I want your opinion ATS

I was raised in an Episcopal household, I was an alter boy for 10yrs. I stopped going to church when I left home but like many kept many of the values that were taught to me during the many years I went there. (Same church since before I can remember) While I was in school I decided to do my own research into religion. I studied the 3 major religions of the world Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I also studied several aspects of the "pagans" religions. I have read the bible from cover to cover at least twice; I have also read some of the torah and Qur'an but not cover to cover. What I came up with pisses a lot of people off and if you ask many caused me to lose my faith. I figure (and this is just my personal opinion) that the 3 major religions all started with Judaism. (Even Christ was a Jew) they all each the same basic fundamental thing. Respect for yourself and your fellow man. Where the differences occur is Jews acknowledge that Jesus Christ existed but say he was not the messiah and they are awaiting his first coming. Christians say that Christ is the messiah and await his second coming. Muslims believe that Christ was a prophet but Mohammad is the Messiah. (Of course these are just a few of the differences, Please fell free to correct me on any of this) This all leads me to say that they are all one religion that chooses to worship the same God in different ways.

Now one other thing they all have in common is that God is the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end, all knowing all seeing. He knew you were going to exist before Adam and eve was created. He knew what your whole life was going to be........well you get the point. All three books also say that we have free will. No this is where it gets tricky for me. You see while I have a strong religious background I also have a very scientific and analytical mind. If God, Allah, Yahweh know what we are going to do before we do it how can we be punished for it. Also how is that freewill? Sounds a lot like destiny to me. If it is destiny then that means no being no matter how powerful can possibly know what’s going to happen next. If that true then God either is a lie or is no where near as powerful as the bible claims, which would destroy the corner stone of all the major faiths. My heart says that god is real but my mind will not allow me to get past the whole freewill/destiny thing. So ATS what are your thoughts

reply to post by jmotley

If God, Allah, Yahweh know what we are going to do before we do it how can we be punished for it. Also how is that freewill? Sounds a lot like destiny to me. If it is destiny then that means no being no matter how powerful can possibly know what’s going to happen next. If that true then God either is a lie or is no where near as powerful as the bible claims, which would destroy the corner stone of all the major faiths. My heart says that god is real but my mind will not allow me to get past the whole freewill/destiny thing. So ATS what are your thoughts

Well lets look at it this way. Destiny means you are on a set course, that no matter what you have to choose this course. However, God not only knows what we are going to do before hand, but he also knows what we won't do. You also said you have a scientific mind, so therefore this is all made possible through Dimensional shifts and observations. Choices create free will, we have a choice that we can make, to either do or do not. Choice destroys destiny, because we can choose something instead of something else. Since we only have 2 core choices throughout our life (do or do not) its not hard to figure out what we are going to do next through Timelines and Dimensions.

If I lost you check out this thread:

Dimensions- a quick look into the Science

I don't see why God cannot use them. So have a look in that thread, we discuss Science and even cover for a few posts God and his ability to use them. Hopefully, it helps you out a bit, its a bit of reading, but its all quality

[edit on Aug 25th 2009 by TheMythLives]

Maybe it means we have free will, and "one" knows what's going to happen even if you have free will to change anything, because s/he is "one" and knows already. Or, maybe it's more inline with some of the older esoteric beliefs. That everything happened all at once, we just experience it in a linear way. There is just the now. And that's when it all happened. And as we are all a piece of "one" then "one" knows, as it was their experience too.

(not too comfortable with the word God, not sure why either)

reply to post by jmotley


WOW, you sound like me 20 years ago. I would first state that in my quest for spiritual truth, I came to the conclusion that although the "Big Three" religions claim to worship the same 'God', Yahweh, Allah, and the Trinity are very different 'beings'. This began my pondering of the true nature of the Divine. The conclusion that I came to was that all three are just dead wrong. The Divine is not a supernatural being, but instead is the Universe itself. Science has actually helped me to verify this to myself. Science now tells us that the entire Universe is comprised entirely of energy (matter being a complex form of energy) and that all of this energy is connected (Giant 'God' mind). After studying the Eastern philosophies, I then began to truly understand the Divine/Human connection. For a complete understanding of my 'definition of God', read the OP of this thread.

reply to post by jmotley


Deception is the name of the game....... choose wisely or lose.

Yahshua is "God With US" a holy "blood sacrifice". This is a very big deal. Check this video out and see what other "scientists/mathematicians/philosophers" do to "protect" themselves........ from........ What?

Chicken swinging for the soul

You need to figure out with whom you are playing.

Yahweh knows your "destiny".......... you/we do not. The "play" was written by Yahweh....... for us......... He has even written Himself into the script. The "play" is for you to "experience" and allows you to interact with your brothers and sisters in a controlled environment.(COG)

Weird Science used to be called sorcery, magic.... then alchemy..... now science.

Scientists are like little children who take apart their toys to discover how they work. No problemo with children taking apart toys and not being able to put them back together.... a disaster when Weird Scientists take apart their world and can't put it back together.

I think you have missed one of the "majors" of religion. Buddhism. You're not alone, though, my comparative religion professor gave short shrift to this Major World Religion as well. If you are going to study it, I recommend the Theravada branch. Also Zen. I'd give a bit of time to Taoism as well. Just to round out your education. Peace.

reply to post by joechip


I started studing the three I did because of the holes and contradictions within the bible. I felt like i need a bigger picture. But by no means is my research done, I just dont have the time to spead even a tenth of the time i did before. But just from my studies I now say I'm a spirital person and not a religious person

reply to post by jmotley


One mistake in your understanding. God knows all paths to the choices we make. The choice is still up to us and God gave us freewill. God knows the outcome of every decision made but doesn't necessarily need to know your entire future in advance. He knows what mankind's destiny is as a whole but the individual person still has freedom of choice and creates his/her own personal destiny within the overall destiny of mankind.

And just to correct you, Mohammad was not the muslim messiah. He was a prophet just as Jesus was to them. The Mahdi is the muslim messiah. You are right about the Jews though. All three Abrahamic religions worship the same God in different ways. The separation of these religion began with Abraham's two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael was the beginning of what would become the Arab or Muslim nations. Isaac through his son Jacob became the Jewish tribes. From the tribe of Judah came Christ for christians but Christ is not the same as God the Father. He is the Son of God and the Holy Spirit is God's power. There is no trinity. Good day to you.

I think there is a strong argument that Mohamed worshiped a local moon god, so is not the same god as the Jews worship.
Adam was created with free will but lost the full exercise of it when he decided to disobey God. With the exception of Jesus, we have all sinned. The fact that we are sinners makes our worship of God unacceptable. We have the possible path to acceptance through representation by Jesus. Our faith in Jesus comes through the promptings of the Spirit. We still can use our limited free will to rebel against God and reject the offer given by Jesus.

Two issues in the OP caught my eye.

First, while it is politically correct to say that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the "same God," this is visibly untrue. There are similarities among them, and an obvious historical progression, but each later religion adopted a different conception of the Godhead from the earlier religion(s).

No man is G-d in the Jewish conception. No man is Allah, either, but Allah does not have a personal relationship with mere creatures. G-d does.

Chuck Noland in Cast Away is not the same character as Robinson Crusoe.

Second, there is the perennial free will problem. I have no idea whether or not we have free will. However, choice being predictable is not evidence against free will. It suffices that my choices reflect my preferences and beliefs, and that somebody knows those things, for my choices to be predictable.

I am unsure what I would ask of "free will" if not that my choices should reflect my preferences and beliefs. Give me the free will I ask for, and the price I pay is that I am predictable. If further, someone knows my preferences and beliefs "perfectly," then I am perfectly predictable.

reply to post by eight bits


From what I see free will may be predicible to a point but it is by definition totally up to you. You make the choice to go left or right. Some one that feels that they are being predicible and that has free will can easily change that. ie let me go home this way today i never did that before. I gues what I'm getting at is when it comes to freewill vs destiny how can I be punished if God already knows what i am and am not going to do. Example, You know that if you do not walk your dog that he will piss in the house. He may try to hold it in for as long as possible but you know that eventually he will piss in the house. How can you punish that dog for that. You knew it would happen and you had the ability to make sure that it would not happen. Now if it's destiny then there is nothing that you could have done to stop it. Freewill and destiny are like oil and water the two can not mix.

reply to post by jmdewey60


You can not put limits on free will you either have it or you do not. Now there are things that happen outside of your relm of control but that does not put a limit on the amount of freewill that you have. If it is freewill then it's your choices that put you in the sitution that you are in now. If you you normally take rt 1 to go home but oday you decide to take rt 5 and you die in an accident was it just your time to go (destiny) or your choice that put you there (free will)

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by jmotley

 

God knows all paths to the choices we make. The choice is still up to us and God gave us freewill. God knows the outcome of every decision made but doesn't necessarily need to know your entire future in advance. He knows what mankind's destiny is as a whole but the individual person still has freedom of choice and creates his/her own personal destiny within the overall destiny of mankind.

If God does know the out come of every possible choice that we could ever make, That also means that he knows the path that we are going to take, that sounds a lot like destiny to me. If all of mankind has a destiny then that takes away our freewill. I'll use an example from the bible. In the endtimes God will send down 2 prophets after 70 days (if i remember correctly) they will be killed. Now this a destiny for the planet. this effects every single person on this earth. Lets just say that I am the one destined to kill them but I am dead set against murder also I realize that if they die then the rest of the prophecy is now able to continue. By your way of thinking I would have no choice in the matter of killing them. However i decided to try to get out of it this would come true. According to the bible it will be done and god in his ifinite wisdom already knows when, who, and how.

Now by this one act I have been stripped of all freewill. If this were to happen it would become clear that everything that happened to me my entire life was to prepare me for this. Now you tell me does that sound like freewill.

was it just your time to go (destiny) or your choice that put you there (free will)



It was both. Your choice led to the destiny, meaning God allowed it to happen by your choice.


Now you know the people in hell?

The ones who go throughout life trying to figure out where they are. Remember the song that says.


" My book is still unwritten "

The soul who made that secretly took a shot at jesus comments about the book of life.


The fact is that it is unwritten to us. Go outside and make your own destiny. God forsees but we don't know. If I made something and forseen it as an observer, that doesn't take away the fact that the soul who has free will and doesn't know anything still chooses their lives.


God will say to the souls in hell.


You not only went through life rebleling, but you went through life trying to figure out an end that you could of made yourself, and thus by your depressed lazines on a truth that human minds cannot understand you have chose hell through rebellion.


Do i sit around all day wondering if I'm destined for hell? No because I have the choice to believe and not chose hell.


Souls use this as an excuse to rebel, but the truth is that it's very logical considering time doesn't exist with God.


If your free will were gone, then you can't go to the fridge right now and eat a hamburger. You can do whatever you want.



and BTW posters, this argument always leads to a circular argument that never ends. I would advise to post once and let the OP soul decide on his own.


peace.




[edit on 27-8-2009 by JesusisTruth]

You haven't looked too much in the pagan religions because most have a Goddess, not a God.

Many have both, with Goddess being the stronger more worshipped of the two. Or they are equal.

Unless you get into the Greek or Roman or Hellinist aspects, then it is whichever ones of the dozens, many being male dominent that you choose.

reply to post by jmotley


you're not reading correctly. We all have free will as individuals. Now since the nature of mankind is destructive, God already knows what will happen to us as a whole. It is mankind's destiny. An individual has free will to do and choose whatever they want in life. God doesn't know before hand what you are going to choose. He does know every possible outcome of your choice. He knows you have the choice to go down path A, path B, or path C but doesn't know which path you will go down. He does know that path A leads to destination X, path B leads to destination Y and path C leads to destination Z. Each path you CHOOSE to take has a different outcome or destination and God knows what each outcome is.

Path A = path of righteousness.... destination X (First resurrection)

Path B = lukewarm... church of Laodecia..... destination Y (Second Resurrection who accept God at Judgement).

Path C = path of lawlessness and sin... destination Z (Second Resurrection who rject God at Judgement and are thrown into the lake of fire for a Second Death and then cease to exist).

Three possible "general" paths for each individual to follow. Those who truely follow God, those who will likely accept God in the future, and those who will reject God in the future.

It's your choice. The result of your choice is what God knows, but you have to make that choice before you are destined for greatness, humbleness or deception.

The cause is your choice. the effect is your destiny. Hence "cause and effect."

Originally posted by jmotley
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

You can not put limits on free will you either have it or you do not. Now there are things that happen outside of your relm of control but that does not put a limit on the amount of freewill that you have. If it is freewill then it's your choices that put you in the sitution that you are in now. If you you normally take rt 1 to go home but oday you decide to take rt 5 and you die in an accident was it just your time to go (destiny) or your choice that put you there (free will)

Obviously there is limits. You can choose to pursue a sport but you can not choose to be in the Olympics. You can, but that does not mean you will. You can be good at what you do but you are not very likely to get an invitation. This is a limited analogy because lots of people participate in the Olympics. That fact that they are there may have more to do with something beyond their will, such as a natural born ability. Like Phelps, the swimmer. He happens to have a perfect body for swimming. If he did not, and was very ordinary in his build, his wishing would not have won him any gold medals.
We have inherited bodies good for warfare and are natural born killers. Not the best sort for inhabiting heaven. All the wishing in the world is not going to make us angels.

[edit on 28-8-2009 by jmdewey60]

Well, I call what you talk about as the father and son relationship.

The father is within you, it is the father within you which gives you consciousness and the ability to perceive "reality". Without this bit within you, "you" would not exist at all. You would be like a robot, unconscious and just doing whatever you were programmed too.

In other words, you are god and so is everyone else. But you are not the father, you are the son. The difference is merely in perception.

The father is all knowing, and as such he also knows all possibilities and so forth. Everything which is possible the father knows. Because of this, nothing new happens for the father. The universe/creation is static in the perspective of the father, like a painting that never moves.

I use movie films to explain this. If you view the entire film at once, then you are viewing creation like the father. You are viewing everything in that movie film at once. There is no change, and no time in that film. However, when you take that same film and cut it up into frames, and play only a single frame at a time 1 after the other, then suddenly you get time, change and the experience of the movie. To watch the movie is to be the son.

Thus, you are god, but the father is much greater than us. So great, that we can't even really truly imagine what that is. We can talk about it with abstract words, but not truly take it in. If you were to actually see that, then "you" as an individual would cease to exist. Because you just went from movie mode, to film mode. The limited perception we have as humans on this earth is a requirement for the experience. Change the perception and you change the experience completely. To do so is basically the death of the soul, the death of the individuality within the father. "You" just become absorbed by the father.

But because all knowing also means all possibilities, it means rather than 1 film it's a bunch of films stacked on "top" of each other. This enables free will and choice. One could say the choices you make is your destiny and such, but that is really just to say we carry a linear experience/time line.

In the end, choice is what determines the "path" across those possibilities. Now, the level in which choice has effect in this "reality" is up for grabs, but we can choose a good bit of things. The level required to change the color of the moon or something, seems a bit out of reach here.

Because part of free will is the ability to give it away. You do this when you play a game. Take poker for example. You agree to laws/rules of the game. We do this in order to have an experience. For example, if the cards in a poker game were all face up, then you couldn't experience the game. Nobody would ever bet unless they knew they would win. So nothing physically stops you from see the cards, but you purposely limit yourself and agree to a set of rules for the experience.

The point is to find the father within you. He will give you understanding and wisdom. Don't accept what people say, find out for yourself. The bible can't give you those things, neither can any man. Even while I can tell you the father is within, to believe me is not the same as finding it for yourself and actually knowing that rather than having a belief.

You make the choice to go left or right.

That argument reaches God, too. If he does not have free will (because his own actions are perfectly predictable to him), then you cannot complain that he punishes you, since he has no choice in the matter.

In order for the problem to bite, somebody needs to be both perfectly predictable and also have free will. Once that is in play, then it cannot be that perfect predictability and free will are incompatible.

I guess what I'm getting at is when it comes to freewill vs destiny how can I be punished if God already knows what i am and am not going to do.

Well, I am an agnostic, so I don't worry too much about being punished by God for my sins, since if he exists, I am toast anyway.

I agree that it would be unjust to punish the dog. But the reason why it is unjust is that I have prevented him from obeying my wishes by confining him in the house. I have removed his capacity to behave as I would like him to behave. The choices I have left him are that he can die of a burst bladder, which is an even bigger mess than his pissing on the rug and is not what I wish anyway, or he can piss on the rug.

So, from the dog's point of view, I have "intervened in history," sort of like when God hardened Pharaoh's heart against Moses' petition. It would be dicey for God to punish Pharaoh for that, not because God knew what Pharaoh would do, but because God removed Pharaoh's option to cooperate.

reply to post by nixie_nox


When I say God I am impling an all knowing enitity. no male no female. no corporal being. All enitity with the amount of knowlege and power as we say this enitity or entities have it is well beyond our comprehenision. So please when I say God do not think I am only talking about the christian God or just a male.