"Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Lou Dobbs Enflame Scary Right-Wing Rage"

Originally posted by Animal

Originally posted by jjkenobi

"It is simply another branch of liberalism, statism, that is designed to expand government control over individuals and their liberty and their freedom and their income."

He's exactly right. Find me a liberal who doesn't believe in human-caused Global Warming/Climate Change/whatever they are calling it now. Find me a liberal who is not in favor of the 1000+ page health care bill their politicians haven't read.

show me where you are loosing freedom mate? Go to the bill you obviously have read, extract the language that will jeopardize your freedom and post it here.

I fully believe humans play a ROLL in climate change.

I fully believe we need to reform health care and support HR3200.

Neither of these things makes me anti-freedom or interested in giving all my money to the government. My guess is that once we have a public option the amount I pay in taxes for it and the service itself i will still be saving money over what i pay now.

Ok.

Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the gov option!
• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll BR • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Goverment provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

I made less than 30,ooo last year...
I am unemployeed now.
I am a veit nam era vet

I was in spain when franco died ... and saw a " peaceful" revolution

I am a conservitive capitalist republicain in the portland oregon area

I can talk to any one of 10,ooo lib / dem's and do.

as a rule they are bright well educated people , as a rule smarter than me , and yet ...

as a rule , genaraly...
they work with one set of philosophys
they vote with another philosophys
they live another one
and live this a totaly diffrent one

what is most amazing... they flee any talk of philosophy

they beleive in govermental control over their lives ... but beleive all politians are theives and corrupt

they are highly individualistic , remarkably unique... but beleive in any hill organization .. where every one is treated as if they are cookie cutter people.

talk of free speach... freedom of expression , open mindedness...
but shut me off befor I can talk , berk at what I say with insults , shut their ears to any idea not their own....


and flee like birds at a sudden sound when I build a foundation of concept they can not escape....

to suggest that rush , glenn or hannady are inflamming any one... is not supported by any fact I know of...

I can of course point out.. the same person who wishs to discuss this with me... will shut me off with screams of terror ...

just as they do rush...

I assume lib/dems are smart... well meaning and capable people... ( with out the tinyest sarcasm , honestly )
my person , history and experiance tells me that as a rule.... this is true .

what I also know... they have not befor , not any time soon , nor now have they thought out their politics on a personal level.

and I can and do force this issue , by clearly stating my own well thought out , well understood philosophy... which nearly always causes them to get angry , abusive , and then flee.

they maybe smarter than me... but as a rule I have not seen broken as yet... a collection of bumper stickers , posters and sound bites... does not make a good philosophical foundation

I open my self to correction , or civil discord...

however , I will not exspect it posable .

my point will be made for me when the personal attacks begin...

( frankly , they can't help it... its all they have )

Originally posted by angrysniper

(Animal: )
show me where you are loosing freedom mate? Go to the bill you obviously have read, extract the language that will jeopardize your freedom and post it here.

(angrysniper: )

Ok.

Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the gov option!
• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll BR • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Goverment provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

This is comical. I love the oh so painfully common use of cutting and pasting this document from the web.

Please note, this includes NO TEXT from the bill. It is just a baseless attack on the bill. Try using the BILLS LANGUAGE and not just page numbers to attack it. I went through a post with this in it and got bored tearing apart the claims at about #12.

You want to prove any of these claims then you are going to have to actually sit the text.

What the above text does essentially is very similar if not identical to this:

Cookie Monster: Steals money from education programs to buy buy cookies.
Mr. Rodgers: Touches children inappropriately.
Mr. Bean: Is the most talented actor of all times.
Etc...

THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING.



[edit on 11-8-2009 by Animal]

[edit on 11-8-2009 by Animal]

Originally posted by Animal

Originally posted by angrysniper

(Animal: )
show me where you are loosing freedom mate? Go to the bill you obviously have read, extract the language that will jeopardize your freedom and post it here.

(angrysniper: )

Ok.

[snip]

This is comical. I love the oh so painfully common use of cutting and pasting this document from the web.

Please note, this includes NO TEXT from the bill. It is just a baseless attack on the bill. Try using the BILLS LANGUAGE and not just page numbers to attack it. I went through a post with this in it and got bored tearing apart the claims at about #12.

You want to prove any of these claims then you are going to have to actually sit the text.

What the above text does essentially is very similar if not identical to this:

Cookie Monster: Steals money from education programs to buy buy cookies.
Mr. Rodgers: Touches children inappropriately.
Mr. Bean: Is the most talented actor of all times.
Etc...

THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by Animal]

[edit on 11-8-2009 by Animal]

People can download the bill itself, go to each page referenced and decide for themselves.

Heres a link to the bill itself:

docs.house.gov...
[edit on 11-8-2009 by angrysniper]

[edit on 11-8-2009 by angrysniper]

I don't think Timothy McVeigh listened to Rush or Beck.

I don't think they caused him to resort to mindless violence.

I don't think talk radio at that time caused him to strike at what he considered the "government."

Timothy McVeigh was angry and frustrated. He saw the disaster that occurred at Ruby Ridge and Waco, and mistakenly set out to make things right - in HIS mind.

Timothy McVeigh was not the only one of this mindset.

Folks like this are inflamed not by Lou Dobbs, Rush Limbaugh, or Glenn Beck, but by the policies and actions of our elected Federal leadership.

So when the next Timothy McVeigh finally manifests himself - and he will - who will we blame?

The mad bomber?

Or those who in his mind justified the action?

Depending on what happens, where it happens, and when it happens, there are so many other irritated, inflamed, and outright pissed off people, that they may elect to "not let a crisis go to waste," and strike themselves.

Those in Washington are stunned that these good citizens would oppose them. They are just stunned.

Folks are getting more and more pissed, and the longer the current state of stupidity continues, the greater the risk of some nut going ballistic.

God help us.

They are really stunned that it's mostly Senior Citizens or those close to it that are opposing them. A block of voters they have relied on for 50+ years to push their agenda by promising benefits and making promises they have never kept! They have always written these citizens off as brain dead anyway and easy to mold. I love it when a plan comes together that skews the status quo for the morons in the District of Criminals!

Zindo

Originally posted by dooper
I don't think Timothy McVeigh listened to Rush or Beck.

The mad bomber?

God help us.

Rather disturbing parallels you draw. these are perfect examples of why we as a people should oppose any goading to extreme actions.

of course today's media had nothing to do with these events, but today we should be steadfast in assuring that we do not allow pundits to push people to a place where they feel so enraged and powerless as to have no other course of action than violence.

The difference between Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, is that Beck makes people smarter; and Limbaugh doesn't. Beck's rants are grounded in sound socio-economic theory; and Limbaugh is an intentionally divisive blow-hard.

I would be a lot more sympathetic to the right-wing rebellion if Rush didn't have so much influence -- hell, I'd even support them on issues relating to taxes and the budget.


[edit on 11-8-2009 by theWCH]

Originally posted by Animal


Rather disturbing parallels you draw. these are perfect examples of why we as a people should oppose any goading to extreme actions.

of course today's media had nothing to do with these events, but today we should be steadfast in assuring that we do not allow pundits to push people to a place where they feel so enraged and powerless as to have no other course of action than violence.

Exactly.

I also find it comical that the people who listen to these pundits, who watch their increasingly farcical antics, do not realize that these boys do it all for the money. I assure you they are not sitting up at night worrying about the Health Care Bill. They are not worrying about you and your family. They are worrying about their ratings and their fat pay cheque.

They really should cut the President a royalty cheque, after all, if they couldn't inflame and scare everyone about the President being a bogeyman, where would they be? Did any of you watch Hannity during the Bush years? An hour of Hannity telling us that disagreeing with the President was unpatriotic. Looks like he changed his mind.

As for the idea of nationalized healthcare being a Nazi ideal -- did anyone ask people in the UK, or Canada, or Sweden, or France? They all have nationalized healthcare, and I am fairly certain they would be appalled if you called their administrations Fascistic.

The right wing had its way for eight years. It left the USA in a mess. Obama won the election, and he won it with all the policies he is now trying to implement. That means that people voted for those policies in the majority. No matter how loud, or how violent you are, you have to deal with the fact that the majority voted for the president, and he is just trying to do his job.

Look at the tyranny of party -- at what is called party allegiance, party loyalty -- a snare invented by designing men for selfish purposes -- and which turns voters into chattles, slaves, rabbits, and all the while their masters, and they themselves are shouting rubbish about liberty, independence, freedom of opinion, freedom of speech, honestly unconscious of the fantastic contradiction; and forgetting or ignoring that their fathers and the churches shouted the same blasphemies a generation earlier when they were closing their doors against the hunted slave, beating his handful of humane defenders with Bible texts and billies, and pocketing the insults and licking the shoes of his Southern master. - "The Character of Man," Mark Twain's Autobiography

As anyone can see from the above quote, our current version of national politics has a long and storied history, unless, like some fans of Star Trek, one believes in time travel. The accusations of pundits inciting violence has been used time and time again, especially when one side or the other is getting it's rear end handed to it by the other side. Mark Twain himself was accused of being a rabble rowser in his time as well, because of his penchant for pointing out the foibles of those who held office in his time.

What this country needs is a return to a Constitutional form of government. We need to get away from party politics and back to respecting individual freedoms and limit the Federal Government's powers to those given to it by the Constitution, returning the power that rightly belongs in the hands of the States.

Remember, what you see on Television or hear on the radio has gone through a thorough editing and vetting process. You will only hear what Rush Limbaugh wants you to hear on his show. It's his show, after all. The same with Glenn Beck or Neil Boortz or Sean Hannity. These men have gained a national audience by giving their audiences what they want. They are no different than any other entertainment venue. The fact that people choose to believe what these men tell them is not the fault of the host, but the fault of those who choose to listen to them.

Civil disobedience is, also, a long tradition, used by both sides over the years. The riots in Seattle a few years ago over the WTO meetings wasn't by any means a right wing thing. If something happens where some violence or riots break out over these current affairs, it will be a shame. People will want to blame their political enemies but what they did was nothing more than exercising their constitutional rights. If we were to begin arresting those who speak out about political issues because people may get fired up about what they say, then anyone who speaks out about political issues becomes a possible target for arrest. Then, the vaulted freedom of speech that we all hold so dear will disappear. Sites like this one will be taken down for fear of arrest and incarceration.

Basically, what I'm saying is that we have to put up with the political pundits and hope that our fellows have enough common sense not to take their political protests to a violent extreme. I also hope that those elected representatives will listen to those people who are speaking their minds. Their actions are more likely to cause riots then someone voicing their opinion on a subject as the representatives actions have real consequences.

reply to post by Animal


So it's ok for People with left wing ideologies to be mad and protest,but the it isn't ok for People with right wing ideologies to do the same thing? Hypocritical garbage from left wing leaning People!

reply to post by BigDaveJr


if only it was that simple mate. sadly it is not.