Depression is an Evolution not a Malfunction

I just wanted to add, that if you have ever studied ecology, or evolution. You will know the saying "survival of the fittest".

Biologically speaking, who do you thing would be most likely to procreate, sad guy who is constantly feeling really bad, or happy guy who feels pretty good most of the time? Who has the better chance of finding a mate or mates?

Who would a potential mate be more attracted to, sad, feeling bad guy, or happy fun guy?

Those analogies are all you need to know about human evolution.

Scientists, believe it or not, often manipulate data, or sometimes the data is wrong or fabricated in order to gain attention or grant money.

I have worked in the fields of molecular bio, micro bio, medicinal chem, toxicology and pharmacology, and have read many flawed papers and "studies". Don't believe everything you read or are being told by "authorities".

reply to post by Asktheanimals



Thank you for your thoughtful post and sorry to learn of your situation

My father's generation was expected to deal with it, and it was a case of 'to each his own' method. Generally though, the advice in those days was to get-busy. And it's still good advice.

The older generations were provided no counselling or medication. Yet there were millions, like my father, who'd survived the horrors of war. Those horrors included (in my father's case) of

* having to clean up the bodies of Glaswegian suicides who'd slit their throat, rather than conform with Royal Navy discipline and demands

* having to perform 'disciplinary actions' upon those sailors who'd gone AWOL or were guilty of refusal to follow orders. 'Disciplinary actions' were brutal and young officers (like my father) basically had to 'break' what were often very tough characters, in order to shape them into useful cannon-fodder who'd serve and obey without question .. without even an 'insolent expression'

* having to batten the hatches on aircraft carriers after a torpedo or other enemy hit .. knowing as the order to batten the hatches was given that hundreds of stokers and other common seamen were effectively condemned to being roasted alive beneath one's feet

All of these and many more incidents, in addition to spending 7 years in the centre of war-zones, killing and narrowly escapting being killed oneself, collecting body-parts, seeing close comrades blown to pieces, losing members of one's immediate family, etc. -- returning to civvy street to discover one's home has been levelled to the ground, economy severely depressed, unemployment rampant, severe food and other rationing, education and career disrupted or perhaps ended ....

yet these people had to deal with the horrors and hit the ground running in order to rebuild virtually everything. Often they were afflicted with Malaria and other diseases contracted during their war-time service. Some had limbs missing, or their faces were burned beyond recognition. Pre-war ambitions and dreams had vanished never to return ...

and NO counselling or support or medication

they were expected to be 'happy' that hositilities had ceased and to be happy to be alive

Of course they were despressed, suicidally depressed in many instances

But, their families had not had it easy either, living on the occasional chunk of horse-meat for special occasions .. burying their dead .. surviving without a bread-winner

So, despite wanting nothing more than to crawl into bed never to get up, these people, many of them very young, knew they had to put a brave face on. They knew people were relying upon them. They hadn't fought and risked their lives for their country/families simply in order to return home as burdens on those same families and societies

They lifted themselves up by their socks. Went on to re-start careers or embark on new ones altogether. They got stuck in and rebuilt their families, their societies, their communities, the bombed-out streets and infrastructure

In private, they mourned those they'd lost -- in many instances, men returning from war had only the bombed out foundations of their former family-homes. Their parents, wives, children, had been killed. All those returned service-people had when they returned were headstones in place of their children, parents, siblings, etc.

In public, they inspired, supported, encouraged each other. They laughed hard and worked hard. Their depression was something they dealt with in private .. perhaps while taking a shower. Those people formed the back-bone of the post-war world. They were regarded by younger generations as 'know nothing' oldies.

Younger generations 'agonised' over trivia: the Beat generation, the emergence of Rock and Roll, those hard decisions .. which car to buy, which outfit to wear, which college to attend, which hair-do was most 'in'

This generation .. NO generation .. has a monopoly on depression. Just as no individual experiences anything that hasn't been experienced by millions of others a million times before.

Depression isn't glamorous. It's not a cause unto itself. It rarely produces anything other than (as someone above said) 'circular thinking', obsessive focus on self, regurgitation of past events/emotions/'feelings'/doubts/angers etc. which leads to the mental-emotional colon being forced to digest the same meal, repeatedly

I agree with you -- despression cannot fester nearly as well in sunlight or in the company of others. It cannot take a person by the throat nearly as effectively if that person is engaged in physical or other activity.

Depression is dark. It likes isolation. It shuns gatherings. It doesn't WANT a remedy. It demands undivided attention. It produces next to nothing that is useful. It eats time and lives. Depression deserves a good slap in the face and to be sent running.

Depression can be a very seductive lover for some however

reply to post by Electro38



Keep writing and posting


You are a breath of fresh-air, combined with a common-sense approach that's like clear water being flushed on this topic

and you are positive, energetic, assured (hope your comments about the whore which has become the prescription-drug industry gain the attention they merit, too )

Well done

reply to post by Electro38


Sure, survival of the fittest applies simplistically to biological organisms.
But the rules change once we are dealing with cultural and conscious organisms.
We are not fighting to survive anymore, we dominate the planet and no other species stands as a threat to us. We are not living only to reproduce and pass on our genes. Society actually only develops because of those who are beyond their biological level of existence.

We are not evolving because of our genes anymore, we are evolving because of our ideas and behavior which is 100% modifiable just with the power of thought.

Human evolution occurs in three major steps and you are only regarding the first step which is biological. The other two are cultural and consciousness evolution.

You don't need a mate nowadays to be the "top" individual that makes the difference and changes the whole structure of our shared condition as a species.

[edit on 29-8-2009 by Geladinhu]

Response to post by Geladinhu




Sounds as if you're taking 'survival of the fittest' literally

Humans have dominated the planet for eons

And as regards evolution in consciousness, there's abundant evidence to suggest that as a species we are regressing, not evolving

There's no evidence to show that humans have evolved culturally, either. Look around

What Electro38 suggested still stands, imo: a positive (outside of 'self') approach is more productive than self-absorbed negativity (i.e., 'depression')




[edit on 29-8-2009 by St Vaast]

reply to post by St Vaast


Oh, I wasn't supposed to take it literally? He should explain what he meant better then because from what he said the only possible thing that I could understand from it was a literal meaning, specially because he mentioned that he worked with chemistry and biology exclusively, while my perspective comes from studies of anthropology, sociology and philosophy.

I agree that humans have dominated the planet for a long time thats why what he said didn't make sense to me.


"there's abundant evidence to suggest that as a species we are regressing, not evolving "

Oh yeah? Could you share that evidence? Is there even such thing as a regression? I don't think so. I think there is only change. If change is good the unit that changed keeps on going. If change is bad the unit that changed disappears. And well...humans seem to be going pretty good. I mean, we are almost reaching a population of 7 billion.

No evidence of humans advancing culturally? Well, to say something like that you would have to first delineate the concept of cultural advancement. What does that mean? How do you tell? You think we haven't evolved culturally from hunters and gatherers to industrialization? You may not agree that industrialization is an advancement, but well...it was because of it that we are reaching the population of 7 billion.

Don't get offended but I think that you are not being rational with this issue, I think you are being purely emotional. You can't accept that this self-absorption could be good just because you are extremely attached to your son. Because of the self-absorption your son doesn't respond to you like you expect him to respond so you are blaming something outside of yourself for the disappointment and misery that you are feeling when in reality its all about yourself and the way you see things. I understand, I also have a mother just like you. Please be more understanding, free yourself from the expectations and let it be.

Originally posted by St Vaast
There's no evidence to show that humans have evolved culturally, either. Look around.

(Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it).
So true. It's my humble belief that we should have been evolving spiritually, psychologically and culturally. It's really depressing that it seems like we haven't, at all.

Evolution favors organisms that can successfully procreate, survive and thrive. Organisms who are prone to disease, or who have a harder time adjusting, adapting, surviving are weeded out eventually, through the process of natural selection. I can't see how a mental illness such as clinical depression is a benefit to the process of human evolution.

Because a study is suggesting that some depressed people scored better on some test, so they conclude that depression helps it's victim to think more clearly? Depression makes a person better at problem solving?

The have it backwards, many people who are depressed also share a similar character trait, we tend to be analytical, deep thinkers.. Depression didn't make us those things. Personally when I'm very depressed I find it much harder to concentrate, problem solve, stay healthy and stay alive. I suspect it's the same for other sufferers.

I believe the increase in depressed people is a result of the some serious problems in society.

reply to post by Geladinhu


Thanks, Geladinhu. I needed to read something some another like you in this thread where I didn't have to feel 'de-evolved' or 'self-centered' or be blamed for something that someone 'thinks' we can 'just get over'.

Some others in this thread really miss the point. They pick out a few symptoms of depression and they think they can compare all people who are depressed by those few symptoms. It's not that they can't imagine any social evolution, yet they are stuck on thought they have a simple solution for depression.

Sometimes I wonder who really is 'depressed' when others get so stuck in their idea about people who are said to be depressed. In this thread some say depressed people get stuck, "'circular thinking', obsessive focus on self," Yet, it turns out that it is others that get stuck in the 'circular thinking' by how they react around someone who is said to be depressed. They get stuck with thought like 'oh, they can just get over it'. Or how about when they are stuck because they continually think depressed people are only "self-absorbed [with] negativity." In this last case, it isn't the one who said to be depressed who is actually negative.

As I said in the thread early, the most positive mind on this entire Earth could belong to someone who is unipolar.

People need to look past a few symptoms and see depression for what it is really. Carelessness leads to bad assumptions. Those bad assumptions are social de-evolution. Problem solvers see past bad assumptions and try to evolve. People who are depressed really don't want to stay depressed. If society is so de-evolved that they can't see past a few symptoms, then its easier for the person who is actually depressed to let others label them as depressed...and (the key point)... and move on to something more positive.

A person who can't move onto something more positive isn't depressed yet instead they are probably OCD or autistic. Being stuck in a certain thought is not a symptom of depression. Like I said earlier in the thread, it doesn't matter what I think, the depression is physical. Some here seem to totally ignore that point.

( started to ramble... moving on... )

reply to post by dzonatas


The real solutions aren't simple (as in easy), not in execution even if so in principle. Spiritual remedies are potentially painful but worth it, if you're up for it. The idea is to not let the physical master you but turn it into a tool.

Personally, I have found that people telling me to "just get over it" like it's nothing are usually also quite depressed themselves and self medicating, usually with alcohol. One person who was especially critical of me in the way you describe ended up committing suicide himself-- go figure. Obsessive behavior of an individual about another's problems probably indicates some level of identification with them.

[edit on 8/29/2009 by EnlightenUp]

Originally posted by Geladinhu
reply to post by Electro38

 

Sure, survival of the fittest applies simplistically to biological organisms.
But the rules change once we are dealing with cultural and conscious organisms.
We are not fighting to survive anymore, we dominate the planet and no other species stands as a threat to us. We are not living only to reproduce and pass on our genes. Society actually only develops because of those who are beyond their biological level of existence.

We are not evolving because of our genes anymore, we are evolving because of our ideas and behavior which is 100% modifiable just with the power of thought.

Human evolution occurs in three major steps and you are only regarding the first step which is biological. The other two are cultural and consciousness evolution.

You don't need a mate nowadays to be the "top" individual that makes the difference and changes the whole structure of our shared condition as a species.

[edit on 29-8-2009 by Geladinhu]

Those are good points, and very interesting, but I am speaking only about biology as the study which we are referring to in this thread does.

Now if the study said depression may help the evolution of human spirituality, culture, etc. then I would be making references to the points you brought up.

But regardless of that, do you really think depression is helping people think more clearly, solve problems better?

My belief is no it doesn't. I believe people (like me) who do suffer from depression are inherently more analytical anyway, we tend to be good at problem solving which is a personality trait we depressed people share. It's not a product of the depression itself.

When I'm depressed I can't do #, and I know most others who do suffer depression are the same. The shop closes down.

It's so interesting to read the posts in this thread

What's particularly interesting is the anger inherent in those who profess to champion 'depression' as an 'evolved' state

Whereas those who regard depression as being not condusive to productivity (mentally or otherwise) and as not being evidence of 'evolution', are demonstrably reasonable in their approach to both the topic and other posters

That in itself, says a great deal, imo

Originally posted by Electro38
I can't see how a mental illness such as clinical depression is a benefit to the process of human evolution.

I think you fail to understand that depression is a symptom and not a causation per se. We are not inherently born as depressed people. Although some studies may suggest that depression might be genetically passed on, there needs to be a "triggering" in order to make it active.

Depression is not an illness, its a response (or maybe mechanism of defense) to a social illness. We become depressed because we feel that something is wrong and that we should do something about it, but we can't even express ourselves about this because we know at least subconsciously that we will get heavily repressed and our viewpoint will be dismissed. Treating depression as a mental illness is a great example of this kind of attitude of which I call social illness. "Oh, he is not feeling alright? Something must be wrong with him, the world is perfect, can't you see, boy? You are the only one that feels that something is wrong. Here, have some anti-depressants so that you can see that the world is perfect like we see it."

You still can't see how depression can be a pin-pointer that evolution is happening? (Depression is not a benefit per se, its just a freaking symptom of the repression of other evolutionary benefits) Depression is the urge that some people feel to change when we as a society are currently fixated in the stagnation of egoism and materialism.

Its like the strong smell of a skunk. Although it may seem horrible and distasteful at first with a good analysis you will come to realize that its there for a good reason. Maybe even the poor skunk doesn't like its own smell, but it becomes inevitable for him to use this weird ability when his life is in danger. Depression works similarly, if our own perspective of the world or ideas is in danger subconsciously we trigger this kind of "social isolation" to preserve our uniqueness.

[edit on 29-8-2009 by Geladinhu]

reply to post by dzonatas


Hey, no problem.
I felt the urge to defend our kind. :p
I wasn't liking how this thread was going also, the argumentation was getting pretty biased and very partial.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
reply to post by dzonatas

 

The real solutions aren't simple (as in easy), not in execution even if so in principle. Spiritual remedies are potentially painful but worth it, if you're up for it. The idea is to not let the physical master you but turn it into a tool.

Indeed.

Sometimes one has to consider just how physical... the physical reaches. Some of the spiritual remedies help find that distinction. At times such distinction wouldn't delineated the physicalness of the psychological brain and the biological brain. Science knows there is an conscience anomaly, and that is true for both psychology and biology.

One can easily say by psychology or biology that a depressed brain is not being productive, yet there is always that doubt by the existence of such anomaly that the mind goes much further beyond the brain... and who is there to say the mind is depressed when the brain is depressed?

Not science. *wink*

reply to post by Electro38


Why can't we expand the discussion to other studies? The thread is about depression and not about the study per se. The study presented by the OP is only there to start with the development of the understanding of depression. Why should we even discuss if we are not to regard other studies?

I think depression is helping people to preserve their uniqueness so yeah, its a great benefit that is not really understood. No, I don't think that it helps people think more clearly. Like you said, people that have depression tend to naturally think more clearly ans solve problems better. I agree with you. Depression is a not a causation but a consequence.

Originally posted by St Vaast
It's so interesting to read the posts in this thread

What's particularly interesting is the anger inherent in those who profess to champion 'depression' as an 'evolved' state

Whereas those who regard depression as being not condusive to productivity (mentally or otherwise) and as not being evidence of 'evolution', are demonstrably reasonable in their approach to both the topic and other posters

That in itself, says a great deal, imo

I thought a lot about answering to your post. I have no need to prove you wrong and I think no one in this thread has inherent anger. Maybe some of us feel uncomfortable and have a great desire for change, but I'd guess that is just natural taking in perspective the condition of the whole world (war, greed, famine, diseases and so on).

So why I'm answering your post? Because I feel compassionate towards you and I really just want to help. You are the only one attacking other people here and immediately after that you are defending yourself like you are the one being attacked. I know you must be really confused. I know you must be feeling a wild mix of emotions.

Pay attention to what you are feeling and to what are you saying. Why do you feel the need to attack and defend? Are you fighting to maintain your attachment to your son? Do you feel the urge to receive back something from him after you've felt so much pain and worked so hard to put him in this world? I guess its understandable. Thats what mothers do, right? But remember, you need not to suffer. And the best way to avoid suffering is to stop putting blame on other things and take full responsibility for your own sentiments.

[edit on 29-8-2009 by Geladinhu]

Originally posted by Geladinhu
No, I don't think that it helps people think more clearly. Like you said, people that have depression tend to naturally think more clearly ans solve problems better. I agree with you.

That's all I'm saying, exactly. But the study is suggesting the opposite.

Well, maybe in some sadistic way clinical depression is helping people "preserve the uniqueness..." and lord knows I myself am quite "unique". My personal feeling is that it does no good for anyone.

Please tell me how suffering from depression can help someone, or as the study suggests benefit human evolution. I'm not an expert in any of this, but I would just like to know what people here think. How is it good?

I'm open to hearing possible ways it might be good.

Originally posted by Geladinhu

Why can't we expand the discussion to other studies? The thread is about depression and not about the study per se. The study presented by the OP is only there to start with the development of the understanding of depression. Why should we even discuss if we are not to regard other studies?

Oh no, we definitely can expand the discussion. I thought the points you made were very interesting. But, I was just trying to say that I have been referring to the study the OP posted so that people might understand my comments.

I know people who suffer from depression are sometimes more creative, deep thinkers, etc. I'm just saying that I don't think the depression itself is facilitating that, depression isn't a vehicle for creativity, problem solving, etc.

Maybe people who are prone to depression also share other character traits or genes that also make us more creative, good problem solvers, etc.

If evolution wants to select genes that make more depressed people who are deep thinkers and creative, I say lets go! I would fit right into that world.

It does seem like more people are taking meds for depression, but is that because more people are really depressed? I don't know.

Maybe evolution will favor depressed people. But that would mean the process of evolution will have changed, I guess that's possible. What a weird would that would be.

pretty cool stuff.

but isn't sleep apnea when you stop breathing during your sleep how can that be a good thing.

just sayin

S&F