Hello my friends - you might have forgotten something

Hello my friends - you might have forgotten something

Four years ago, I attacked the very idea of this forum, for it's potential uselessness, and I was corrected as to it's purpose; I thought it's intention was for the purpose of arguing one way or the other, but apparently it is for another purpose:

Please read this thread I made 4 years ago:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The site owner popped in and responded with his interpretation of how HIS forum was meant to be used:

"quote"REPLY TO: The issue of this particular forum is not the proving of one side over the other, but the observed conspiracy to replace the teaching of a widely accepted science with the relatively narrow beliefs of one religion in public schools. Regardless of your beliefs, this conspiracy is a dangerous one. It echoes the mistakes of history throughout the world.

So really all the useless threads about "Some book that has been re-written 40000 times is right, and actual evidence is false!" and vice versa are really useless threads.

I pointed that out somewhat vaguely in my 4 year old post;

I believe strongly that we will never agree; I can provide actual abiogenesis in a lab; but creationists will still claim something, or the desperate ones will say "god made evolution" in which case you really need to re-think why you are on this forum.

I would like to say something about that, as a kind of closing statement (I don't intend to duel anyone in this forum). When I was 7 years old, I was somewhat interested in religion, for the stories, my parents took me to the library, I got a bunch of books and I did this for a few months. I never really talked to anyone about it, I just did it. Fast forward a few more months, we are in school, and our extremely racist and conservative teacher (she picked on me alot because I had a beautiful bronze tan) takes our class to the art museum; where we naturally were funneled into the christian artwork section where our 18 year old tourguide had no idea what the art was about... however I surprised everyone when I started explaining all the symbology between the snakes and the women and all the rest of it. at the end of the tour, the tourguide was very impressed with me, and gave me a post card as a little present, which she bought herself.

When the teacher was alone with me, she was actually nice for a moment, and she said "I didn't know how devout you were" to which I responded "I hate religion, it's pure evil, however the stories are fun to read", to which she responded by taking my post card and ripping it up and throwing it into the garbage. This same teacher made it a habit of breaking my pencils and other things randomly for the rest of the year after that trip. Now, observing my peers who did some of the things I did, or experienced them, they became very religious; I don't know any of my peers (when I was 7-8) that were as strong as me and able to analyze all facts and evidence before jumping to conclusions, those fools are all religious now.

I spent alot of time arguing with that, and other ridiculous teachers about evolution vs creationism, can you imagine a 8-10 year old little hairy persian boy arguing with fat angry 45 year old white women? It was hilarious, and scary, as they excersized their authority often and made things up to send me to the principals office, all that did was strengthen my resolve.

My conclusion is that most people are weak, and only the very very strong can resist being forced into religion at a young age, and that religion should only be offered at the age of 18 when sex, drugs and alcohol are also offered. People offering it to minors should be treated the same as sex offenders, and a new category of criminalization should be introduced, and call it "Religosity" Anyone under the age of 18 and over the age of 14 should be accompanied by a parent at all times when visiting a church, or in the company of some kind of priest or whatever. Anyone breaking this law needs to inform their neighboors and an online watchdog list should be made so people are made aware of their heinous crimes against children.

for those curious, I grew up in ottawa, ontario, the capital of canada.

Deny Ignorance, and religion in public schools.

I don't know if I'd treat them as sex offenders but I do agree with your idea.

In school, the basics of all religion should be taught, then when you graduate, if you want to join one, do so then.

I personally know people so brainwashed by their family's christian ways that they cannot even think for themselves.

Even if they know something is wrong, they don't care, they choose to "believe" if that's what the rest of the church does.

The girl I know was anti-war as most teenage girls are, but after speaking with leaders in the church, she now believes we are "fighting god's war" in Iraq and Afghanistan and supports it. It's now been almost 5 years since her change of heart and she still supports the wars and now talks of Iran.

She is also willing to sacrifice American lives for Israel, something most Christians are also willing to do

It's disgusting really.

I'm a christian, but I don't follow the church or anything. I think religion should be taught in public schools so that way their is not so much bias against it, after all religion is part of society, so might as well teach it in school. I agree with breakingdradles, just teach the basics and have them decide when they are out. But the religion is not bad, its the people who teach it wrong and use it to justify their means, they are not true followers, they are brainwashers.

And religion and science are very closely related, but most people don't see it. Example:

Science states that we came from one cell and christianity states that we came from one God, whether we like it or not we are connected.

There are many more similarities, but I think you get my point.

Originally posted by breakingdradles
I don't know if I'd treat them as sex offenders but I do agree with your idea.


It's disgusting really.

I don't mean "as" sex offender, i mean "like" sex offenders, same way giving alcohol to minors is illegal, giving religion to minors should be illegal too, it isn't something that children can really "handle" very well. But it is intrinsically very different from alcohol and sex, as it is a modus operandi for behaviour and thought; I don't think religion should be suppressed, even though I am not religious. I just believe that it should be recognized for what it is, and not forced on children.

reply to post by Davood


The disgusting part was my christian friend being brainwashed.

Sorry if there was any confusion, I did not find your comment disgusting.

I apologize too as I only meant to quote that first line, i am doing this from my iphone and sometimes i am a little sloppy.

I have no issue with any religious perspective so long as it does not teach that it is the ONLY perspective, and that non-believers are to be looked down on, and even killed.

THAT is the travesty in religion. Or at least most. Some understand that dogma and spirit are a personal thing and can coexist. Too few, I say.

So I could not get behind any efforts to keep ALL religion from children, but there surely should be an effort to bring comparative religion courses to the very young.

reply to post by Davood


I didn't go through that stage as young as you did. Not nearly as such.. But it did happen with me. However, I was first put into a religious private school at a young age, where we went into the church every day, prayed, pledged allegiance and listened to lectures.

Later on in life, (about 1 year ago was the peak) I came to question everything.. not surprisingly I slowly down graded from a christian, to a new ager, then to where I gladly stand as an agnostic (As I figure it is more logical to just admit, I really don't know)

This is great. S&F, and total support.
I've read the re written book.
I see, as a book written to convey a word of love an peace, gets transcribed and altered to exert control, fear and confusion, causing wars and unnecessary deaths.
I have what I need from this thing called religion. My belief's are my own, despite my catholic upbringing.

I've chosen to describe the story briefly to my children. The choice is theirs to delve into it further. One day, I'll post my version here. I hope the OP and many others pay a visit to it.

But my life here is too short to work out the details of how many ways the story of religion has been altered to suit our greed etc. Instead, it can be used as a vague guide, to personal choice and interpretation. This way I can lead a more fulfilling life with the ones who I do see and care for, every day.

Im willing to bet that thos people who were forced into religion might hav apprciAted it better if it was alllowed to them lAter in liFe when they could have chosen on their own

much like the victims of child abuse can't enjoy or express themselves sexually I think religion has the same problem with recruiting people too young

granted I'm non religious, but I made that choice and I don't beleive the choice should ever be made FOR anyone

reply to post by Davood

Religion should only be offered at the age of 18 when sex, drugs and alcohol are also offered. People offering it to minors should be treated the same as sex offenders... Anyone under the age of 18 and over the age of 14 should be accompanied by a parent at all times when visiting a church.

Well said.

Brainwashing children with religious dogma is nothing but child abuse.

Children should be protected from religion. Since god-addicted parents will not do this, the responsibility must devolve upon the state.

As for priests, children should never be allowed in their company under any circumstances.

I disagree, however, with this:

Anyone breaking this law needs to inform their neighboors and an online watchdog list should be made so people are made aware of their heinous crimes against children.

The so-called 'Megan's Law' and other legal manifestations of contemporary hysteria about paedophiles are undemocratic, illiberal and unnecessarily vicious. They also ruin the lives of perfectly decent people. America's unjust sex laws.

Originally posted by Davood
I can provide actual abiogenesis in a lab;

Is anyone here smart enough to tell me what is wrong with this and why it is impossible to demonstrate abiogenesis in a lab?

I don't get why religion should be taught in school.... Go to church, temple, mosque, etc, for religion. I believe creation, abiogenesis and macro-evolution should be taught in school as theories (they cannot be proven, we don't know the truth).

Originally posted by Davood
religion should only be offered at the age of 18 when sex, drugs and alcohol are also offered.
for those curious, I grew up in ottawa, ontario, the capital of canada.

Hmm, you need to check some facts.

In Canada, the legal age of consent for sexual relations is 14.

Underage drinking by 16-17 year olds under parental supervision is permitted in Manitoba. Underage drinking by minors, under parental supervision in a residence or a temporary residence, is permitted in Alberta and New Brunswick.

It is 19 in British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Ontario, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland and Labrador, Yukon, Northwest Territories, Nunavut. Underage drinking under parental supervision is permitted at home in the provinces of New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, British Columbia, Ontario.

Are drugs legal in Canada now for people of any age? I am assuming that by "drugs" you mead illicit narcotics.

Originally posted by Lannock

Originally posted by Davood
I can provide actual abiogenesis in a lab;

Is anyone here smart enough to tell me what is wrong with this and why it is impossible to demonstrate abiogenesis in a lab?

I don't get why religion should be taught in school.... Go to church, temple, mosque, etc, for religion. I believe creation, abiogenesis and macro-evolution should be taught in school as theories (they cannot be proven, we don't know the truth).

you are taking my post out of context, I wasn't providing an argument for anything inwas supposing that if I did this then that would happen. (backpedalinf by religious folk).

The intent of this thread is to tackle the true purpse ofthis forum which is to discuss the problematic teaching of religious dogma in public schools

[edit on 18-8-2009 by Davood]

Originally posted by Davood

Originally posted by Lannock

Originally posted by Davood
I can provide actual abiogenesis in a lab;

Is anyone here smart enough to tell me what is wrong with this and why it is impossible to demonstrate abiogenesis in a lab?

you are taking my post out of context, I wasn't providing an argument for anything inwas supposing that if I did this then that would happen. (backpedalinf by religious folk).

The intent of this thread is to tackle the true purpse ofthis forum which is to discuss the problematic teaching of religious dogma in public schools

[edit on 18-8-2009 by Davood]

I was going to comment on this as well. 1st. No he's not out of context. You very clearly said you can prove abiogenesis. In fact a # of your points are way off course. But, I'm not sure this is worth my time as you appear to only want to talk about one specific point in spite of the fallacies within your comment.

If you posted those points to support your ideology, then surely they must be up for discussion.

On abiogenesis however, its nice that you say one thing and then claim to know what other people would do with that proof. And surely you can accept that based on your comment you are leading people astray who don't know any better and no doubt would go off somewhere else and say something like: no, abiogenesis can be proven in the lab.

But, we all know it can't and therefore requires atheists to have their own 'faith'.

I will add that I find your conclusions very disturbing and I wonder if you are leaving out part of your story.

my grammar isn't always perfect when I am using my phone to type because i don't proof read, i should have said "if i prove this, then that will happen, and proving it would just be pointless"

let's not sidetrack ourselves and talk about a non-issue please !

Originally posted by Davood
my grammar isn't always perfect when I am using my phone to type because i don't proof read, i should have said "if i prove this, then that will happen, and proving it would just be pointless"
let's not sidetrack ourselves and talk about a non-issue please !

A correction is much more appropriate than saying 'out of context'. Thx! Though your conclusion has no merit. (edit: I just noticed you said proving it would be pointless... you don't know what you're saying; no offence)


I still however am not sure what exactly you want to discuss here. You make all kinds of claims, and yet I'm not to address those claims that bring you to your conclusion. Its quite odd. How am I to argue?

1st, I find it anti-freedom / totalitarian in nature. Think about that.

Just because church isn't right for you, doesn't mean its not right for everyone and certainly doesn't mean that all parents are brainwashing their children. You just have a very negative pessimistic take on the whole thing and appear to lack understanding.

When it comes to teaching in school, I don't see any problem teaching it as a philosophy. I took a religion class in college which covered a # of faiths and I don't see any problem with this happening in high school or earlier.

I don't think that it should be taught as would be Sunday school, but as a matter of knowledge about the world.

There really isn't anything wrong with that. There's more of a problem with people being closed minded and not understanding or being tolerant of others and other faiths (ie your post) and this could help that.

At any rate, please consider that posting so many points to support one ideology that is completely out in left field and yet not want to support those points or even allow them to be brought up is hardly condusive to a discussion on this topic and probably explains why there haven't been a lot of responses. Its illogical

[edit on 19-8-2009 by JustG]

Let me just calibrate the discussion : we are talking about when children should and shouldn't be introduced to religion, my beliefs are unimportant any reference to such beliefs were anecdotal and not relevant thanks!

I would hate to get caught up in Religious / anti religious banter from my own sloppyness

I would like to hear the "other sides" argument for "why is it ok" to force religion on children.

reply to post by Davood

Is not science being forced on our youth? Science works from theories and religion works from faith. The same thing really. I am not saying that i am against science because it has its potential. I think that any subject that one wants to know about should be taught. It is when people say," no do not teach that to the masses", that restricts individuals and thus conspiracy theories start.

To me science is still young and needs more time to mature. When it does it will teach the masses much. Religion is much more mature and has already taught the masses much. Just because you cannot explain how something works doesn't mean it doesn't work. I know some of today's people just throw up a lot about how advanced we are today. I disagree. The ancients have left marvelous evidence of their superiority over us. We do not know how they did the things that they did. For example
www.world-mysteries.com...

Now what most if not all archeologists agree on is that they were very religious.

On to a more in depth point i wish to make. Now lets say that the teacher who treated you unfair, and i do agree that it was unfair, was a scientist. Do you think you would have hatred for science?.

In science class you perform experiments and provide your own observations which you then learn to interpret using evidence and logic

in bible "class" it is the opposite, no experiments are performed and you are TOLD a story instead all of which is quite literally forced down your throat