Has MUFON Investigators switched to the Debunker List?

Hi All,

Since the announcement of Bigelow Millions being injected into MUFON for intensified field investigations of reported, pictured and video'd UFO reports, I'm finding MUFON investigators -- investigating techniques and results to be slanted toward the debunking of incidents. Are you?

MUFON Investigations (strange outcomes):
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Mexico Cases (1/5) 2009:
www.disclose.tv...
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Twin Lakes Aug-2009 MUFON Report:
www.ufocasebook.com...

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Texas I-20 Original UFO Cell Shot report:
I-20 Cell Phone Image
www.realufos.net...

MUFON I-20 Investigates and report:
www.ufocasebook.com...
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Sure there are hoards of hoaxed reports and sure there are some possibly hoaxed reports uncovered by the new MUFON field investigative team.

But what I'm finding alarming since the injection of millions to MUFON to investigate reports is, that there appears to be an intentional effort to debunk and set-up hoaxes to downplay UFO reality as a whole.

Credits: to UFO Casebook, Disclose TV, UFO Chronicles and YouTube.

Decoy

I doubt the fact that because they are using reason, logic and common sense that they are now "debunkers". Blind faith has been damaging to this subject for far too many years, making it near impossible to take this seriously.

Think about it this way, they have been in the game for a long time. Results have been next to nothing and they are no longer the dough-eyed believers they used to be. Kinda like if your young and not a liberal you don't have a heart, but if your old and not a conservative you don't have a brain.

And if your insinuating that some secret government organization paid them off with money to say and/or do certain things that dismiss UFO's just stop and think about that for a moment and you will see why that is simply absurd.

reply to post by Decoy


You are right Decoy but the actual responsible of this unfortunated situation is no other
than the infamous James Carrion who is conducting MUFON to a dark age. Now Carrion
continues to turn himself and MUFON against certain websites who are questioning his
methods based in those reasons you correctly wrote in this thread, this is a fact.

And what better proof of this MUFON's decadence than the recent MUFON 40th
Anniversay fiasco that took place in Denver. Just check this report from an actual
withness who described accurately the actual deficient status in the organization.

I do not think they are now 'debunkers', I do agree with IgnoreTheFacts that the previous liberal take on UFO research has done nothing but harm ufology for the most part. It is beyond time for ufology to unify under a much more strict scientific approach. Only then will the already slim chance of exposing any kind of truth have a chance, and only then will ufology be taken seriously possibly.

On a further note I find the article free_spirit linked disturbing because I think it is evidence that the total lack of any solid evidence over the years of ufology and MUFON seem to be taking its toll in the area of new support. It seems that people, while many believe in ETs, just do not feel it worth while chasing a 'ghost', which is exactly what it seems we all are chasing at the moment--regardless if ETs are real and visting the Earth modern ufology has thus far failed to produce any significant evidence. However I think that another factor to the lack of people and presentation of this years MUFON convention is also due to the bad economy. Either way in my opinion ufology needs something major to pop up soon, or it too may go the way of other 'fringe sciences'.

[edit on 8/28/2009 by jkrog08]

I wouldn't necessarily say that they are now promenading as born again debunkers per se, but maybe they are instead taking more of a traditional hard line view ala Richard Hall which was indicative of the inherently conservative way of looking at things back in the proported UFO heyday. Perhaps the information that was gleened evidentially with that format of research and study yielded a "cleaner" and more quantifiable body of evidence in those times i.e., harkening back to the '60's and '70's with the likes of Hynek, Hall and the questionably fringy but always good for educated speculative info, Vallee.

One could perhaps see that a lot of the supposed evidence being bandied about today is arguably fringe and cult oriented which when muddied into the little good evidence that actually exists, makes it rather difficult to discern between good physical science with it's obvious ailing empiricism, and speculative religious/cultural subjective garbage. This is not to say that the belief mechanism inherent in the Human Psyche is not a valid criteria by which to look at things, but it is much more critical to have the objectively tangible evidence virtually devoid of the speculative rhetoric that has so badly muddied the current UFO Research of our day.

Just my two cents,

Erik

i recently lost all faith in Mufon because of this case about a cone shaped ufo that was seen in California

www.abovetopsecret.com...

the witness drew a picture of the object and Mufon did not include it with the report that was listed on the site.

i sent 2 email requests for an explanation and a request for the illustration to be posted or sent to me and i never heard anything from them.

that was the final straw for me.

Mufon sucks imo

I think it's important for some groups to differentiate, and take a more scientific approach. For a long time Ufology has been seen as a joke by people outside it, and by science. By taking a harder line, hopefully they can encourage some more mainstream people and maybe even scientists to get involved. I think that can only be a benefit to Ufology overall.

I read a MUFON report a while ago, I forget what event it was for, but it was very well written, had very few speculations, and had some experts analyze some of the radar data. It really impressed me, it was almost as good as you'd expect from 'big science', and it made me think at the time, that this would be the kind of thing I would show people who think it's all just a joke.

There will always be other groups, and places for getting raw data out, anecdotal evidence and so on. I don't think it's a problem if some people are a little tougher in their approach.

I'm not connected with MUFON in any way, so I should qualify my statements here thus, I don't have any direct knowledge on their operations protocols...

However, I'd like to suggest an alternate theory as to the apparent shift (from the reader's perspective) in MUFON's depth of investigation.

At the outset, MUFON really just collected data, and assembled it. From the perspective of a researcher, this makes a lot of sense. When I first came to ATS, my first thread here attempted to collect and assemble all of the available data out there about Aliens and UFOs, specifically the data and analysis available here at ATS. I sought to organize the data by classification (Evidence of EBEs, Evidence of Alien Technology, Evidence of Alien Craft, etc...).

I found that a lot of what I ended up organizing were hoaxes. Much of the data out there was fraudulent, and ATS had threads fully debunking most of the cases, using science, math, and rational analysis to do so.

However, there were some gems in there, and those gems were absolutely worth investigating in more depth. And once I learned many of the 'tricks of the trade' used by hoaxers, the fraudulent data revealed itself for what it was, and the gems were easier to find.

It seems likely to me, from my own experiences investigating, that the current MUFON shift to in depth research is a natural part of their developing process of investigatory research.

At first, they collected data, with loose analysis, in order to establish an online searchable data set containing reports, photos, and any evidence reported in a case. For a researcher this is an invaluable tool.

As I recall, the funding given to MUFON came as a result of the significant amount of reports they were receiving, for which they did not have the manpower to catalouge, let alone investigate.

With funding, it should not be surprising to find MUFON shifting to more in depth research and investigation. I certainly would in there position, and even without funding have found it more effective in my own private investigations.

That's one of the reasons I focus on researching the BOLA case, because there is real evidence there (amidst thousands of cases where such strong evidence does not exist in the public record).

When I filed my own report (when I first moved to Los Angeles) with MUFON, I was disappointed to find that there was never any follow-up done. Regardless of the findings made by MUFON researchers, I find it agreeable that in depth investigations and analysis are finally being done there.

As researchers, we can certainly disagree with a particular conclusion, if we find evidence supporting our conjectures. However I feel that there is real value in research, regardless of it's findings. Scientific Analysis establishes further data, and that can only lead toward a clearer understanding of the case in question, regardless of your personal theory on the case.

I hope that helps. Thoughts?

-WFA

I think any time you seriously look at a UFO case, you should try to come up with the best "natural" explanation for it. Now I don't mean waving the hand and a dismissive "Oh that's just a (fill in the blank)" like we get from too many arrogant debunkers.

While there are certainly cases where credible researchers believe that alien visitation is the best explanation, every UFO case that doesn't involve alien visitation, and that is the overwhelming majority, does have a natural explanation.

I don't know James Carrion personally, but from what I know of him he does strike me as a cautious and methodical researcher who is interested in getting to the truth.

I know in his investigation of the "Great Lakes Dive Company" hoax from 2006, he tried to investigate all the claims and found that there seemed to be not a shred of real evidence that the company had ever existed. To this day none of the discovery claims (missing F89 from Kinross AFB and metallic disk found on bottom of Lake Superior using sidescan sonar) have been verified.

So from my perspective as a researcher who has focussed my efforts on the Kinross case, I was very gratified that Carrion invested the time to see if there was any truth to the claims - especially when many researchers promoted the discovery as authentic without going to any effort to check the background of the claimants.

I don't think it is a bad thing to see a larger degree of scepticsm amongst some researchers if it helps to whittle out more of the background noise from the "signal".

SOme very interesting thoughts mentioned above. After posting this thread another MUFON enriched "STAR Team" investigation documentary aired on Discovery Civilization channel.

I thought, OK their going to dive into two more cases (PA), and make a liar of me here. But that's not what happened. The local Mufon investigators did the initial research (Pictures and high Geiger readings) and they called in the "MUFON STAR Team" and of course who took the investigation by the reins once on location?, James Carrion.

In my opinion he worked the two cases to the point of "Inconclusive" this time. Reason case 1: Lack of Witnesses. Case 2: Conflicting scientific analysis and picture showed image different than the Woman described.

Most of us who have been fortunate to take video or pictures at night know the image on video and Digital Camera looks completely different than whats described through ray-vac vision.

Personally, I chalked this MUFON episode to their or at least the shot-caller -- Carrion, to finding anything even the unreasonable to conclude the investigations in a Skeptical manner.

Certainly a lot of bunk reports have been thrown out there to muddy the waters of truth, possibly in some cases deliberately, aka disinformation campaigning. But I feel MUFON's "STAR Team" go well beyond looking for facts in the cases I mention thus far. The STAR Team seem to be looking for anything to discredit the witness and report.

Wondering what Bigelow's up to re terms for financing MUFON and the STAR Team?

Decoy

reply to post by Decoy

Certainly a lot of bunk reports have been thrown out there to muddy the waters of truth, possibly in some cases deliberately, aka disinformation campaigning.

I don't think that is the case, or can possibly meet you halfway here and say I don't think that is the case any longer. Maybe way back when some secret government organization pushed some false, laughable data out there, but lets face it, it grew legs of its own and now there are thousands of people that do that for free, no government involvement necessary.

And for every person, investigator or group that pushes the more "out there" conclusions and/or evidences there are dozens of dough-eyed believers that swallow it hook, line and sinker. And yes, there are plenty of skeptics that may appear hard headed and ready to dismiss anything, but that is far from the case.

If this subject is to move forward in a positive manner that might support an honest conclusion, first the community needs to rid itself of those that ignore reason, logic and common sense in order to jump to the least possible conclusion. Years ago I would have said that we need to educate those that jump too quick at things, but in my old age and wisdom we just need to rid ourselves of them. For every one of them that "sees the light" they are instantly replaced by a dozen or more others, some newcomers, some (unfortunately) old timers like myself. Just remember, it wasn't skeptics that gave this subject the giggle factor, and its not skeptics who are perpetuating the stereotype the believer crowd has saddled us with.

I don't remember where I read it/heard it but it was an interview with someone from Bigelow talking about them being involved with some "fringe" investigation groups. Something about the odd chance that someone might stumble onto something that would revolutionize the world, or at least the private space business sector (lol). Darn, where did I hear that? I will try to go search it out if I can.

Originally posted by fls13
I think any time you seriously look at a UFO case, you should try to come up with the best "natural" explanation for it. Now I don't mean waving the hand and a dismissive "Oh that's just a (fill in the blank)" like we get from too many arrogant debunkers.

While there are certainly cases where credible researchers believe that alien visitation is the best explanation, every UFO case that doesn't involve alien visitation, and that is the overwhelming majority, does have a natural explanation.

Sorry but rubbish. There should be no thought about using the "best natural explanation" for anything. All investigations should be done with an open mind and no prejudice.... and anything should be seen as a possibility. As soon as you start slanting towards the "common sense" reasons for something occuring thats when you start becoming a debunker and using get out of jail free cards like "Occams Razor" which the scienticists love being able to use when scientific proof isn't available.

I found this comment interesting too. Found it on the web at the following site:
Cabinet of Wonders at: www.wunderkabinett.co.uk.../archives/1721-Robert-Bigelow-MUFON-gigolo.html

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Excerpt:

"... Bigelow has close ties to military intelligence and has direct control over the hard science end of this new deal, if something explosive is discovered (especially if it has military or technological impact) will we ever hear about it? So I have my fingers crossed that this could be a real breakthrough but I will also be keeping half an eye on this in case something shady is going on."
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I suppose one might ask, what reason would Bigelow have to give a mound of money away to Investigate Reports of UFOs by a secondary party -- MUFON? He's a businessman, meaning Bigelow has a business interest.

Assuming people who are responding have either seen or have taken the time to check the MUFON documentary reports I included.
As it seems to me, Photos, Videos and Eyewitness accounts one with physical evidence (Female in PA) was in my opinion shot-down by the Carrion group. Why? Cause she didn't have her glasses on when taking a picture of (SIP: "Moon").

Decoy

Originally posted by Total Package
Sorry but rubbish. There should be no thought about using the "best natural explanation" for anything. All investigations should be done with an open mind and no prejudice.... and anything should be seen as a possibility. As soon as you start slanting towards the "common sense" reasons for something occuring thats when you start becoming a debunker and using get out of jail free cards like "Occams Razor" which the scienticists love being able to use when scientific proof isn't available.

You're contradicting yourself. You can't be open minded and not consider natural explanations in regards to UFO sightings at the same time. That's a trap many ufologists have fallen into, a UFO must be alien visitation. Then you become a debunker of natural explanations, exactly what you are criticizing.

It goes without saying that any conclusions should be drawn only after the facts are in, but I'll say it anyway. Any conclusions should be drawn only after the facts are in.

Hi all, great posts. Here is what I'd term the goods on MUFON's Carrion. From his own lips comes the reasons for his lack-luster belief system in reported UFO cases which I have seen out of the STAR Team.

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Follow The Magic Thread
The personal blog of James Carrion, MUFON International Director

Carrion (excerpt):
"...So here the disinformer adopted the standard disinformation formula of righteous indignation, followed by calling into question my motives and credibility as well as those of MUFON, to keep the focus off the fact that GLDC was not showing up in public records. These were tactics of intimidation to get me to stand down on my investigation..."

LINK: followthemagicthread.blogspot.com...
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I'm beginning to see the picture now.

Decoy

I would like to start by introducing myself.

My name is Mark Easter and I am the International Director of Public Relations for The Mutual UFO Network. (MUFON)

I have been asked to participate in this discussion so the public viewing this thread would know the REAL STORY about MUFON instead of being lead astray and confused by detractors who hide behind screen names like "Decoy" and make statements that are absolutely false and misleading.

Here's the skinny.

"Decoy" keeps misleading you everytime he writes "Bigelow's Millions" in his rants. BAASS is a benefactor to MUFON, yes that is true.

"Millions?"

Regretfully "Decoy" is painting a false picture here so don't follow his deception.

The truth is, the funding from BAASS alone is far short of the false statement of "Millions" and can only be described as moderate or marginal. That is why MUFON is fortunate to have many benefactors of which the BAASS organization is only part of an entire group of thoughtful individuals and organizations who donate to MUFON.

Our ever growing group of donating benefactors come from all walks of life. MUFON is greatfull to ALL of our benefactors who appreciate an organization like MUFON that truly is dedicated to boots on the ground investigating using scientific protocol.

Don't be distracted by untruth. Our Investigative Team follows a strict code of ethics. MUFON does not speak for the evidence. We let the evidence gathered through thorough investigations speak for itself.

MUFON is not a "DeBunking" organization as "Decoy" falsely states. I agree that everyone has the right to their own opinion, and surely "Decoy" has the right to his own opinion. That does not mean "Decoys" opinions are the truth about what MUFON is about.

UFOs bring out the good, the bad, and the ugly in all of us. There is a clear and straight path to the truth about UFOs and the technologies that are associated with them. MUFON will continue to navigate the straight path and do so through scientific investigation and research of UFOs for the benefit of humanity.

"Decoy" included.

Again, my name is Mark Easter and I am the Director of P.R. for MUFON.

"Decoy".... what is your name?

Having first hand and personal knowledge of the MUFON/BAASS arrangement and having spent time with one of the BAASS Directors (actually the brilliant fellow who is in charge of the MUFON piece of BAASS) in Las Vegas, only a couple weeks ago, I will agree with everything Mr. Easter just wrote.

It's curious to me why anyone would characterize a genuine attempt at applying REAL FORENSIC SCIENCE to this "field" as "debunking" and only "debunking"?

If a case has merit, it will stand on its own. If a case can pass muster with trained investigators it might actually get "the light of day" shed on it in a huge way.

REAL investigation by trained professionals is what Ufology needs more of IMHO.

Making rash assumptions and spewing false claims arrived at by those assumptions is NOT what Ufology needs ANY more of, again, in my humble opinion...

Springer...

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
I doubt the fact that because they are using reason, logic and common sense that they are now "debunkers".

Do you think the USAF were 'using reason, logic and common sense' in their explanations for these incidents?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I do not think they are on a mission to debunk i believe they do the same thing I do. Make every attempt to
1. Identify object
2. Find signs of manipulation
3. Preserve data obtained in 1 and 2
If one and two can't be done you got a UFO. The fact that they are willing to go investigate shows that they are not writting everything off as swamp gas and weather baloons. If you just want every single light in the sky called an alien UFO go post it on the lightworkers forum or send the video to jamie maussan.
UFOlogy needs people that can debunk better than the skeptics, that way we have a leg to stand on when the data is presented to the public.