific argument.

It is NOT for those who believe faith is good enough and it is NOT for those who don’t believe in science.

Well, let me explain to you what my thoughts are on ID, it is alien beings created what is here on earth.
Most people look at God as some one devine on the spritual level.
I look at this person as an Alien being, ok,making Earth as they see fitt, as they needed it to be..I also look at the Bible and quran as History of alien presence among us, and Not an tale from the story books.
I think what is written in those books are true stories from before our time, and that we do not understand their capabilities...
(Ohh, sorry for my english... )

Originally posted by solomons path
So far, all I see from creationists/ID'rs is religious mumbojumbo. Dang! I really thought this time I would see a REAL hypothesis on creation/ID. Maybe no one involved with this movement is smart enough to come up with a testable hypothesis . . . yes, it must be testable to be included in the scientific realm.

Well . . . if they can't come up with a testable hypothesis and, therefore, any observable evidence . . . Maybe, one of the brilliant creationists could posit a nice linear equation to show us how this methodology works? (This would be your evidence . .. ) You know, like how evolutionary biology can predict and observe mutation rates or population density of certain traits.

So you super-smart creationists . . . show me some numbers!

ok, take the chromosome 2, it is been hijacked by the nwo-scientists as 'evolution' step , which is wrong, it proves gene splitting and splicing which can not accure in nature, but Evo has taken it and with their Endless amount of resources as the PTB needs this truth Coverd UP, gets exactly what they need to coverup,descredit and ruin evidence that shows any thing else than Evolution... So , the reason there is no real solid evidence is just that, it is destroyd, lied about and twisted into form in the Evo theory, which is still a Theory !

reply to post by solomons path


Woah. I never said I was anything near smart.

Sheesh. How come we can't have a discussion without some form of name-calling? I was just starting to enjoy this thread.

make.changes. I think I starred all your responses. They're great. But, as the OP stated, not what he's looking for.

You can't have this discussion without religious texts or scientific theories. It's impossible.

To the OP: I'm hoping you watched the videos here on ATS about Creationism. There's a ton of them that have good ideas about the proof you are looking for. Search. I'm sure you'll find them.

reply to post by make.changes

the bible holds all of the answers there is no need for science seeming how the bible has all of the answers, which science is trying to discover for themselves because they dont believe god theyy somehow want to figure out the knowledge that has already been given to them by god.

Gotcha.

Well, I'll be the first one to admit the possibility of I.D.

However, this god you speak of is a false god, if there are even any "god". That is for another topic.

reply to post by Darthorious

Creationism is associated with the supernatural and/or god like being. However that is precieve'd by a human belief system.

Yeah, the problem here is there are millions of gods and goddesses. How would we really know? Like I said, science is the art of observation in nature. If we don't see it, then how do we know it exists?

reply to post by make.changes

there is a difference between science and math. i trust math math is symbols such as three dots or ...

Do you trust your computer? The internet? ATS servers?

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
Yeah, the problem here is there are millions of gods and goddesses. How would we really know? Like I said, science is the art of observation in nature. If we don't see it, then how do we know it exists?

You can't see gravity. Just the effects of a force we called "gravity".
We could of called it "the force".

Thats just it. Faith. You have faith that when you see something drop, its because of gravity. Not because of anything else. Why? Because some guy named Newton said so.

So how do you know gravity exists? Because we said so.

check sacred geometry not the little posters. but its what brings shape to this world demension and reality think everything as a mathmatic formula god created all of this without science but math if you want a mathmatical formula its sacred only god knows it for its one of the secrets of life, its life thats the mathmatical formula. you will never be able to see the basic what life is made up of because once you do you will be enlightened because everything was made up of nothing it takes faith to become enlightened, you may be awakened but you are not enlightened. if you were enlightened you wouldnt use science you would use faith

Originally posted by ChemBreather

Originally posted by solomons path
So far, all I see from creationists/ID'rs is religious mumbojumbo. Dang! I really thought this time I would see a REAL hypothesis on creation/ID. Maybe no one involved with this movement is smart enough to come up with a testable hypothesis . . . yes, it must be testable to be included in the scientific realm.

Well . . . if they can't come up with a testable hypothesis and, therefore, any observable evidence . . . Maybe, one of the brilliant creationists could posit a nice linear equation to show us how this methodology works? (This would be your evidence . .. ) You know, like how evolutionary biology can predict and observe mutation rates or population density of certain traits.

So you super-smart creationists . . . show me some numbers!

ok, take the chromosome 2, it is been hijacked by the nwo-scientists as 'evolution' step , which is wrong, it proves gene splitting and splicing which can not accure in nature, but Evo has taken it and with their Endless amount of resources as the PTB needs this truth Coverd UP, gets exactly what they need to coverup,descredit and ruin evidence that shows any thing else than Evolution... So , the reason there is no real solid evidence is just that, it is destroyd, lied about and twisted into form in the Evo theory, which is still a Theory !

Hijacked? Unfortunately fused chromosomes have been observed in quite a few other species, so apparently it can happen in nature . . . Our fused chromosome is the only thing (genetically) seperating us from chimpanzes. If this has happened nowhere else in nature (plant or animal) then you can make the claim that it is somehow evidence of aliens or supernatural forces . . . unfortunately, the universe (nature) has shown your arguement to be a "wild" guess at best and definitely ignorant of current reasearch.

And if you don't know (or fail to accept) what it is required to constitute a actual "theory" in science (mountains of evidence in varied fields that all lead to the same conclussion, peer review, and prediction/observation) . . . can't you just label everything a theory and never really know anything? That's right . . . it's how it's supposed to be . . . us humans are too dumb figure out the "known" laws of the universe. Only imaginary figures and mythological "sky beings" are smart enough to figure these things out.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
reply to post by make.changes

 

the bible holds all of the answers there is no need for science seeming how the bible has all of the answers, which science is trying to discover for themselves because they dont believe god theyy somehow want to figure out the knowledge that has already been given to them by god.

Gotcha.

Well, I'll be the first one to admit the possibility of I.D.

However, this god you speak of is a false god, if there are even any "god". That is for another topic.

nope i speak of ultimate god not a false god god could be tangible if he chose to let himself be tangible. why would you think that i believe in a false god when you believe in millions of them the millions are all heathens there is only one ultimate god and i know him through the scriptures

reply to post by solomons path


Exactly!

reply to post by make.changes


You totally miss the point of that equation example. My point in posting that is to show why “any answer” is not better than no answer at all.

reply to post by ChemBreather


But still, this is just your own personal opinion. You may think that but what is the evidence that shows that it is true? That is what I am asking for.

ok, take the chromosome 2, it is been hijacked by the nwo-scientists as 'evolution' step , which is wrong, it proves gene splitting and splicing which can not accure in nature

THIS is what I’m asking for! Star that post!

I still disagree though lol but at least you attempt to provide a falsifiable hypothesis.

In this case the problem is twofold. Firstly chromosomal fusing or splitting isn’t the same as genes splitting or fusing. Secondly chromosomes often do split, fuse and move around in nature, look up Robertsonian Translocation for example.

As far as I'm concerned - - everything is Energy - nothing really exists but Energy. All is an illusion of energy thought creation.

The original "Creator" of this universe is Energy evolved consciousness/intelligence. Which began with the Event (big bang).

As I see it we are a very complex video game created by thought (a matrix). Evolving "stackable" thought. Meaning you have an idea and then you build on it. Consider how we have progressed from Pong.

I don't believe in god - other then an over seer of this planet. God would be a title - such as President. There are probably multiple gods overseeing different scenarios/planets - etc.

Of course all individual entities are only thought creations of the ONE - the original Energy consciousness.

-----------------------------------------------------

How do you prove Creationism? For me it is simply to look at our own advancement from Pong to the complex XBOX games we have today.

Where do we go from here?

Will we be able to play games & create computer worlds using only our minds?

Will we be able to allow our own thought creations to have their own thought creations as they develop a "world".



[edit on 29-8-2009 by Annee]

Originally posted by havok
reply to post by solomons path

 

Woah. I never said I was anything near smart.

Sheesh. How come we can't have a discussion without some form of name-calling? I was just starting to enjoy this thread.

make.changes. I think I starred all your responses. They're great. But, as the OP stated, not what he's looking for.

You can't have this discussion without religious texts or scientific theories. It's impossible.

To the OP: I'm hoping you watched the videos here on ATS about Creationism. There's a ton of them that have good ideas about the proof you are looking for. Search. I'm sure you'll find them.

I didn't address you specifically, so I don't know why you're getting defensive. I said I was waiting for those brilliant creationist to actually form a REAL hypothesis on creationism/ID . . . one that can be tested.

If you want to walk in the realm of science, you can't make up your own rules. If you don't want to show evidence it's superstitous mumbojumbo. I don't care what people believe, personally. But it's extremely dishonest to fight for legitmacy in the field of science and then say you can't provide direct proof . . . or worse your only proof is by "trying" (although never accomplishing) to discredit a totally seperate theory (the scientific one, not your opinion/guessing).

reply to post by havok

You can't see gravity. Just the effects of a force we called "gravity". We could of called it "the force". Thats just it. Faith. You have faith that when you see something drop, its because of gravity. Not because of anything else. Why? Because some guy named Newton said so. So how do you know gravity exists? Because we said so.

Huh? You are describing science. We see the effects of gravity. We measure it. Science is in the process of understanding the force of gravity. How is that faith?

Yes, the funny thing is that you are describing exactly what science is.

If you are talking about the "ultimate force" or some unknown entity, then I am afraid that is out of realm of science right now.

We could all be in the matrix right now. If that is so, you could be speaking some truth. How do we really know anything?

But for now, we have observed the effects of gravity and the laws we have devised has held for a long time. It's good for now.

reply to post by solomons path


Nah, this is what I am talking about, what other species has geneticly cut/splaiced genes and 223 unknows genes ??

And as I told you, main stream science is corrupt, you cant go to Science Daily and believe all you read there, dont you pay attention ??

And, we are nothing like any scimpansee, we are similare on the gene level, and that is because the MS science works out from the genes 'closest' to chimp when they make the gene-tree and say : Hey , look , we are like chimps...

When ID comes into play , they/God or whom ever you believe, took the thing closest too the original 'blueprint' and made alterations....

Creation , it does say so in the Books also, In their image, after their likings.. Did all this just start by an crazy accident ? was the bible, the maya calendar etc. just created by some wild atoms ?? Think not !

Originally posted by Mike_A
reply to post by solomons path

 

Exactly!

reply to post by make.changes

 

You totally miss the point of that equation example. My point in posting that is to show why “any answer” is not better than no answer at all.

reply to post by ChemBreather

 

But still, this is just your own personal opinion. You may think that but what is the evidence that shows that it is true? That is what I am asking for.

ok, take the chromosome 2, it is been hijacked by the nwo-scientists as 'evolution' step , which is wrong, it proves gene splitting and splicing which can not accure in nature

THIS is what I’m asking for! Star that post!

I still disagree though lol

but at least you attempt to provide a falsifiable hypothesis.

In this case the problem is twofold. Firstly chromosomal fusing or splitting isn’t the same as genes splitting or fusing. Secondly chromosomes often do split, fuse and move around in nature, look up Robertsonian Translocation for example.

Well, to merge two chromosomes, you need chemical scissors and glue so to speak, who can do that ?

God can do that, cause he had a Laboratory !!!
And, merging Chrms like that by accident in nature, come on, how many 'lucky shots' do mother Nature get ? that alone is a miracle !

reply to post by ChemBreather


Sorry but did you look up Robertsonian Translocation? It does happen in nature, quite a bit. What you are saying just isn't true.

life thats the formula. with out trees you couldnt exist without gas but the trees needed gases to make the oxygen but for the trees you need land and the land needed nutrients and the nutrients needed water. so first you need the land as it states in the bible, then you need water"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light" then he made light the sun which science says is made up of gas so that means there was gas to make light. i would say its just light after all all the details would have been unknown by moses afterall it was only a vision. so you have land then you have water and gas and light after, that the trees could grow making oxygen for you to live, but before you first came the animals and bugs so you would have something to eat besides trees something more filling more filling besides trees .bugs for the smaller animals and plants for the smaller animals and larger animals could eat the smaller animals and the plants so we could eat the larger animals. it was created thats the formula whats the formula with the missing piece

Originally posted by breakingdradles

Originally posted by kingoftheworld
I think that our biggest evidence is "where did it all start"?

I dont mean earth or even life on earth, i'm talking about the whole universe. Something had to have brought the universe into exsistence and it was not evolution.

What was before god?

This argument doesn't work as no one knows what was before the big bang just as no one knows where god came from and what was before he was.

Lets continue.

Well, ofcourse if your going to have a simple perception of God, than yes, your not going to really see the "evidence" of creation.

What needs to happen, is a revision of the term God and what it actually means.

I see God as the macro consciousness of life, we souls are only individual aspects of that larger consciousness experiencing itself in this reality.

We also need to enter in the concept of eternity, the statement that God always was, is, and will be.

You cannot create something from nothing, evolution just does not pop up out of nowhere to propagate an entire Universe most likely teeming with life.

If you really think about life, does it makes sense to even be alive? If there is no source or Creator, than what is the point to life? Why isn't there no life instead of all life? Why is there even a Universe, if that is the case?

Logically, if there is nothing in existence, then don't you think things would remain the same? But no, something happened, something instigated or inspired an evolution, a growth - but where did that spark come from? Where did the energy of that spark come from, where did that IDEA come from?

There must be some form of originator and instigator as I like to call it, there must have been some kind of force - a higher intelligence, that was able to set things in motion.

An intelligence may only create that which is less than his intellectual capability. Now look throughout the Universe, observe the intelligence in even the most mundane things, such as the growth of a flower or the cycles of earth. Now apply that to the Universe, does it not seem that nature itself is imbedded with some kind of intelligence and pattern?

Now, there must have been some greater intelligence that we most likely label God, that imbedded our existence/reality with the intelligence needed to support life and evolution.

If your going to come at me with scientific arguments, just tell me this - how does something come from nothing? Does it really sound logical and rational that we exist because of some freak accident that we don't even fully understand? We can't even see past that point in existence, and we assume that it was an accident, a combustion of random materials that spread outwards to create the Universe we see.

I believe that the physical reality that we experience, this physical Universe, is just a product of consciousness, and not the other way around. Does it make more sense for the Universe to stem from consciousness, or for consciousness to stem from the Universe?

If consciousness did stem from the Universe, it certainly could not have been by random/chance happening. If it indeed is the product of the Universe, than that would suggest that the Universe itself is intelligent as something non-intelligent cannot create intelligence.

Do you understand my logic here? It is all very simple, science and religion tend to overcomplicate things or oversimplify truths.

And then the theory that we and everything in creation, are one. If we are one, a unified consciousness experiencing itself individually throughout creation, than that would suggest true death does not exist as any true death would result in that "one" being reduced to less than what it was.

This just doesn't happen. We know energy cannot be created nor destroyed, yet science cops out and tells us that the energy is just absorbed into the ground around us... YEAH I BUY THAT ONE