Healthcare rationing: Real scary

reply to post by Kaytagg

I mean come on. Republicans are just idiotic on every level. They know absolutely nothing.

I highly resent being lumped in with the far right. I am an atheist and an individual. This country is on the brink of Bankruptcy and the leeches - thats YOU - want to suck the last little bit of blood from the dying corpse.

WE ARE IN A DEPRESSION!

The real Unemployment rate is 15.8% , some say as high as 23% and that is a depression.


But it gets worse:

Fact: The top-earning 1% of US taxpayerss pay more than one third (39.4%) of all federal individual income taxes collected.

Fact: The top-earning 1% of US taxpayers earn only one fifth (21.2%) of all federally taxable individual income.

Fact: The top-earning 1% of US taxpayers pay more than half again (56.0%) more of the total individual income tax load than they did when President Reagan left office (1989 tax year)

Fact: The top-earning 1% of US taxpayers are facing frivolous lawsuits in phenomenal numbers, simply because our lax tort laws make them easy targets of opportunity.

Fact: The top-earning 1% of US taxpayers are in more danger of government seizure (forfeiture*) of their private property than ever before in our history, due in part, to the Patriot Act.

Fact: The top-earning 1% of US taxpayers are Leaving the USA at the highest rate in history.

An insidious, creeping cancer is eating away at our economy. Not only the Income Tax, but other legislative and regulatory attacks on wealth are forcing many of the people who pay the lion's share of taxes, to leave the United States and because of some of that legislation, they are taking their wealth with them, thus, very disproportionately reducing the tax and investment base in the United States. Source

And even Worse:
Much of our industry is not owned by Americans Foreign Ownership of US Domestic Industries

And we are not equipped to pull ourselves out of the mess. Liberals have been so busy tearing down "social inequalities" they never noticed they tore down the whole infrastructure of the country while they were at it.

"For 10 years, William Schmidt, a statistics professor at Michigan State University, has looked at how U.S. students stack up against students in other countries in math and science. "In fourth-grade, we start out pretty well, near the top of the distribution among countries; by eighth-grade, we're around average, and by 12th-grade, we're at the bottom of the heap, outperforming only two countries, Cyprus and South Africa." :Source Is it any wonder Corporations now import workers from other countries?

... Surveys of corporations consistently find that businesses are focused outside • the U.S. to recruit necessary talent. In a 2002 survey, 16 global corporations complained that American schools did not produce students with global skills. United States companies agreed.

The survey found that 30 percent of large U.S. companies “believed they had failed to exploit fully their international business opportunities due to insufficient personnel with international skills.” One respondent to the survey even noted, “If I wanted to recruit people who are both technically skilled and culturally aware, I wouldn’t even waste time looking for them on U.S. college campuses.”...

In 2000, 28 percent of all freshmen entering a degree-granting institution required remedial coursework Source

SO WHERE is the money going to come from for these Obama programs???? Are we going to start taxing unwed mothers???

The evidence of fifty years of "social progress" here in the USA shows "socialism is sharing the misery" it certainly isn't about helping everyone being the best they can be.

Originally posted by crimvelvet
The evidence of fifty years of "social progress" here in the USA shows "socialism is sharing the misery" it certainly isn't about helping everyone being the best they can be.

In view of that fact that the last 20 years saw stagnant wages for working people, as well as a widening income gap, I fail to find an iota of common sense in this statement of yours.


[edit on 17-8-2009 by buddhasystem]

reply to post by crimvelvet


Well we can agree on one thing, the top 1% of earners should not be taxed -- at all.

reply to post by Kaytagg

All I know is republicans are not smart at all. Death panels? Government takeover? Socialism? Please. I don't think the Democrats represent my views, but I KNOW the Republicans don't represent my views. Conservatives are so darn hypocritical about everything. They want less government, except when it comes to our liberties and freedom, the patriot act, big wasteful military budgets, and wars that weaken our army and slaughter innocent people. They are so not-smart that it's a wonder they haven't accidentally drowned themselves while drinking water. They think the earth is 5000 years old. They think evolution is a myth. They think oil regenerates itself faster than we're using it. They think the environment doesn't matter -- because jesus will fix it. I mean come on. Republicans are just idiotic on every level. They know absolutely nothing.

Normally, I would not quote an entire post. However, in this case, I need to, because virtually everything that you said needs addressing.

First of all, to generalize and say that ALL of any group "are not smart at all" indicates a real lack of discriminating thought. How can you make such statements?

Bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

www.merriam-webster.com...

They think the earth is 5000 years old.

Well, the majority of people I know, both conservative and liberal believe no such thing.

They are so not-smart that it's a wonder they haven't accidentally drowned themselves while drinking water.

Since virtually every conservative alive drinks water, that in itself refutes your claim. LOL!

They think evolution is a myth.

Well, the fact that evolution is still called a theory, means that it hasn't been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Personally, I'm not sure what to believe in this area. I have an open mind, and also realize that the entire question of how the universe came to be, is way beyond my mind to fathom.

They think oil regenerates itself faster than we're using it.

REALLY? Actually, most people that I know, both liberal and conservative, believe that we are quickly running out of oil.

They think the environment doesn't matter -- because jesus will fix it.

Well, I am a Christian, and believe no such thing. In fact, I believe that Jesus addressed issues related to the soul, spirit and behavior towards others. In fact, nowhere in the Bible is the environment mentioned as an issue, unless you consider some of the passages in Genesis to be such. (News Flash- Genesis happened way before Jesus appeared on earth!)

Republicans are just idiotic on every level. They know absolutely nothing.

So you are saying that you are a Republican then?

You do realize that the attitude you hold, namely the "them versus us" attitude does nothing to advance understanding and valid debate?

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


You just don't get it do you, EVERYONE has a right to healthcare, just one person being denied is too many, right now we have millions and spare me the socialist bias crap, I have lived for a time in a nightmarish socialist country with free healthcare and it was superb, our healthcare system here is corrupt and pitiful by comparison.

I have a friend who was forced to talk to an HMO nurse on the phone while her child was having a seizure - failure to get approval for the ER visit would have saddled her with the full bill even if her child subsequently died.

This is the system you cling to?

Like I said, ultimately, this is all academic. You can moan all you want, but you will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century with the rest of us, it was just the same with women's rights and civil liberties back in the 60s, the conservatives resisted then too. Healthcare reform will be just another item on the list, it'll just take a while to get it past the knuckle draggers.

Seems as if *snip* watch too much TV, mostly MSNBC or CNN.

every post i've read that suggests that they aren't against the current direction the country is taking is equal to what MSNBC and Anderson Cooper have been saying "Doing nothing is worse than just letting things continue as they are".

But their doing nothing means they should do something.
But their "something" is limited to the worst possible direction.

So essentially it's "let's add fuel to the fire to try to put the fire out" that they are saying.

Whether it's republican or democrat it doesn't matter.
What's wrong is wrong.
Stop limiting your thought process to the two-party system.

Hyperinflation, overspending packages, bailing out friends, reformed health INSURANCE and loss of freedoms all wrapped up in marketing and great speeches.

Ya, moving ahead?
The only thing that's moving ahead is the administration's marketing tactics.

Come on people, WAKE UP!



Reaffirming Our Desire For Productive Political Debate (REVISED)

[edit on 17-8-2009 by DontTreadOnMe]

reply to post by buddhasystem

In view of that fact that the last 20 years saw stagnant wages for working people, as well as a widening income gap, I fail to find an iota of common sense in this statement of yours.

Why do you think the wages went down? The money for increased taxes, OSHA compliance, EPA compliance and compliance with the rest of the government alphabet soup had to come from some where and it wasn't from the stockholders pockets. A corporation makes money or it is out of business and everyone is out of work. Costs get passed on to the consumer or taken out of the employees salaries, if you do not do that you go out of business it is that simple.

"Most people think that corporate income taxes are paid by wealthy, anonymous companies," said Scott Hodge, President of the Tax Foundation. "But as economists have been teaching for years, people bear the burden of corporate taxes, not companies."

Research from the Congressional Budget Office shows that in a global economy where capital is highly mobile but workers can't easily move abroad, workers end up bearing the brunt of corporate taxes. In 2007, Economist William Randolph found that 70 percent of corporate tax burdens fall on employees through lower wages and productivity... Source

And WHO pushed ratification of the World Trade Organization in 1995??? It was Clinton, a democrat. So now US workers must compete with the slave labor in China

But I was actually referring to the trashing of our education system. Without good education the American Worker can not compete against the better educated Chinese, Japanese and Indian workers that companies import into the USA.

Why is it liberals want the government to have all kinds of programs but when it comes time to pay for all these wonderful programs they think the money is going to come out of corporate pockets? It may originally come out of corporate pockets but the cost gets passed on to all the rest of us immediately. Didn't you notice the price of oil goes up and the price of everything else follows???

[edit on 17-8-2009 by crimvelvet]

reply to post by crimvelvet


Part of being educated in knowing what a scientific theory is.

Part of being educated is knowing the earth is older than 5000 years.

Part of being educated is not believing that Noa's Ark is a TRUE story.

Part of being educated is having adequate math skills.

Part of being educated is having critical thinking skills, and the ability to at least recognize a non sequitur.

I see NONE of this coming from the republican party. In fact, they seem to promote the exact opposite. Just ask Sara Palin about death panels, or George Bush about whether the jury is still out on evolution.

We're never going to have intelligent children until the religious right loosens its death grip on the political system of this country. Unfortunately, 3/5ths of you people reading this right now will disagree with me completely, then proceed to try to debunk evolution.

Just a friendly reminder:
Reaffirming Our Desire For Productive Political Debate (REVISED)

If in doubt, read this link before posting disparaging political comments.

Originally posted by Kaytagg

Part of being educated in knowing what a scientific theory is.

Part of being educated is knowing that if you keep telling everyone that you love them, love has little meaning to you.
Same thing as printing money out of thin air, too much printing = devaluing the dollar.

Originally posted by Kaytagg
Part of being educated is knowing the earth is older than 5000 years.

Part of being educated is knowing history such as the great depression.
But what to do with data, how to make sense out of it?
Well how about not repeating it, like Obama is doing with his overspending(stimulus) packages?

Originally posted by Kaytagg
Part of being educated is not believing that Noa's Ark is a TRUE story.

Part of being educated is understanding that Obama's administration has better marketers than marketers of the Bible.

Originally posted by Kaytagg
Part of being educated is having adequate math skills.

Part of being educated is using those math skills.
What's the deficit now again?
How much did Obama increase military spending by? 11%, even though he campaigned for less war?

Originally posted by Kaytagg
Part of being educated is having critical thinking skills

I agree, see above

Originally posted by Kaytagg
I see NONE of this coming from the republican party.

I see none of this coming from the Democrats

Originally posted by Kaytagg
We're never going to have intelligent children until the religious right loosens its death grip on the political system of this country.

we'll never have intelligent children if they continue down our path and limit their thinking to left or right.

Originally posted by crimvelvet
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

In view of that fact that the last 20 years saw stagnant wages for working people, as well as a widening income gap, I fail to find an iota of common sense in this statement of yours.

Why do you think the wages went down? The money for increased taxes, OSHA compliance, EPA compliance and compliance with the rest of the government alphabet soup had to come from some where and it wasn't from the stockholders pockets. A corporation makes money or it is out of business and everyone is out of work. Costs get passed on to the consumer or taken out of the employees salaries, if you do not do that you go out of business it is that simple.

I'm frankly too lazy/don't have time right now to look it up on the Web, about the gap between the productivity and the wages -- productivity substantially grew, the wages didn't. Your explanation that this was because of the ominous Occupational Safety system and Environment Protection doesn't hold water, especially in the dace of the fact that the rich grew richer in the past few decades. I'm not against that per se, but don't give me hogwash about how liberal, socialist or communist America has become.

Why is it liberals want the government to have all kinds of programs but when it comes time to pay for all these wonderful programs they think the money is going to come out of corporate pockets?

Because other pockets don't have enough pennies left to pay for the programs that are squarely in the Nation's interest.

Look, while I'm not liberal in true sense of this word (for one, I'm for immediate deportation of every single illegal immigrant), I think that there are certain things that need to be done, and winning healthcare back from the special interest by whatever means is one of them. Nobody bothered to answer my question how come the UK spends 40% less money on health and they are at least just as healthy (and I would say moreso since you don't see many obese people when you travel across the pond).

reply to post by ModernAcademia


The great depression was not rooted in spending too much. The exact opposite happened, as the fed notoriously constricted the money supply. Part of preventing that from happening a second time is by -- you guessed it -- printing more money. But don't worry, inflation is down (it's actually negative) -- contrary to popular mythology.

reply to post by Kaytagg

Part of being educated in knowing what a scientific theory is.

I have a BS degree in Chemistry, I think I might just possibly know what a scientific theory is.

Part of being educated is knowing the earth is older than 5000 years.

My hobby is geology, I think after all the courses in geology I have taken, I might agree that the earth is older than 5000 years, especially since both of my husbands (present and ex) are physicists who have studied the theories of the origin of the universe.

Part of being educated is not believing that Noa's Ark is a TRUE story.

Considering I believe the "theory of evolution" is a proven fact, and I have a very large fossil collection, perhaps I might agree Noah's Ark is a myth Of course being an atheist helps.

Part of being educated is having adequate math skills.

Do you mean all those courses I took in Calculus for chemistry and Statistics for my certification as a Quality Engineer?

Part of being educated is having critical thinking skills, and the ability to at least recognize a non sequitur.

Oh could you possibly mean an invalid argument in which the conclusion cannot be logically deduced from the premises, like the liberals are always using.

What gets me is We already have SOCIALIZED HEALTHCARE its called insurance. You pay out the ass even though You are healthy. The fat slob next door that chain smokes and eats KFC all day pays the same amount as You even though You run 6 miles a day. You live a long life and continue paying Your high cost premiums while fatty lives a miserable life and needs constant medical care because of his poor choices in life. This right here is socialism and guess what when it becomes to expensive care will be denied its just a matter of time.... So take Your aspirin and go home.

Originally posted by Retseh
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

I have a friend who was forced to talk to an HMO nurse on the phone while her child was having a seizure - failure to get approval for the ER visit would have saddled her with the full bill even if her child subsequently died.

This is the system you cling to?

Well put.

I remember I was in a (thankfully minor) car accident and when I went to ER they really took time with the paperwork before even looking at me. I had had prior injuries and was nervous. Just unbelievable.

Lets keep in mind that one of this adminitrations core thinkers, Science Czar John Holdren, wrote 'Ecoscience', the Eugenecists' handbook, that calls for mass sterilization, forced abortions, population reduction with an all powerful world government to back it up...are these really the people Americans want to give full control over their health?

reply to post by Kaytagg

Well we can agree on one thing, the top 1% of earners should not be taxed -- at all.

Correct.
Get rid of all the taxes and have just a sales tax. (does not include food) Divide it between local, federal and state. If the stuff purchased is imported from a country that uses slave labor then the corporations still get taxed at the same rate they would be taxed if the stuff was made in the USA. It sort of evens out the playing field. It also lets everyone know exactly how much tax the government is getting.

If you save and invest you are rewarded for putting the money back to work in the economy. If all you do is spend you are taxed.

Yes I believe we should be taxed but we need better oversight on where the money goes and Congress should not be drafting legislation for new spending until the economy can support it.


I think it is a 50/50 chance this country will bankrupt and Obama is not giving me the warm fuzzies. Actually if the USA was not so critical to the rest of the nations it would have been bankrupted before this. All that has to happen is the other countries demand to be paid in gold for the dollars they hold.

Behind the Federal Reserve notes is the credit of the U.S. Government. I f you happen to have a $5, $10, or $20 Federal Reserve note, you will notice across the top of the bill a printed statement of the fact that the US government promises to pay not the Federal Reserve promises to pay. Nevertheless most Americans to do not understand what the US Government promises to pay: American citizens holding these notes cannot demand anything for them except (a) they can be exchanged for other Federal Reserve notes or (b) that they be accepted in payment of taxes and all debts public and private. Certain official or semiofficial foreign banks may exchange any “dollar credits” they may hold-that is, deposits with the commercial banks-for an equal amount of the Treasury's gold. Americans themselves may not exchange them for gold . [pg 19] Source

Unfortunately the liberals either want to see Obama bankrupt the country so it is placed under the control of the UN IMF. Or they do not understand there is no more. money for them to spend. The other nations have shut off the USA credit card. Or they do not understand that the new health care system is going to COST MONEY!!! Nothing a government does, especially when it sets up a brand new regulatory branch, is free.

Originally posted by Kaytagg
reply to post by crimvelvet

 

Part of being educated in knowing what a scientific theory is.

Part of being educated is knowing the earth is older than 5000 years.

Part of being educated is not believing that Noa's Ark is a TRUE story.

Part of being educated is having adequate math skills.

Part of being educated is having critical thinking skills, and the ability to at least recognize a non sequitur.

I see NONE of this coming from the republican party. In fact, they seem to promote the exact opposite. Just ask Sara Palin about death panels, or George Bush about whether the jury is still out on evolution.

You are trying to peg all Republicans in with the extreme-religious conservative right, and that is a false assumption.

Not all Republicans are as dumb as George Bush or Sarah Palin. (Yet somehow they get elected). In fact, there was a time when I considered myself a Republican, until the party was essentially hijacked by the religious conservative right. However I still hold many of those ideas, such as fiscal conservatism. The Republican party gets some things right, just as the Democratic party does. They both get things wrong. Until you can understand that, you will be mired helplessly in the political game.

That being said, healthcare became a right for all people the day we gained the capacity to provide it for all people as a nation. The fact that we continue to stick with this flawed private insurance system, which fails to cover millions of people and refuses coverage for even more who can actually afford the coverage, is basically holding our nation back in the 20th (possibly 19th) century, and stagnating our progress.

Those who are afraid of Socialism simply don't understand it, as Socialism is not only more egalitarian than Capitalism, it is more liberating than Capitalism. Socialism is a true representative of the American Ideal, not this faux "I get mine you get nothing" ideal that some people have tried to turn this country into.

I don't know exactly what it is that people are actually afraid of when they talk about healthcare reform in such a light. Either they buy the right-wing fringe's bull# hook, line and sinker, or they just hate everything about the democratic party and will go against anything Obama tries to do simply because he's a democrat. In either case, it is those who don't want healthcare reform who need to read over the facts, do some research, and look in the mirror and ask themselves "why?".

reply to post by drwizardphd

I don't know exactly what it is that people are actually afraid of when they talk about healthcare reform in such a light.

I and several others just spent several years fighting the USDA and FDA about food. The more I researched it the nastier it looked. Farmers forced off their land, grabbing heritage seed and patenting it and then suing farmers for having the same genetic material in their saved seed, regulations designed to force farmers off their land.... Now the SAME people want to totally control my health care. I am not sure what they actually have up their sleeve but given the history of the take over of the food supply and the intentional starvation and bankrupting of third world farmers, I DO NOT TRUST THEM.

There are enough loop holes and legalize in the bill to make me very suspicious. I have no doubt that health care will end up rationed and the elderly marginalized. We can not afford any other type of system.

Also I worked with the FDA as a Quality Engineer, I have first hand knowledge of the amount of paper work that was generated by the FDA. In my plant alone we had fourteen people doing nothing but updating manuals. Adding more bureacracy never makes the cost go down. Much of the cost of routine health care is the paperwork.

I was a fool once to trust the USDA and the US government, never again. Read this for an example of the US government in action The Henshaw Incident

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Please if you are going to respond to a thread do everyone a favor and read the article before hanging on one word..

But that's exactly what we're meant to do. Hang on that one word and be afraid of it! Just like the title says: "Real Scary". I don't think most people know what is meant by rationing, yet it's one of the battle cries of those against this health care plan.

From your source:

Those defending the House legislation claim rationing is not in any of its versions, and though that is technically true -- no one wants rationing -- the unprecedented power this legislation would grant to virtually unaccountable government agencies is all but certain to lead to rationing.

:shk: Newt Gingrich Op Ed... Sad, really.


[edit on 17-8-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]