soon we will have to choose

Nothing's changed.


Now you're just paying attention.

Its a shame that it took something like 9/11 to wake up a majority of us Americans. I remember that day very well, I also remember the following months as my life was dirrectly effected by 9/11. The world did indeed change for me that day,and I am just thankful that it wasnt a nuke in NY.

My family is dependant on the airlines that were shut down and people that were laid off, and the loss of jobs hit us hard.

The world did change for my family that day. At first, after the anger, came the worry, stress, fear of an uncertain future. Worrying how my own gov would react to this. I think most Americans that day knew we were going to war.

Afghanistan was a good move on our behalf, I had so much hope that we would do the right thing there. Bomb them with wheat and rice, show them that America is a great country, with good meaninful people who care. At first all seemed to go that way.

Then...we attacked Iraq, I was for that too. I was all for overwhelming force. Swarm Iraq, get Saddam out, get the WMDs and end what Bush Sr should have done 10 years before...and show the Iraqi people that we care.

Then something went wrong. Poor planning, low moral, no plan for after the war, no escape. Going to war on false pretences...granted we had a few reasons to go to Iraq, Saddam had broken many UN agreements in the 10 years following the 1st gulf war.

But poor planning hurt us so bad, now we stand in Iraq with the Brits, and some very small forces from other countries while we are slowly being picked off and bled until there is nothing left.

The world watches our every move, judging us. No one is liking what they see. No one at home is liking how this is going. We are stuck, we cannot withdraw, we cannot stay, we are caught in a trap, and who is gaining from this? Radical groups that want to bring the US and its allies down, thats who. The middle east who we so deperatly depend on for our oil, is turning against us. I am sure that Bin Ladan just loves what we are doing now, it opens up so many possibilities for him. So many more people who will flock to his group, or other grooups who wish the US and its allies harm...and slowly this conflict seems to be widening.
These are dangerous times, the world has changed for the US. It is now a lot more hostle and our guard is up.
I support our troops in the field, always will. I do not however support this president, his poor planning and lack of forsight has cost many many lives on all sides, and it seems to almost have no end in sight. I realize that we cannot pull out of Iraq, the damage is done, and for the Iraqi people, would only be worse if we did. But Bush Jr needs to go, I do not care who takes his place. He is a failure in my eyes, we had the opprotunity to make so much good come out of 9/11, and instead we are causing more harm to ourselves that we may never be able to make up for. Just my nickels worth on this whole situation. Peace.

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
So let's say that the dead dinosaurs are running out. Why isn't anyone pushing anything remotely related to alternate fuel sources? How is War the answer? If the U.S. controls the last of the fossil fuels everything will be ok? It just doesn't make sense.

In Europe, alternate fuel measures are already being put into place. Windfarms and hydroelectricity do acount for a sizeable proportion of energy production. Research has also been given massive funding.

But it's a Catch22 situation. The West cannot go over to other means of fuel without speeding up the process of deterioration in the present Middle East - it has to be sorted out first. If the West immediately started using different fuel sources, the money that the Middle East nations rely on to survive would be cut off and we would only be speeding up the negative effects that would occur without economic change. By buying Middle East oil, the West has actually helped the average joe on the streets to survive - a lot of the oil money has been siphoned off by individual leaders but hwat remains actually puts the bread on the man in the street's table. Stop buying oil and you stop his only means of feeding himself.

The war is not about controlling oil. It's about replacing and influencing regimes where the people in power are the only ones benefitting and putting in place market economies that do not rely on one single unsustainable source. The few people who control the Middle East state's purses get rich themselves but only throw a few handouts to their population from the oil revenues. But it's a short term solution - the guys in charge of the regimes are only living for the now.

It should also be noted that poverty is the greatest breeder of extremism. If you have a region with no income, you are going to have a region where extremism will run unchecked.

You will find that since Iraq has been invaded, there have been literally thousands of small businesses that have sprung up over there. People are actually investing in their own economy for the first time and although oil is still the major factor contributing to income, people are realising that they can provide alternative means of supporting themselves.

www.cpa-iraq.org...

that soon we will have to choose which side we are on or face death at the hands of the now enemy.

You mean the Muslims and Christians. I would go with the Christians. NO offense. Dont take anything the wrong way.

AD5673: "You mean the Muslims and Christians. I would go with the Christians. NO offense. Dont take anything the wrong way. "

Well, based on your avatar and your quote, you're a Christian bible-thumper. No offense. So you're not exactly going to bet against Jesus in a Jesus vs Allah kick-boxing contest, are you?

Muslims outnumber Christians in the world.

Christians are more bloodthirsty and have probably killed more Muslims in history than Muslims killing Christians, so it's a tough call. That Old Testament God sure had a temper.

But considering it's 2004, not 1200, I think you're talking out of Uranus. It'll never happen.

This is not a religious issue, it's a political one. Bin Laden doesn't want Americans dead because they're Christian or because he's jealous of their "freedom".

It's because the Western world has a habit of pushing it's nose into other people's business in order to make a buck and totally screwing over those it deals with. Or supporting dictators as long as it makes them some cash, even if it's at the cost of millions of lives.

And yet it'll ignore things like the Rwandan genocides when there is no $$$ to be made.

THAT'S why. I'd imagine.

Simon, you really don't understand the issues with your narcissistic posts that can be summaried as "I havn't changed therefore no one else has as well".

To think that just because your little world is the same as before is a myopic way of looking at the greater world.

Even your own moslem clerics in England have been advocating your death as a non moslem.

Read a few threads here about current events and then try and say that the world you live in, not your little world, has changed. New laws, new fears, a radicalized growing anti western islamic force, politics of terror. It goes on and on, its not just something you watch on TV between the football, but real life.

Perhaps it's a case of survival of the fittest for the US. I'm not saying that's justification for the war, just speculating that the US gov might see it as a dog-eat-dog world.

That is most likely the case.

What I'd like to know is what would be the cost & implications of establishing an alternative source of energy? Obviously one problem would be the masses of automobiles that would become redundant, that and an upheaval in international trade. Any thoughts?

It would take a world wide sustained effort by all governments, orgainizations and individuals. But if no one that knows for sure what's really going on (since there's 20 counter intelligence stories for one story) then there is no hope of restoring some sort of balance to humanity. I'm just trying to see where all this goes. Ok, the U.S. is in Iraq. What are we going to do with Iraq? Didn't our leaders know that wanton killing of civilians and terrorizing them will turn them against us? We had Iraq sewed up but screwed it up. It wasn't just one thing either it was a cascade of events such as allowing the rioting after Baghdad was "taken". You don't need to read any left/right slant on that story. All you have to do is watch the raw film. It went downhill from there.

I'm rambling...

The world has not changed? Tell me the last time that 3,000 people or more died in one terrorist act, tell me the last time that an extremist islamic group attacked and killed people in Spain and tried to commit other suicide attacks on Spain and other countries.

The extremists have said it, they want to kill all those people that are not Muslim and they want Islam to rule the world, those words come from islamic extremists, not from our govenrment, and not from any of us. We did not point a gun to their heads for them to say these things. Jakomo, shadowhasnosource, and whoever else thinks like them, are blinded to the situation we are in and the events that are happening in the world.

If we leave Iraq and stop root out islamic extremists, they will see this as a war they have won, this in turn will give them more strength and more moderate Muslims will probably join their cause making possible for other attacks like 9/11.

The terrorists are modern day 'barbarians', 'pirates', 'vikings' etc etc... in their time all these groups of people were made to look like the enemy, like bloodthirsty animals (maybe they are but most of the time the reasons were legit)... my point is the world will recover and terrorists in the future will be romanticised and there will be tales of Osama, who dared defy the USA. History repeats itself, never exactly the same, but very similar.

As for making a choice as to which 'side' we're on. I hope to hell i will never have to make that choice, coz my heart and roots lie in both the Western, and Islamic wolrd.

In Europe, alternate fuel measures are already being put into place. Windfarms and hydroelectricity do acount for a sizeable proportion of energy production. Research has also been given massive funding.

We just need the U.S. to join in and throw some debt er..money behind it. First thing I would do is release the tesla documents and form a team of the top 100 scientists. In fact release all the documents concerning technology. Post it on the internet. Make human knowledge open source. Oh, but then we won't have a handful of spoiled billionaires.

But it's a Catch22 situation. The West cannot go over to other means of fuel without speeding up the process of deterioration in the present Middle East - it has to be sorted out first.

Who says? If it's about getting the oil then get the oil. The sorting out (politically) can be done very quickly and easily. The problem is it hasn't.

If the West immediately started using different fuel sources, the money that the Middle East nations rely on to survive would be cut off and we would only be speeding up the negative effects that would occur without economic change.

The U.N. helps Africa why not the Arab States. Make the whole area something like the United Arab States. Let them fight out the details verbally in parliament. Ease off the fossil fuels. Give incentives to buy hybrid cars. Make some 3x hybrid SUVs. Electricity/Gas/Solar. Imbed solar panels on the top of those damn tanks with the right amount of clear unbreakable plastic. Make it red, white and blue if you have to!

Teach the Arab world industry. Let the asians do that though. Teach em how to create an economy. The chinese can do it.

The reality of the situation, that I see, tells me that there's nothing wrong in the Arab world if we would just leave them alone. But let's face it, the U.S. has been systematic in setting up world wide bases. Is that really necessary? And doesn't it fly in the face of sovereignty. All I'm saying is that the oil issue can be solved but it won't without full cooperation.

By buying Middle East oil, the West has actually helped the average joe on the streets to survive - a lot of the oil money has been siphoned off by individual leaders but hwat remains actually puts the bread on the man in the street's table. Stop buying oil and you stop his only means of feeding himself.

What they need then is corporations so the man on the street can become a wage slave. This will give him the opportunity for the higher standard of slavery which the West enjoys. And isn't that what we all want?

The war is not about controlling oil. It's about replacing and influencing regimes where the people in power are the only ones benefitting and putting in place market economies that do not rely on one single unsustainable source. The few people who control the Middle East state's purses get rich themselves but only throw a few handouts to their population from the oil revenues. But it's a short term solution - the guys in charge of the regimes are only living for the now.

And that makes perfect sense. It's game theory at it's finest. Cooperate until the end of the game then turn around and take everything.

But look what the man on the street in the "Arab World" has to look forward to...

what's with all the "security for freedom" crap going on in the U.S.? Screw the constitution; I was born with a mouth and that gives me free speech. I don't need some piece of paper telling me that. Unless there are some sinister plans for America the current attitude towards Homeland Security doesn't make any sense. We freely open up our borders but give FBI leaflets to local police stating that "christians and constitutionalists are terrorists". If the U.K. wants us back so bad why not just pull the trump card and call in our debt? Oh yea, Americans have guns and why was that again?

In other words their results do not match their rhetoric at home so how can I trust them somewhere where I can't independently confirm what's going on?

It should also be noted that poverty is the greatest breeder of extremism. If you have a region with no income, you are going to have a region where extremism will run unchecked.

You mean like India? Or Ethiopia? I don't think it's just poverty although I do admit that is an ingredient. I think the other thing is oppression. Feelings of oppression are what brings humans to a blinding rage not just poverty.

You will find that since Iraq has been invaded, there have been literally thousands of small businesses that have sprung up over there. People are actually investing in their own economy for the first time and although oil is still the major factor contributing to income, people are realising that they can provide alternative means of supporting themselves.

www.cpa-iraq.org...

We'll have to see if the results match the rhetoric. I'm not saying it won't but there is a track record for this (Saddam was our last "government" we set up in Iraq).

Originally posted by Muaddib
The world has not changed? Tell me the last time that 3,000 people or more died in one terrorist act, tell me the last time that an extremist islamic group attacked and killed people in Spain and tried to commit other suicide attacks on Spain and other countries.

The extremists have said it, they want to kill all those people that are not Muslim and they want Islam to rule the world, those words come from islamic extremists, not from our govenrment, and not from any of us. We did not point a gun to their heads for them to say these things. Jakomo, shadowhasnosource, and whoever else thinks like them, are blinded to the situation we are in and the events that are happening in the world.

If we leave Iraq and stop root out islamic extremists, they will see this as a war they have won, this in turn will give them more strength and more moderate Muslims will probably join their cause making possible for other attacks like 9/11.

Fine. Go have your unholy war. By your logic then the world changes daily which in fact it does. But that was not the level we are talking about. This is still the same old tired war torn planet it has been since history recorded. New faces and new names but that's about it.

I'm not in a situation. I can get along in this silly society no matter what happens. Islamics taking over the world, come on.

Are we back to 9/11? The worst atrocity I've seen in my young life. I still feel the pain for those lost. Still wondering though, how 9 of the hijackers managed to escape certain doom and make it back to their homes with all flights being down in the U.S. I guess those were the 9 that went out for some lap dances. Allah couldn't let them get off that easy.

[Edited on 5-13-2004 by ShadowHasNoSource]

"Simon, you really don't understand the issues with your narcissistic posts that can be summaried as "I havn't changed therefore no one else has as well". "

That's not actually Narcissism. The word your looking for is egocentricism but regardless. I'm not being egocentric. As someone quite rightly pointed out higher up this thread, Nothing has changed, you've just noticed. This seems to be a predominant voice coming from allot of people on this board. And currently rather ironically, being used by Bush "We weren't aware"

I find it hard to believe that America was not aware of terrorism. Its possible they were labouring under some mass delusion but I find it unlikely. Still if it is the case that the US didn't realise bad things happen in the world and has suddenly had the point rammed home, then hell, welcome to the real world. Most of the rest of the planet was aware things like this happen. No offence intended to the US but that really does smack of some national form of egocentricism. Glad you woke up. Welcome to the global community. Its pretty hard out here, but you'll learn to cope. We do.

"To think that just because your little world is the same as before is a myopic way of looking at the greater world. "

Sorry dude but again, this smacks of the sort of insular understanding of the planet America is consistently accused of. America is a country. There are hundreds of other countries. Many of which have been attacked by terrorists. Many of which are currently at war. Nothing has changed for us because the US got attacked. This is all just business as usual.

"Even your own moslem clerics in England have been advocating your death as a non moslem. "

Not really. We have one very outspoken Muslim cleric. But we have hundreds who have absolutely no interest in Jihad. There are around a million Muslims living in the UK. If all there clerics were screaming JIHAD! then I suspect Bradford would be wiped off the map.
We have more people in the UK calling for us to attack Muslims than we do calling Muslims to attack us.

"Read a few threads here about current events and then try and say that the world you live in, not your little world, has changed."

read that sentence again.Doesn't make sense does it. Regardless I think I can see your inference. I've read threads here, and other places, and news papers, and books and watched TV and talked to friends. The news now is the same as it was 20 years ago. Story about a war, story about a foiled terrorist plot, story about a scientist who's discovered something, weather report, then a story about someone's lost rabbit that's turned up 3 years after they lost it. Only difference is that instead of the IRA we have al quaeda.

again, don't take the "myopic" view that because the US has finally noticed, the rest of us weren't aware of this big bad planet.

"New laws, new fears, a radicalized growing anti western Islamic force, politics of terror. It goes on and on, its not just something you watch on TV between the football, but real life."

Remember when global warming first became an issue ? or MAD ? or the Cuban missile crisis ? This whole debacle isn't fundamentally something new. The world goes through situations like this.

The names might change. The faces. The threats. But the situation is the same as it ever was. 20 years from now it will be something else, and our kids will be sitting on this board.

Presumably yours will say "holy cow, these giant flying sharks spell the end of the world! Society will never be the same again!"

And mine will be saying

"Nah, my dad was telling me about these Muslims back in 2004..."

I have already chosen my side.
I choose humanity.
I choose the common man/woman who just wants to live in peace and harmony.
The rest can kiss my pixy ring.

Saturday, April 20, 2003

About 100 people make a plea for peace in the buff along the shores of Baker Beach, united in the naked peace movement.

Despite the waning conflict in Iraq, 100 people stripped on a San Francisco beach Saturday in an attempt to gain more exposure for their continuing peace movement.


Easy choice.

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
The sorting out (politically) can be done very quickly and easily. The problem is it hasn't.
Let them fight out the details verbally in parliament. Teach the Arab world industry. Let the asians do that though. Teach em how to create an economy. The chinese can do it.
The reality of the situation, that I see, tells me that there's nothing wrong in the Arab world if we would just leave them alone.

You mean like India? Or Ethiopia? I don't think it's just poverty although I do admit that is an ingredient.

The quotes I've taken from you in the first paragraph, all have one thing in common. They will all take decades to come about and none of it will hapen without outside interference.

Politically, things cannot be sorted out quickly. There are no politics in Arab states. They are one party states. Sure some of them have parliaments and supposed opposition parties but that's all just for show.

You could set up a UN parliament but they can't even agree with people in their own countries. It's highly unlikely that they will agree with each other. You only have to look at the Arab League to see what a state they get themselves into.

Yes, teach them industry. But how long do you think that takes? You're talking decades to be able to get an economy off the ground. If it doesn't happen soon, the oil will run out and there will be no money to create those industries.

If we just left the Arab world alone, as I said - a few royal families and tyrants would get rich and then in 30 or 40 years the whole region would be plunged into massive turmoil. The whole point is that they can't be left alone!!! The guys in charge couldn't run a bath, let alone make any plans for their countries' futures.

And finally, yes Ethiopia and India. Ethiopia was ripped apart by extremism through poverty. Why do you think the famine in the 80s was so bad? It wasn't down to ther weather conditions - the civil war was the contributing factor.
As for India? Well, it's not as poor as it used to be. It's economy is one of the fastest growing in the world, but it has had it's fair share of extremism and it's still happening on a daily basis.


[Edited on 13-5-2004 by Leveller]

Originally posted by Leveller
The quotes I've taken from you in the first paragraph, all have one thing in common. They will all take decades to come about and none of it will hapen without outside interference.

Politically, things cannot be sorted out quickly. There are no politics in Arab states. They are one party states. Sure some of them have parliaments and supposed opposition parties but that's all just for show.

You could set up a UN parliament but they can't even agree with people in their own countries. It's highly unlikely that they will agree with each other. You only have to look at the Arab League to see what a state they get themselves into.

Yes, teach them industry. But how long do you think that takes? You're talking decades to be able to get an economy off the ground. If it doesn't happen soon, the oil will run out and there will be no money to create those industries.

If we just left the Arab world alone, as I said - a few royal families and tyrants would get rich and then in 30 or 40 years the whole region would be plunged into massive turmoil. The whole point is that they can't be left alone!!! The guys in charge couldn't run a bath, let alone make any plans for their countries' futures.

And finally, yes Ethiopia and India. Ethiopia was ripped apart by extremism through poverty. Why do you think the famine in the 80s was so bad? It wasn't down to ther weather conditions - the civil war was the contributing factor.
As for India? Well, it's not as poor as it used to be. It's economy is one of the fastest growing in the world, but it has had it's fair share of extremism and it's still happening on a daily basis.


[Edited on 13-5-2004 by Leveller]

Your points I believe are correct. I did a bit of background on some of the arab states. Most of them have their main industry as petroleum.

Yet, I've not seen enough from the CPA to say if they are handling the situation. From what I've seen so far they are not doing a very good job. First thing that should've happened when Saddam fell was local elections. That would have put everyone in the mood to cooperate. But instead we have the looting, the extremist reaction to the horrible happenings in Faluja (it is extreme to take 400 lives for 4), new flags without any representation, no elections at any level, no electicity or water in many parts for long periods of time (why were these facilities bombed to begin with?) and a list of other non-doings going on.

A few royal families control the West also. Only difference is the West has large corporations that allow for a higher standard of slavery. The U.S. had a civil war also. The U.S. has had riots and terrorist attacks by internal extremists (if one believes the lone-gunman conspiracy theories). The U.S. is only a little over 225 years old. It's been proven that you can domesticate ..er.. civilize people by giving them a vested interest in where they live. If you live in a mud hut you aren't going to be quite as cautious about what you do compared to living in a 30year lease.

What did the 10yr sanctions do to Saddam sitting in his palaces? Nothing. But they did kill a half a million Iraqi children. What did our smart bombs do to Saddam? Nothing. But they did kill and terrorize innocent civilians.

I see very little of the benevolent intentions you allude to. Unless of course killing innocent people and letting the guilty live is somehow part of the strategy.

Does anyone follow this logic? Or do I need to take off my shades?

[Edited on 5-13-2004 by ShadowHasNoSource]

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
First thing that should've happened when Saddam fell was local elections. That would have put everyone in the mood to cooperate.
What did the 10yr sanctions do to Saddam sitting in his palaces? Nothing. But they did kill a half a million Iraqi children.

It was impossible to set up local elections. Who were the electorate going to vote for? There was no opposition as Saddam had them all killed. It takes time for a political faction to formulate policies. Democratic states can't be formed over-night. To tell the truth, I even believe that the US is rushing the elections in Iraq. It's highly doubtful if the Iraqis themselves are able to take part in free and fair elections of any sort - let alone know what or whom they are voting for.

As for the sanctions? They didn't kill half a million Iraqi children. That's a total fallacy. Saddam was allowed as much food and medecine as he wanted. Instead, he embezzled the money that was given to him to pay for these items. Sure, the Oil for Food programme was as corrupt as hell from both sides but the fact is that he chose not to feed or treat his people. Saddam was solely responsible for the death of every Iraqi child - not the sanctions.

I had just returned from a weekend in Key West Florida, proposing marriage to my now wife....
We were extatic to tell everyone about our happiness
and the world around us was ripped apart.

We lived in West Palm beach florida, I worked at a world famous resort as a multi-media conferance coordinator/producer, and on 9-11 me and 400 others lost our jobs THAT DAY! I wasnt in NYC at the towers, but i suffered immediate emotional pain and tangible loss.....
the whole state of Florida had a huge jump in unemployment as travel stopped, and as vacationers and corp business (comprising over 60% of high end white tablecloth dinning in the us) cancled plans en mass.

Hawwaii was hit even harder, they almost went bankrupt as over 75% of things going in/out of there went by plane!!! People lost jobs by the thousands there....

Now all these people, thousands of miles away were instantly affected...with no income, their entire life was now in jeapordy...

then the stocks crashed and the Corporate ripoffs scandals hit the rest of the market and thousnads more lost savings and retirement $$$ they were counting on to live.

It has taken me over 2 years, with many month flat out unemployed to regain a job in my profesional career
I went from working for fortune 500 clients to working a forklift really fast, with no warning.

now while i still have a car, tv, eat my cereal, and try to goof off on my off times....my future plans are in jeapordy or at the least pushed bach 3-5 years....just to recover what time and $$$ was lost. And I was no where near NYC and the towers.

I knew that day this nation would soon be in a war.
I knew then Iraq was at or near the top of the target list.
i knew right then that that was not the onlytarget on the list.
I knew right that moment, the world would not be pleased.

I knew right then whos side i was choosing in this fight.

You are with us or you are against us
what dont you understand...
i understand this can be percieved as a "threat"
GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!
That is the first step in showing those that would work to cripple my nation that we are SERIOUS.

Im now tired of 30 years of fundamental islamists chanting "DEATH TO AMERICA"..certantly the laundry list of terror strikes world wide committed in the name of fundamental islam, also counts as 30 years of threats..since i was about 7 years old, and was aware thru media that these types of people wanted to KILL ME AND YOU BOTH...I knew whos side i was on....AT 7 YRS OLD i figured out this was going eventually come to a head.

As an American, we enjoyed not being directly attacked by terrorists, but many of us were NOT niave....we could see the threats for many years, backed with escalating actions and violence....then 9-11.

Sorry to inconveniance the world but
the line has been drawn, and America is saying DECIDE NOW whos side your on...

Oh you can try to "abstain", but when the "us's" and the "them's" goes to the fighting, excuse us if it spills over into your business

I used to think that i had enough compassion in my heart that when the crap hits the fan here again, that those peacnick....do nothing potentially "bad"... people with their heads in the sands needed help or protection, that i would lend a hand

But then i rember the story of Noha and the ark...
Everyone around Noah knew why he was building this ark, they just chose to not believe him and do business as usual,
untill it was too late!!!!
then the wailing cries were heard outside the ark as those that heeded the warnings floated to safety.

(im not thumping my bible here yet this story seemed to fit with this idea of YOU WILL HAVE TO CHOOSE SIDES)

I still think that i would offer to help other citizens in a crisis, even those that disagreed or didnt want it to be true...

But i would hate to say i told you we were in danger after your family is poisoned by a chem leak brought on by terrorists chopping open a tanker of it in downtown (major city).

Better safe than sorry
be prepared

enjoy your air conditioning, fast food and pablum tv while you can....because if we do nothing or worse pull out now....these will be only luxuries that we dream about in memory...if you live to dream at all.

Dont let the enemy win by giving up
dont let them win by ddoing nothing
they only gain what we give them
they live to see us bicker and devide ourselves
they all have ones goal, destroy the west
we have to pull together, right wrong or otherwise
or they wont have to blow up anything here to win
we will disolve ourselves unlesswe take a long term look and grit our teeth and do the unpleasent things that must be done

at a time and place of our choosing, NOT THEIRS!

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
Fine. Go have your unholy war. This is still the same old tired war torn planet it has been since history recorded. New faces and new names but that's about it.

I'm not in a situation. I can get along in this silly society no matter what happens. Islamics taking over the world, come on.

Are we back to 9/11? The worst atrocity I've seen in my young life. I still feel the pain for those lost. Still wondering though, how 9 of the hijackers managed to escape certain doom and make it back to their homes with all flights being down in the U.S. I guess those were the 9 that went out for some lap dances. Allah couldn't let them get off that easy.

[Edited on 5-13-2004 by ShadowHasNoSource]

Unholy war? Did i or any Americans called for a "Jihad"?
I think you are a bit confused on who started this war and when.

BTW, your rethoric makes me think that you would rather let them attack us again, to you it doesn't seem to matter...

About Islamics taking the world.... First, that's what extremist islamics seem to want, wether they will achieve it or not has yet to be seen, but I believe we will take care of them if we keep true in the fight against terrorism. But the fact is that "they are willing to make more attacks like 9/11 and 3/11 to accomplish (or try to) their goals.

About 9 hijackers being able to escape you better provide reliable links, because i have heard and read so much crap and wild theories that i truly can't remember much about this.

If that soap box was any bigger Unilever would go bankrupt.