Canadian Healthcare System "Imploding"

reply to post by Doc Velocity


I'll take:

d) deny ignorance

I take it you've never experienced NHS healthcare...we're the social healthcare flagship of the world for a reason ya know

[edit on 17-8-2009 by Taikonaut]

Originally posted by jdub297

Originally posted by Dermo

Who's living in a fascist, corporatist country?


Ever hear the phrase "Too big to Fail"? That is fascism right there.

Sorry

I AGREE! Obama's intervention into corporate governance is fascist at its truest.

And that is exactly why people are showing up at U.S. town hall meetings with swastikas on their signs and banners - because many feel that obama and the democrats currently in power are acting like fascists ...

Originally posted by Taikonaut
reply to post by Credge

 

As a guest in our country, I personally would have no problem in you taking a share of my NI contributions for your treatment for an accident, and kudos if your answer is what you'd truely do.

edit to add:

If you were a guest in my home, I'd take you straight away to the nearest NHS hospital to be seen to, as I guess most other Brits would...the notion of leaving a guest in pain and saying 'you're not british therefore you either cough-up the cash or go with nothing' is abhorrent

To me, the NHS is one facet of what defines the 'Great' in Great Britain

[edit on 17-8-2009 by Taikonaut]

And that's exactly what happens to "guests" in the U.S. aka illegal immigrants, where they go to hospital emergency rooms for free care after a sometimes lengthy wait. And somehow they always seem to get taken care of before the people there with medical insurance.

Originally posted by centurion1211
And that's exactly what happens to "guests" in the U.S. aka illegal immigrants, where they go to hospital emergency rooms for free care after a sometimes lengthy wait. And somehow they always seem to get taken care of before the people there with medical insurance.

Its whats called 'Triage'...the most needy get seen first...an injury thats causing a patient to loose blood and risk septaecemia gets seen before a non-vital fracture...

Would you rather be left bleeding/in pain in the gutter along with your pride instead? or treated in a state-of-the-art social healthcare facility regerdless of the contents of your wallet?

I guess you'd be rather be happier in the gutter with your pride intact and you're ankle f'd eh?

Originally posted by Credge

Originally posted by Dermo

Fair enough, if healthcare is not to be "socialized", then don't charge $100k to set and pin a broken leg.. because thats exactly where the US problem has arisen.

That's not entirely correct.

It's the INSURANCE that makes the price expensive. If you go in with cash in hand to the doctor it's not that bad. Much, much cheaper. There are still problems, that is, they still have to run unneeded procedures on you from time to time to lower the chances that you sue, but it's really not bad.

At some point people forgot that you don't need insurance to see a doctor. While some clinics will not see you unless you have it, there are plenty of family doctors, hospitals, and other things that have no problem seeing you if you actually have the cash.

I wanted to interject here with my own experience. I'm not sure what hospitals you're using, but I've never enountered a situation like this. Insurance companies negotiate favorable prices for operations/tests/medicines with providers to increase their profits. This means that Insurance company A has good prices at Hospitals X, Y, and Z, which is why your insurance company can dictate where you go to receive treatment. The insurance company wins because they cut costs, and the providers win because they're guaranteed a larger volume of patients (and thus more money).

Individuals with no health insurance do not have the buying power of an insurance company and cannot guarantee to increase a provider's revenue - in fact, the provider takes a financial risk on payment from an individual with no insurance, therefore that individual will receive the same quality care but at a much greater cost.

For example, my friend had his appendix out last year. The uninsured cost of the operations and tests was over 60,000 dollars. However, he was covered under his insurance plan, so the total cost of the operation was 10,000 dollars - of which he had to pay a miniscule amount. This is because the insurance company was able to negotiate a favorable rate with the area hospital and cut the costs of the operation.

Ever heard of HMOs and PPOs? This is what they do. The HMO/PPO dictates where you go, who can see, and what can be covered. Unless money isn't an object to you, you really don't have a choice in the matter.

American healthcare is broken and ridiculous. Something needs to be done.

This article is pretty conveniently timed, don't you think? We don't hear anything about healthcare in the media, and then at the peak of the debate, suddenly an article surfaces that Canadian healthcare is going to explode? Smells a little funny!

Originally posted by Avenginggecko
Ever heard of HMOs and PPOs? This is what they do. The HMO/PPO dictates where you go, who can see, and what can be covered. Unless money isn't an object to you, you really don't have a choice in the matter.

If i get appendicise here in the UK I go to my GP , get transported to hospital, stay for a few days and have surgery, and then out...all I have to sign is a consent-to-surgery form and thats it...no negotiations with insurers or which hospital I can or cant be treated at, as long as the hospital has a surgeon to do the job, it gets done, wake up the next day, job done and no bills. Its all taken care of via the NI payments made every month via paycheck regardless of how sick/healthy or rich/poor I am and done on the NHS

WTF are you bitching about America? Paying for such a nationalised scheme is painless and no political anaesthetic is required



[edit on 17-8-2009 by Taikonaut]

Originally posted by Avenginggecko

I wanted to interject here with my own experience. I'm not sure what hospitals you're using, but I've never enountered a situation like this.

Every hospital I've ever been in where I chose not to use, or show, my insurance has been like that. From central Texas, to Oklahoma, to Virginia.

reply to post by Credge


Pretty interesting experiences, then. I used to work for insurance and I've also been treated as an uninsured vs. insured citizen, and it hasn't been my experience. I believe hospitals give discounts to people who aren't covered and qualify financially, but typically insurance coverage works like I showed in the above post on HMOs and PPOs.

Originally posted by Taikonaut

WTF are you bitching about America? Paying for such a nationalised scheme is painless and no political anaesthetic is required

We're complaining about multiple things:

1. Our governments complete and utter failure at most things. This is why we don't want them any more than we need them. And, we don't need them for this. The majority of Americans (some 80-85%) are satisfied with the health care they receive.

2. Our governments insistence to tack on as many freedom reducing things on to our bills as possible while wording them so ambiguously that it's impossible to decipher exactly the intention is. This is why we are upset about this, and past bills.

3. Our government and its insistence that it knows what is better for my life than what I do.

4. Our governments insistence to take a problem, force others to solve the problem, take the credit for solving the problem, and leaving those who solved the problem worse off than what they were before.

If they can come up with something that is actually plausible in the United States then I'd be all for it. The problem is, it's not. To say that "it works here" doesn't slide. Any problem you have there can be ramped up here multiple times because of our population, and things can become even more complicated because of the diversity.

Originally posted by soficrow
reply to post by jdub297

 

IMO - the reason is because we have allowed Big Pharma to take over the world's medical system, control insurance companies and insurance terms, and effectively, train our doctors.

That's the most important point. Canada and America's system are identical. Main stream medicine's direction, via the main stream media, the universities (where new doctors are trained), research societies, governmental agencies & regulation bodies, the pharmaceutical & food industry, as well as the central banks which own and support each of those "agency wings"; are all guided by privately owned corporations that have grown to the size of multi-national conglomerates. There is nothing remotely left here that is in our interest. Yet, we believe "health care" and "hospital care" is more top notch than ever and increasing in it's ability to "help us".

The fact is that our doctors and medical researchers are made to look for a needle in a haystack without being told they've been in the completely wrong "haystack".

This video shows how far off base and off track we really are...





And we are arguing over wanting to be able to afford and actually have access to this tripe?!?

Margaret Thatcher realised one very important thing whilst she was in power, that being if she dismantled the NHS then the poll tax riots would look like a shoving match in a playground. If anyone ever attempts to dismantle the NHS then everyone in this country will protest and i'm willing to bet violently. Many of the police would probably join the protestors!

That is how brilliant the NHS is. You Americans have no clue what you are missing. You're stuck with a "reds under the bed" mentality. Anything even mildly socialist is banned even though you have socialised schools, police, fire service, libraries etc etc! Socialism is a very bad system, but a balance of democracy/republic government with a dash of socialist policies to promote education and health in the population is a brilliant system.

Rant over but it needed to be done.

Originally posted by Taikonaut

Originally posted by centurion1211
And that's exactly what happens to "guests" in the U.S. aka illegal immigrants, where they go to hospital emergency rooms for free care after a sometimes lengthy wait. And somehow they always seem to get taken care of before the people there with medical insurance.

Its whats called 'Triage'...the most needy get seen first...an injury thats causing a patient to loose blood and risk septaecemia gets seen before a non-vital fracture...

Would you rather be left bleeding/in pain in the gutter along with your pride instead? or treated in a state-of-the-art social healthcare facility regerdless of the contents of your wallet?

I guess you'd be rather be happier in the gutter with your pride intact and you're ankle f'd eh?

I'd suggest you hold comments such as this until you've actually experienced the situation, which I have. I had something going on with my back on a Sunday that was painful enough to send my blood pressure up to 200, but had to sit and wait while about 20 people (appeared to be illegals because they spoke only spanish) with cuts and scrapes got seen first at the ER.

I've never seen a "state of the art" government facility that deals with the public - ever. And I work for a state government agency, so I don't expect any government medical facility to be "state of the art" either.




[edit on 8/17/2009 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211
I had something going on with my back on a Sunday that was painful enough to send my blood pressure up to 200, but had to sit and wait while about 20 people (appeared to be illegals because they spoke only spanish) with cuts and scrapes got seen first at the ER.

Going into A&E as a walk-in patient with a 'non-specific back pain' in my estimation is less immediate than an immediate cut/scrape injury in a patient as there could also be attendant blunt-force or concusssive trauma associated with the visible injury perhaps as a result of a car-roll or other serious incident, and unless you are privy to their EMT report will have no idea.

The fact that you focus on the ethnic status of those who you percieve to get treatment before you, regardless of your perceived pain over other's condition to feel your blood pressure rise (no doubt as a result of psychosomatic stress induced anxiety) at the percieved treatment of others who you see as less injured as yourself is merely a projection of your own ignorant racism, and not of the hospital's A&E triage system

Diagnosis: Ignorance, Prescription: Deny

Originally posted by Taikonaut

Originally posted by centurion1211
I had something going on with my back on a Sunday that was painful enough to send my blood pressure up to 200, but had to sit and wait while about 20 people (appeared to be illegals because they spoke only spanish) with cuts and scrapes got seen first at the ER.

Going into A&E as a walk-in patient with a 'non-specific back pain' in my estimation is less immediate than an immediate cut/scrape injury in a patient as there could also be attendant blunt-force or concusssive trauma associated with the visible injury perhaps as a result of a car-roll or other serious incident, and unless you are privy to their EMT report will have no idea.

The fact that you focus on the ethnic status of those who you percieve to get treatment before you, regardless of your perceived pain over other's condition to feel your blood pressure rise (no doubt as a result of psychosomatic stress induced anxiety) at the percieved treatment of others who you see as less injured as yourself is merely a projection of your own ignorant racism, and not of the hospital's A&E triage system

Diagnosis: Ignorance, Prescription: Deny

I was there, you weren't. Factor that in ...

Please tell me how you could be there in that situation in enough pain that you can't really stand or sit while you wait for what seem like minor injuries to be treated, and think this is OK. No one will believe you if you even try.

Ask any medical person, BP of 200 is more serious than a cut or scrape. since a stroke (serious, or fatal) can be the result.

Diagnosis: fool, Prescription: none since per comedian Bill Engvall, you can't fix stupid.

Next ...

[edit on 8/17/2009 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211
Ask any medical person, BP of 200 is more serious than a cut or scrape. since a stroke (serious, or fatal) can be the result.

For the average obese american it is...

I guess bleeding lard is more serious than bleeding blood eh

[edit on 17-8-2009 by Taikonaut]

reply to post by Taikonaut


All you have left are insults?

I always take that to mean a win for me in any debate.

Back on topic ...

It is simply very telling for any high Canadian medical official to say what has just been said - whether you want to agree with what they're saying or not.

Like there isn't a Canuck of the face of the Earth that doesn't think our system needs improvements. This rather fascinating and I know several Americans have a great disdain for our healthcare system, but shall we look at what Dr. Doig actually says.....

Better patient care goal for new CMA head

Doig is willing to look for solutions from private and public sectors to improve patient care, but stressed she'll never waver from one principle: access to care regardless of a patient's ability to pay.

She rejected a recent development in Alberta, where doctors have started opening "members only" clinics with annual fees of $3,000 to $4,000.

"Do we think that that is a model of care for Canadians? No, we don't," said Doig.

Like the original article says, they're looking at European models for ideas, not the US's.

What some people don't know is that Canadian healthcare is protected under NAFTA investment rules. Once we go to a certain level of privitization, that exemption no longer applies. Then the US insurers and HMO's can swoop in and start business. The next step will be to challenge our govt on price controls and subsidies and voila! American healthcare up north, with the high prices.

Think I'm being silly? Centurion Health Corporation doesn't thnk so. They're trying to sue our govt for money they could have made if they were allowed to operate here.

www.international.gc.ca...

The idea of paying my tax dollars to an American company for services that haven't been provided makes me ill.

I like my system and if it needs some tweaking (I already have private insurance) to be more European, that's fine. To head in the other direction is political suicide for any party in the country and since they are all more concerned with power than the people, we won't see that happen in the near future.

Canada - too European for the Americans and too American for the Europeans.

What some of you non Americans are ignorant of is the fact our congresspeople and president have their own insurance that trumps anything available to us "commoners"! They want to institute a new health plan that allows them to keep their superior coverage! If it is good enough for us it should be good enough for them. Add in government interference to how their purposed coverage would function and then ask why we would want it!!

Universal health care is a lofty goal, but most people don't consider cause and effect. What sounds good in theory is not automatically good in practice. Reform yes, but start in practical ways not this grand FUBAR trying to be passed on us. You can't compare the US to Canada because different factors apply to our respective countries health needs.

Originally posted by centurion1211
reply to post by Taikonaut

 

All you have left are insults?

I always take that to mean a win for me in any debate.

Nope, just thought I'd come down your lower common denominator of blaming a racial group for the problem...just thought I'd substitute the obese-american stereotype compared to yours of hispanic immigrants...not nice is it

[edit on 17-8-2009 by Taikonaut]

Originally posted by centurion1211
Please tell me how you could be there in that situation in enough pain that you can't really stand or sit while you wait for what seem like minor injuries to be treated, and think this is OK

'Pain' is entirely subjective...no two people have the same threshold, but unless its enough to put your body into systemic shock, then its not life threatening. However, what appears ,say, as a graze on the head belies a concussive life-threatening brain injury. As you say, others 'seemed' to have a lesser injury, but unless you are privy to the Emergency Services Report at the scene, or are a physician yourself, you do not qualify to make a diagnosis of others' medical priorities...as for your racial observations...they merely verge on the ignorant

Just because those who are deemed in greater medical need by triage-staff than yourself, and happen to be of Hispanic race does not make them 'immigrant queue jumpers'...that is solely down to a racist perception