Are extraterrestrials real? As real as the nose on your face. [UPDATE]

I see both sides of the argument and I agree with certain points being made by each. On the one hand, most of this stuff has to be speculated about because there is no evidence that some of this stuff exists. On the other, I have no doubt that some of this stuff probably does exist, even without concrete proof. Even the US military admits they are 20 years ahead of the civilian world. that could be disinformation, but personally I feel they are only scratching the surface.

Good thread OP.

It perplexes me to realize that the more knowledge we gather makes us realize how little we actually know.

Everybody has an opinion concerning the mysteries of our existence and of all the universe.

We humans are a show me type of beings. Prove it or I can't believe it.

Show me proof or shut your mouth. That's human nature.

All of our actual facts were once theories until proven to be what we call real or true.

What we know about all of creation would not even fill the eye of a needle.

Unfortunately many of us believe we have all the answers but that is not a truth or is it? No one knows. There is no proof or is there?

How can we ever state that something is not true if we haven't found the truth yet?

So many questions so little time.

edit to make question plural.



[edit on 28-8-2009 by dizziedame]

reply to post by ziggyproductions05


This is NOT what I am saying.....By ALL means discuss what you have seen and share it with all. All I am saying is please do not come out with some widespread statement and then claim and challenge the government on something in which you can offer no evidence in favor of your argument. It really makes ufology as a whole look like a bunch of nut-jobs IMHO.

There is a difference b/w discussing something and trying spread the information and PROCLAIMING SOMETHING is the absolute truth and challenging a major power. I mean think about how it looks to everyone not so caught up in ufology for a moment:


Some guy is claiming that the US government has had for many decades alien technology, a millenia or more advanced from our TOP technology now, and are intentionally withholding this technology so major oil and energy companies can make money and themselves stay in power, all the while secretly communicating with alien races.

Now while to many of us that research this field (including myself ) this makes sense and is believable. BUT WE ARE NOT TRYING TO CONVINCE OURSELVES, we are trying to gain support among non-UFO enthusiast. Now does anyone really think that proclaiming the aforementioned statement as fact to the general public without one shread of evidence to back it up is going to actually help make ufology seem more legit? If anyone says yes then I feel sorry for you, because obviously in the mainstream world a statement such as that would be and IS laughed at by most---And guess what, this statement is taken as a part of ufology so in the end we ALL get messed up by such a profound but hollow statement. So any hope of gaining support and legitimacy in ufology is being shot out the window because seriously......Who in the hell would believe the aformentioned statement without absolute proof? Of course a small fraction of the population would if they have researched UFOs and aliens at all, but guess what? We are not trying to convince OURSELVES, we are trying to convince EVERYONE ELSE!




[edit on 8/28/2009 by jkrog08]

reply to post by jkrog08

ok i see what you're saying now. gotcha. maybe we will hear more about this in the rest of the interview? I do think that it is true though, just a hunch. I mean, it makes sense. The government would lose sooooooo much money if there was this type of energy available. even if the govt came out with some kind of priced feul - or some tax - there would be people who could get around it. Maybe i'll just switch to a natural engine and get around on french fry greese...

reply to post by ziggyproductions05


I personally believe the government has 'ultra black' ET based technology, however I can not PROVE it so I am not making al kinds of websites and going to conventions, making videos, asking for money, calling congressmen, etc....

I just think some people have their order of priorities skewed. Firstly I think it is important to prove UFOs are piloted by aliens, THEN we must prove that the US government has had knowledge and been hiding it since at least Roswell. THEN...........We can maybe get into suppressed technologies, assuming we can PROVE the other two postulates first.

Of course I would LOVE if someone would come with some type of alien engines or something to CNN tomorrow and force the US government to disclose (although the damn crooks prolly' still wouldn't

) everything, but without something like that happening (lol, a MIRACLE) I see no other choice than to systematically go over the evidence from every case and maybe build a case and following, which may in turn lead to some interesting events.

reply to post by jkrog08


ok agreed, but what i've been pondering lately is what would be definate proof? If you're a die hard debunker, you can really debunk anything. If Obama came out and said there are aliens and they are the cause of some UFO's, some people still wouldnt believe. If we released a video message from them, some people still wouldnt believe. I mean, we have video out now that has been thoroughly studied and shown not to be fake, with the Turkey UFO/Alien video. That seems pretty legit. We may've also already seen an alien on video with that Alien Interview released a few years back. I just honestly dont know what it would take for every person to say "they're real" - Maybe mass contact to EVERY person? i dont know...

[edit on 28-8-2009 by ziggyproductions05]

The interviewer thought really hard about inviting Lou Baldin, since many would criticize him for doing so, as Lou does not fit the traditional UFOlogist mold.

Therefore, that leaves us with two possibilities:

1. Dismiss/discount everything Lou Baldin and other non-traditional guests may have to say and do not interview.
2. Take a chance, interview and listen to what Lou or others have to say.

It is our duty to discern. If everything boils down to SHOW ME PROOF, and what I'm about to say should not be construed as an attack on religion, but if proof is necessary, PLEASE SHOW ME PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS.

Billions of people follow hundreds of religions because faith is sufficient for them. Interviewing people like Lou Baldin and others is done to find pieces of the puzzle. Some pieces may not fit, but that is part of the truth-seeking process.

Cheers,

Exo

reply to post by ziggyproductions05


If Obama or any other world leader made a full disclosure about ETs then only idiots would not believe it. I mean at that point only the lunatic pseudoskeptic idiots would still try and debunk the stuff with "Project Blue Beam"(the pseudoskeptics GODSEND lunatic theory IMO) or something, lol...

The Turkey video is FAR FROM PROOF. I think it is very possibly a hoax, as do MANY others. Even if were real, it is not enough I am sorry to say. It, like other major UFO incidents (Roswell, Kecksburg, Mantell, New Zealand, JAL, Lakenheath, Belgium, etc, etc ,etc) can and will always be debated because in such incidents there is almost no way to prove or disprove. So yea, we must rely on an official disclosure, mass landing, or some type of MAJOR ufological piece of evidence (like a physical piece of evidence from a UFO or something).

In my humble opinion 'disclosure' has been planned for MANY DECADES and is already happening in small steps. However UNTIL AND IF THAT TIME COMES we ALL need to maintain the most professional, unbiased, and legitimate/ science based approach we can to ufology.

reply to post by Exopolitico

If everything boils down to SHOW ME PROOF, and what I'm about to say should not be construed as an attack on religion, but if proof is necessary, PLEASE SHOW ME PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS.

I really do not think you understand how a correct scientific inquiry such as ufology should exist my friend.

Your statement I quoted is a PRIME example of what is wrong in ufology today. Please do not take this as a personal attack, it is not. It is just me pointing out a major fallacy in viewpoint on approach to ufology.


You are now using several logical fallacies to defend your predetermined belief. That is not necessary and actually makes hurts ufology as well. And yes everything DOES boil down to PROOF, I do not see how God and religion has to do with ANYTHING here, and as I already said you are using a logical fallacy in your approach, this is also not needed. PLEASE DO NOT LET YOUR PASSION overwhelm your LOGIC my friend.



In summation of what you implied in that statement:

"If you say the my theory needs proof than show me proof of God! If you can't than that means my theory is as true as yours!"


I really do not think I need to further explain how illogical that is. That is the stuff that happens when we let our strong PASSION (as you obviously have) overwhelm our LOGIC. This CAN NOT HAPPEN, but it is easy to, especially for someone such as yourself who seems to really have desire to expose the truth to all. I am glad you have such passion, but always remember you are much more of an asset to ufology if you use LOGIC, rather than EMOTIONS.


[edit on 8/28/2009 by jkrog08]

reply to post by jkrog08


Yeah thats the same route I was thinking any sceptics would take, it would be hard to deny from someone of that calibur. I really hope that day comes soon. I think differently of that Turkey vid - If thats fake they went into a great, great amount of detail, time and effort, which is possible, but It is possible its a genuine craft and occupants. a lot of things still need to be looked at, true. There are a few screen shots that are particularly interesting of the craft lit up for only one frame I believe. I'll try to find them, ive only seen them on a newspaper from Turkey from a friend.

reply to post by jkrog08


Hi again Jkrog08,

Appreciate you taking the time to really lay out how you feel and what you mean in greater details.

For me personally I see this as black and white.

All I am saying is that before claiming things as factual one MUST be able to PROVE IT.

If someone claims something as factual and cannot prove it then you simply do not believe them because how can it be factual if they did not prove it?

I haven’t seen that yet in this particular interview, I haven’t yet heard someone claim that everything being said is a fact unless I missed something? Nevertheless if that claim was made then whoever is making that claim without actually proving it is only disproving and debunking their own story/statements. So if they claim it as factual and can’t prove it then the more you probably shouldn’t believe them because they are losing credibility in their own statement by making such claims without backing it up.

I know exactly what you mean and feel your frustration on the subject because what I do not believe in is extrapolating materialistic things/money from sincere truth seekers over invented sci-fi stories claiming them to be real for one’s financial gain. But when someone claims like you said something to be a fact and they cannot prove it then they are in fact proving their own statement false and you should probably be even more skeptical about what they have to say from that point. I’m sure having to many of those type of people around hurts any field out there especially ufology.

I have to admit, I listened to most of the interview and found it quite different then expected yet unique in a certain way. This person says many things that I personally am sure of but then again that part is only for me so call it opinion and then other things that I think he truly believes are real yet I can say he is still behind another curtain of the illusion in those presumptions. Contact for him has allowed him to remain on a certain level perhaps for his own individual reason/purpose of being there. I won’t claim to be right either as I’m sure I’m living part of that illusion as well, we all are on different levels as everyone sees the world differently in their own unique way that creates their own reality so we all have different perceptions/angles at viewing the world. (We call that personality with an ego-)

Well back on topic!
Appreciate the discussion,
ET_MAN

Originally posted by jkrog08
All I am saying is that before claiming things as factual one MUST be able to PROVE IT.

I can literally feel the frustration in your posts as you try to make your point clear

Of course your point is a very valid one. However, you have to understand it from both sides. If sleeper is 'the real deal', has seen all this stuff with his own eyes, and knows it to be fact - it's then very hard not to present it as fact.

On the subject of sleeper - I have to admit I don't know if he's telling the truth because I didn't read/listen to most of what he said. I started reading his thread not long after it began, and at a certain point I had to stop. Not because I didn't believe him - but because something he said scared me. It shouldn't have affected me, but it did. It resonated with me for some reason I don't understand - and quite frankly I don't want to know.

I know that sounds odd.

jk,

Do you have proof that the Turkey video is a fake? Where is it? Just because there is no proof that life doesn't exist outside our planet doesn't mean life doesn't exist elsewhere. The same principle applies here.

Unless we have tangible proof or an experiment conducted in a controlled environment, then everything we can investigate is futile. Is that what you mean?

Everyone who has witnessed a UFO or the hundreds who have been abducted usually don't have sufficient proof of their experiences. Do we dismiss all of them too?

Some skeptics have their minds so closed, that no matter how much irrefutable evidence you present will never be enough. What I'm trying to tell you is: DO YOU DISMISS OR DO YOU LISTEN TO WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY AND THEN DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSION?

I'm not waiting for Obama to Disclose either.

Exo

[edit on 29-8-2009 by Exopolitico]

reply to post by jkrog08


Hello Jkrog08,

Let me tell you something about Ufology my friend.....

Ufology is nothing more than a bunch of people who have nothing better to do but turn the UFO phenomena into another dogmatic scientific study.

A true Ufologist would ridicule one thousand farmers for talking about their abduction experience simple because they are missing a few teeth and nevry truly evaluate the fact that there are one thousand people saying the same Double-damned thing, that ET is real!

Just like you are trying to do now with Sleeper. You think that evidence is everything, you think you call the shots on who is legit and who is not simply because you are one of the many, many people who have never had any type of ET experience.

If you had any recollection or if you ever understood your own life experience with ET you would not be demanding evidence. You would not need it because you would all ready have it.

So you along with any other proof demander out there are just a bunch of people who feel left out and demanding proof when some one else talks about their experiences is the only thing that makes you feel better.

Ufology is nothing more than a help group comprised of the ET experience impaired.

TA!!

IZARITH.

Originally posted by jkrog08
reply to post by Exopolitico

 

If everything boils down to SHOW ME PROOF, and what I'm about to say should not be construed as an attack on religion, but if proof is necessary, PLEASE SHOW ME PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS.

I really do not think you understand how a correct scientific inquiry such as ufology should exist my friend.

Your statement I quoted is a PRIME example of what is wrong in ufology today. Please do not take this as a personal attack, it is not. It is just me pointing out a major fallacy in viewpoint on approach to ufology.

You are now using several logical fallacies to defend your predetermined belief. That is not necessary and actually makes hurts ufology as well. And yes everything DOES boil down to PROOF, I do not see how God and religion has to do with ANYTHING here, and as I already said you are using a logical fallacy in your approach, this is also not needed.

PLEASE DO NOT LET YOUR PASSION overwhelm your LOGIC my friend.

It's funny but the same could be said about your very same post. Pleas...Let me explain.

First of you keep in mind that you are accusing the person you were replying to or using SEVERAL logical fallacies to defend his predetermined belief. I want you to keep this in mind while I point out that you are only using ONE logical fallacies to defend YOUR predetermined belief.

The fallacy is that you are implying that there is no proof when a person gives no proof to YOU when they speak of their ET or UFO experience. This is not true if the person did in fact experience the ET, abduction or UFO.

What you and your ideological fantasy of what "Ufology" should be do to people who can not, for any number of reasons, prove to YOU and any other person who thinks they have been left out of the fun does to the person who claims to have experienced, is no different than to demand proof from a crying woman who says she was raped one night many years ago by a man who drugged her beyond comprehension of what was happening to her.

What about the proof to the guy having the experience? How would you like to get taken out of your bed one night, wake up on some ship, have crazy inhuman things done to you only to have some Ufologist say "Pleas go away and don't bother to talk if you don't have any proof"?

I can understand not believing, but to imply that people who claim to have first hand, up front experience with UFOs and ET's have no right to to talk about what they say they have experienced with out proof and that some how it degrades an idiotic mad up field of so called expertise like Ufology is absolutely backward.....

TA!!

Izarith.

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
Oh wow, how embarrassing for many of us. This type of ignorant tripe put out there by the vocal majority that has been representing this subject to the public has damaged any ability to ever know the truth.

And yet these fools continue with their baseless "stories" knowing full well that there is "a fool born every minute" to swallow the crap they are shoveling.

I don't what embarrasses me more, the fact that there are people out there still engaging in personal, childish fantasies like this or the fact that there are so many eager to sit in the pews and yell shout hallelujah.

And I suppose you think that the wold would be a better and more knowledgeable place if slanderous easily embarrassed people like you were at the helm of the truth ship?

There is a fool born every minute this will never change. I'm astounded that such a wise man like you would even Bat an eye at this simple and well known fact. Wait until you realise just how many of these fools actually think they are any different and feel the need to call their fellow fools a fool.

Your not looking for any converts are you?

See because the only reason I can think of for a man like yourself, one that is so intelligent and incapable of falling for such childish fantasies to even bother commenting on such trivial obvious lunacy would be to save the few willing to listen to the lies.

You know that most like me are beyond salvation but I bet your stooping to such a low level for the few who still have a small chance of seeing the light. Your light.

And seance we are on a childishly fanciful thread perhaps you think that the old elementary school trick of name calling would work the best to steer just enough your way.

Very well though out Mosses, You fooled me.

Izarith.

great...lou baldwin...just another guy that says things without any proof...if what he says is true, there should be plenty of evidence, just through the sheer volumne of happenings...maybe he can come up with a clip of fuzzy dots in the night sky. different guy, same crap.

Lou Baldin is no more than a failed wannabe writer with a passion to be "known".

No one.....utterly no one would touch his attempt at writing a "screenplay".

The entirety of his work is horribly written tripe. Lou Baldin couldn't write himself out of a wet paper bag. If Lou Baldin wrote a "who dunnit?".....he wouldn't know who did it at the end of the book.

reply to post by jimmyx


reply to post by cranberrydork


Aww, don't tell me I struck a cord with a few Ufologists.

I see we are getting the second hand ATS account trolls now. And they have resorted to old school, over rated, not even laughed at any more slanderous jokes.

I don't blame you guys. I mean if I felt the psychopathic need to discredit a guy, I sure as hell would not want to do it on my actual ATS account, I'd jump on a troll to.

But for future reference could you guys at least try some new jokes please. At least until that compelling voice in your head goes away and you start living your own lives.

reply to post by Exopolitico


Was the guy that was getting interviewed "sleeper"? You know the iconic individual from the famous thread: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Because he sounded like it as far as what he was saying.