Masons and conspiracy theories

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Freemasonry does not claim or pretend to hold secret keys of divine knowledge; it merely encourages its initiates to study philosophical and mystical disciplines that are available outside of the fraternity, such as Qabalah and Platonic philosophy. It is in the study and practice of these disciplines, not in Freemasonry per se, that the keys of knowledge lie.

Undomiel~~this is the point that ML made with me. Masons may have certain areas that are unknown to non-Masons. But, the is true of many groups: withholdong certain data from non-members.
The are other avnues to mystical knowledge, some of which have been mention in this thread.
And, it is this divine knowledge which is hidden. And feared. So, it seems, Masonry is unjustly charged with being keepers of "hidden knowledge"--and it apparently is not the case.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
K, AK, and ML, my hat(s) off to you! Three incredibly well thought out, concisely stated, and comprehensive posts in a row.

Ha, I tell you, thanks for that insert. I tend to feel way out of my league when you guys get to explaining things.
Your efforts are appreciated.

[Edited on 24-5-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]

AlexKennedy,

To coin Neo, "Whoa." Been awhile since anyone refered to me as a Lady with a capital "L". Mom lived with me for 8 years, she had advanced alzheimers and forgot my name, so she just called me "hey lady." She was a sweety, even so. Anyway, thanks for offering the information you feel comfortable in divulging. I agree that a private club should have every right to retain their privacy, and that freemasonry should only divulge its secrets if it is decided to do so. I also believe because of this age of mass communication and instant communication, it's actually working against freemasonry. On the other hand, I believe that the purpose of the tokens is an important one, as I have been the receipent of religious persecution by both the religious and the non-religious and could see where such a thing could come in handy.

And finally, when I was young, my dad lost his job he had had for several decades when the business he worked for sold its business routes to a new corporation, which then summarily ripped off all the men who had purchased expensive vehicles and delivery routes. He was too old to get a new job making the same kind of money. Then one day, he encountered another freemason, who helped him get another job. So I have freemasonry to thank for the continued comfortable existence of my family and myself as I was getting really tired of powdered eggs.

As my esteemed colleague has pointed out the original requirements (32nd in SR or KT in YR) to enter the Shrine were eliminated in August of 2000. The conception that you had to be an OMG 33rd degree Mason to walk the "Hot Sands" has some validity (only as a perception). The Shrine of old was a rich man's club. The anecdote I have for this is my Grandfather, a man of more than considerable means (was in aviation early, and rode it well past retirement) who got his "Blue Hat" 16 years ago, but never once considered becoming a Shriner because in his day it was for "Doctors, Lawyers, Bankers, and Big Businessmen". You can imagine how puzzled he was when I joined the Shrine at a relatively young age (early 30's) and then absolute astonishment at jumping in "Line" to be Potentate at 37! I�ve progressed beyond that, and after a couple of years decided that at this time, I had no time (I also didn't have a wife and the DON thought this was scandalous ) and gracefully stepped away to pursue other aspects of this great Fraternity. I hope this helped somehow with what you are looking for.

Ha! MM, I'm beginning to think that if you're not married when you become a Freemason, you never will be (I hope it's not so, though... I don't look forward to being a highly acclaimed old Mason who has to sleep alone at night )

Seriously, though, in regard to things said by DTOM and U (sorry, short name = one initial ). This is an extremely important point in all mystical thought. The idea of the truth about God being literally hidden to young initiates is actually a metaphor for the fact that in real life, God is hidden, as is true understanding. I have a great deal of difficulty speaking about this because I know of no way to communicate this truth with words. True understanding is ineffable.

To say it another way, we train the "young" initiate to remain silent, so that the "old" initiate will be aware that it is impossible to express certain truths in words.

As a matter of fact, almost every important truth I have learned as a Mason is not expressible in words. If everything was expressible in words, why not just write an essay about it and have it done with? There'd be no need for ceremonials, and we could get straight to the excellent meals

By way of illustration, I'll tell you something I often hear from my Brothers: "What non-Masons don't realise is that the biggest secret of Masonry is the Brotherhood or Charity or Mystic Tie or male bonding or whatever you want to call it." I don't agree that this is the biggest secret, but it is an important one, and you have to experience it to understand it.

Undomie:

As other brothers have stated you have options in your quest for Masonic knowledge. The Order of Eastern Stars is a great place to start. Another option is the Ancient Accepted Primitive Rite of Memphis Misraim, it admits women and men, and has both single and mixed sex lodges. Information regading them can be found here,here and here. Hope it helps.

Additionally I just wanted to add my 2 cents to the topic of Masonic secrets and how research can ruin the experience for the candidate. As one who knew a great deal about Freemasonry before joining, and studied copies of the ritual books, I can say that yes, knowning certain things before hand does in fact take away from the experience. However the ritual books don't have everything in them, and some lodges do add their own little spice to the experience. In short there were many aspects of my initiation and progression through the blue lodge which I knew nothing about, (thankfully) for this made the experience much more grand. Reading about the rituals and going through them are two drastically different experiences rendering drastically different results, there is no comparison between the two.

My advice to those who are considering joining the craft is to research all you like but leave the ritual books alone, you will ruin the experience for yourself.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

As a matter of fact, almost every important truth I have learned as a Mason is not expressible in words. If everything was expressible in words, why not just write an essay about it and have it done with? There'd be no need for ceremonials, and we could get straight to the excellent meals

Yes ,YES, Indeed!

I totally agree with this statement. Students of life will learn that the truth isn't a bunch of book knowledge or secrets handed down through the ages, the truth is much like god, its boundless, limitless, its larger than that and can't be explained by words, it can't be dated. I remember some years ago before I was a Mason while knee deep (as I still am) in my quest I was discussing some historical information I had discovered with my God Father (who is a Mason, although he did not know I was aware of this). So here I am spewing out all of this information and these facts and dates and people and places and I knew him to be a well studied, knowledgeable man so I expected a response with, well... knowledge, facts, his opinion etc. Well I got nothing of that sort but what I did get was a great deal of wisdom. He said "Son, none of that matters." I was shocked, dissapointed and confused, but I never forgot what he said. Years later I would have the greatest revelation in my life, I found that truth which I had been seeking, it was simple and pure, and at that moment I understood exactly what my God Father had meant. The truth wasnt found in an event or a secret scroll or anything of that nature, it was found through my journey, through my experience of researching so many topics for so many years till one day it hit me, and all of a sudden none of those things mattered anymore. Why? Because the truth is not dependent upon them, the truth was here before these events and will be here after them, the truth inspired the events themselves, the truth is God, and it is all around us. This very statement is the greatest illustration of this post itself, I can tell you what the truth is as I just have, yet its not important to you the individual reader until you find it and discover it yourself through your journey, and that is the greatest feeling in the world.

Hotep

[Edited on 5/24/04 by Khonsu]

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
I have a great deal of difficulty speaking about this because I know of no way to communicate this truth with words. True understanding is ineffable.
As a matter of fact, almost every important truth I have learned as a Mason is not expressible in words.

And there lies our greatest Catch22.

I totally agree with the above. How can anyone explain exactly what masonry is through words? If I sit with a friend who wants to join, I have to spend at least 3 or 4 hours talking to him about masonry and explain to him what he will be discovering, but even then I can only scratch the surface. Even then, I can only tell him what I have experienced and that there is no guarantee that he will go through the same.
Take a look around. You have to write a book if you want to explain freemasonry in any depth. Even then, that book can be taken out of context because it is a subject so easily open to different interpretation.
It's impossible to explain the deepest secret of freemasonry. How can anyone explain what is in their heart?
Add to this the sad but true fact that there are a lot of masons who do see masonry as just a social club, and you even get conflicting stories amongst the brethren of what freemasonry is. It is just so many things to so many different men, is it any wonder that the message coming out isn't always consistent?

I disagree that the information age is harming us. Most intelligent people can glean from the vast amount of material that we aren't up to anything conspiratorial. And we ourselves, are now able to answer those that do have hate agendas against us, whereas before we had to sit in silence. Sure, the cry goes up that we are secretive, but you really are living in the past if you think that we haven't opened up massively in the past few years. The fact that there are so many freemasons posting their thoughts on the internet proves that the secrecy argument has had it's day.


[Edited on 25-5-2004 by Leveller]

Imhotep wrote:

Are Masons part of the NWO ?

No... and since there is no such thing, it is easy to refute...

I think so . Only 6 U.S presidents have-not been Masons. Most Judges are Masons.Many policemen are Masons. Defence lawyers are Masons .Prosecution lawyers are Masons. Jurors are Masons.

Well, lets see, where to start... the presidents, I think, as that is easiest. There are only 17 masons that have ever been president, on one of them was only an EA (Johnson) who never went further. And since we are now are 47, that means 30 have NOT been masons, making it 17/47, or 36% that have been masons. As for the rest... so what? Masons take part in society, just as any other group does. So much for your prima facie case.

Masons help cover for one another, they help one another to get promotion over more suitable candidates.

And of course,you know this... how? I hire Masons, in business and professionally, that is true, but not because of any secret cabalistic reason, but because I KNOW I can trust a Mason. I know what I am getting when I hire one, and I make no secret of that fact.

If I am looking for a mechanic, I go out of my way to find a mason, if I am looking for a lawyer, the same, if I am looking for a car, the same. In every way, I look to HELP a brother... is there something wrong with this? No. Do I do this to the detriment of someone? No, not deliberately, but we have all of us hired what we know and who we know.

As for promoting over more suitable candidates? That is nonsense. Masonry will get you the opportunity, but if you do not perform, I hire or take my business somewhere else.

Lots of politicians are also Masons.

Rather, SOME politicians are also masons. Those that are make no secret of it. John Glenn is one.

Now in amongst all of these people all it takes is one corrupting influence to manipulate other Masons and all of a sudden you have a conspiracy on your hands.

This is ridiculous. Most people in this country are Christians... more likely you will find a conspiracy of any nature between two christians. Does that make Christianity evil? No, of course not, so how can you paint Masonry with that nasty hateful brush?

Whether willingly or unwillingly Masons are most definitely part of the NWO.

Hmmm, nothing you have presented here is evidence, by any stretch of the definition. Are you one of those that ascribes to the illogical precept that a lack of evidence IS evidence, you do you live by gut alone?

The EVIDENCE, overwhelmingly, is that Masonry is a group of good men, doing good work, striving to be better men, in service to their fellows, their country, their families and god.

I will stick with the evidence and eschew the primal...

INIGO (Actually MM),
drunk as a skunk, sprawled in front of a hovel, a bottle of brandy in one hand, the six-fingered sword in the other. He looks dreadful. Unshaven, puffy-eyed, gaunt. But the way he brandishes the great sword in front of him would give anyone cause for worry.

INIGO
I am waiting for you, Vizzini. You told me to go back to the beginning. So I have. This is where I am, and this is where I'll stay. I will not be moved.
He takes a long pull from his brandy bottle. He stops as the Assistant Brute comes into view.

ASSISTANT BRUTE (Take your pick, there's plenty of them around here)
Ho there.
INIGO
I do not budge. Keep your "Ho there."
(He waves his sword dangerously)
ASSISTANT BRUTE
But the Prince gave orders --
INIGO
-- So did Vizzini -- when a job went wrong, you went back to the beginning. And this is where we got the job. So it's the beginning, and I'm staying till Vizzini comes.

Kind of lost me TD, I forgot how long ago I's post was and that little exchange popped into my head. So to the beginning we go (after all, it's a great place to start!). Might want to check Harding's status (some dispute I believe) but other than that I agree with your post, But what took you so long?

For those that just can't resist some of the great one liners of a "Princess Bride".

Mirthful Me: That "jhova," he likes to fuss.

AlexKennedy: Fuss... fuss... I think he is a fool, alas!

MM: Alex, are there rocks ahead?

AlexKennedy: If there are we'll soon be dead!

MasonicLight: Stop all that rhyming now, I mean it!

AlexKennedy: Does anybody want a peanut?!

You know, I think one of the high points of my movie-quoting career was when I had the actual, real-life opportunity to say "It's not my fault I'm the biggest and the strongest... I don't even exercise," in an apropros situation, and a person listening, a girl I happened to particularly dig at the time, GOT IT!

MM:

But what took you so long?

I dunno... I guess I came in late and missed the other replies... what can I tell you?

I just "heard" about this forum and decided to look it over. I have been a MM for three years now, and unfortunately, one of my first encounters with online chats was Freemasonrywatch.org, where I acquired a tic, a real bloodsucker, CMB, who stalked and harrassed me for quite some time.

I am not a moderator at surfsteve, The Lodgeroom and Ministry of Masons

www.surfsteve.com...
p212.ezboard.com...
p081.ezboard.com...

and have assisted in closing down 6 freemasonrywatch clones, and, frankly, freemaonsrywatch itself in two incarnations by revealing who was hosting and supporting it, forcing them to close and move it to a new site, hidden by an anonymous service.

Along with many brothers and friends, we complained about impersonations, defamations, slanderous postings, viruses, trojans, copyright infringements etc that got their little hate site shunted around for quite some time, kicked off ezboard four times and bravenet two times.

So, I guess I have been busy, and should have posted that reply earlier...

Thanks for the welcome, and come vist one of those sites when you get a chance.

R. Theron Dunn
Junior Warden
Evergreen #259
Riverside, Ca

[Edited on 27-5-2004 by theron dunn]

I'm a Knight of St. Andrew, a Master Mason and a 32nd Degree Mason. We have no part of any New World Order and have no plans to take over the world. (If we were, I'd take Paraguay when it all came down.)

Anyone who has a desire to commit treason or an atheist is not allowed to join either Masonry or the Scottish Rite (the organization that issues the following 28 degrees to Master Masons.) Masons consistently pledge their faith and obedience in the Creator and their allegiance to their country.

Their reason-to-be is as a charitable organization, to serve God and to become a better man. An imposter or insincere Mason is quickly found out.

The reason so many are on this website is obvious to Masons but perhaps not to the public at large. Masons have a greater interest in math and science than most people and a desire to search for truths that are not evident to most. ATS provides diverse opinions on a wide range of subjects, and the incursion of Masons to this site - if given some thought - will become clear.

If anyone wishes to know some famous Masons as examples, go to the website mentioned below and click on the front-page icon. That, more than any written argument, should allay any concerns about Masonic purposes.

Robert Walker O'Neal www.onealclan.com

Points to be said:
1) Masons have to admit they believe in a 'universe architect'. Other than this, religion does not come into play in Masonic meetings, etc.
2) Politics is not an issue of discussion at Masonic meetings..
3) Many powerful people are Masons.. the Grandmaster of the United Kingdom Lodges is His Royal Highness the Duke of Kent....
No, I'm not a Mason
but my school has an old-boys Masonic lodge which I would love to join
Though, from a friend whose father is a Mason, they do learn some wierd things, for example, for a ritual, he had to learn the dimensions (or something similar) of King Solomen's Temple..
Still, whatever floats your boat really.

Originally posted by theron dunn
MM:

But what took you so long?

I dunno... I guess I came in late and missed the other replies... what can I tell you?

Well, this is a bit off-topic, but it wouldn't be a first for this thread.
Let me welcome you to ATS, where there are some non-Masons who don't flame Masons. Enjoy your stay here...I'm sure you'll get to know the other Masons here quite well. They seem to mesh quite well together. *hmmmm*

I now return you to the topic!!!!!!!

Originally posted by 2012
I'm a Knight of St. Andrew, a Master Mason and a 32nd Degree Mason...

Masonry or the Scottish Rite (the organization that issues the following 28 degrees to Master Masons.)

An imposter or insincere Mason is quickly found out.

If anyone wishes to know some famous Masons as examples, go to the website mentioned below and click on the front-page icon.

Robert Walker O'Neal www.onealclan.com

2012, you keep referring to being a "Knight of St Andrew", I can only assume you are referring to the 29th Degree of the SRSJ (certainly not the military decoration from Russia, circa 1886?) if that is the case ALL the SRSJ Masons throughout the world are "Knights of St Andrew". Also, we are first, last, and always Master Masons, please rethink the order of your introduction (the need for which continues to befuddle me).



In the SRSJ there are 29 degrees conferred to the Candidate during a reunion.

The accuracy of your self referred website has been raised before by both myself, and by ML, but why reference it at all? ATS is about ideas, not pumping your visitor count. Just a couple of observations.

p.s. DTOM you may flame me at will, but keep me rare (I'd hate to be dry)

[Edited on 27-5-2004 by Mirthful Me]

I'd just like to point out
You advertise the Bible Code as 'a science'
It has been thoroughly debunked, the challenge was made, 'If someone can find the prediction of the assassination of a head of state in Moby Dick, then I wont believe in the Bible Code' by the author of the Bible Code (Drosnin?) and gee, guess what, several have been found, Diana, Ghandi, etc
I was in a lecture theatre when the Bible Code was debunked by one of Britian's leading experts on Code-breaking (he's a physicist.. been on TV alot)
You could grab any random book and start plucking text from it and call it predictions
I thoroughly believe that once you debunk a person, you debunk any serious claims he has made that arent thorougly backed up. Goodbye.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
2012, you keep referring to being a "Knight of St Andrew", I can only assume you are referring to the 29th Degree of the SRSJ (certainly not the military decoration from Russia, circa 1886?) if that is the case ALL the SRSJ Masons throughout the world are "Knights of St Andrew". Also, we are first, last, and always Master Masons, please rethink the order of your introduction (the need for which continues to befuddle me).

In the Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction USA, Knights of St. Andrew, also known as the Order of the Thistle, is a Club for 32� members only, and is usually responsible for helping organize fundraising, assisting in degree work, receiving dignitaries, performing various Temple functions, etc. The organization is for Black Cap members only, and it excludes KCCH and 33� members, which gives our new members a chance to become active in the Rite, and to be received in leadership positions.
Chapters of Knights of St. Andrew have an independent ritual that is different from the 29�, which bears the same title.

Fiat Lvx.

Thanks for the clarification ML, you have refreshed my memory. Our Valley goes by the "Thistle" moniker, and spend most of their time reminding everyone else that they are in the "Thistle" (particularly a Blue Lodge/Shrine activist, such as myself), we tend to chuckle and bet on "Red Hat" potential (odds against, for the betting man who may read this).

Originally posted by Mirthful Me

p.s. DTOM you may flame me at will, but keep me rare (I'd hate to be dry)

Never fear, MM!
I would not want that fez in flames I save my flaming for more serious outrages.
Keep up the good work, oh fezzed one

Hmmm. Here's a link to a list of all US presidents, astronauts, world leaders, celebrities, etc., who are Masons. All these are famous people.
onealclan0.tripod.com...