Should Parenting be Licensed? A Very Tricky Question.

reply to post by I think Im normal


So the only type of abuse that exists in your world is physical?

You would not consider the hampering of your child's education, his well being, his emotional state part of abuse?

I'm sorry but if I saw you verbally abusing your child on multiple occasions, I would call the authorities on you, because your kid can't stand up you and get away with, but I can.

Your kid matters more to me than you do, and that doesn't mean I'm gonna watch you constantly to slip up. As others said, people who really abuse their kids are few and far between IMO, but I'd catch you if you were doing it.

I've taken so much flak for raising my kids in the environment they have been raised in, that I will stop at nothing to protect kids from their overbearing and abusive parents.

~Keeper

There are only two real sides to this one that I can see so far, however I'm willing to listen to dissenting opinions and ideas.

Freedom

If you truly believe in the concept of freedom then you basically have to stand against parental licenses because it constricts the right to chose to have children and how to raise them. In this camp you have people that are willing to put up and deal with the rejected spawn of the dregs of society so that they might themselves remain free. Its a hard thing to say you would prefer to allow the criminal and neglectful element to spawn and essentially maintain the status quo however those in this field prefer their liberty to safety and are comfortable with that choice.

Reason and Logic

This camp can see that there are people in this world who should not be reproducing at all because the cannot manage the simple task of parenting (I know its not simple, but it ain't rocket science either). While not everything is genetic children of the bad apples of society quite often end up following in their footsteps, so this group obviously wants to reign in the bad elements by preventing them from reproducing and imparting their negative habits and ways on their children.

-----

I don't even think I can honestly weigh in without going out on a tangent or ranting or just plain flipping out. That being said I do see one up-side that nobody is seeing to this yet; such a program could also encourage breeding among suitable parents via incentives so that countries that are below the replacement birth rate can return to a sustainable level.

Honestly I don't think there is any real right answer to this because the systems are not there yet to stop out of license reproduction and society as a whole may never get behind the forced sterilization which would undoubtedly become necessary in such a world.

reply to post by Helig


I think the question would boil down to thus: "How would we define the bad apples? How do we know when we have gone too far?"

We need less governmental regulation, not more.

Yes, there are bad parents out there. Although absent fathers have gotten the majority of the bad rap, the current system is constructed to alienate them and remove them from the picture, rather than empowering them to be a part of the family unit. Besides, mothers are statistically more likely to abuse their children than the fathers.

However, I believe that bad parents are the exception to the rule, and not the rule itself. Most parents are mediocre parents and some are exceptional parents, but it should not be the government's role to determine who is which, and who should procreate and who should not. Our lack of culture is entirely because of the McStandardization of every level of our society.

After all, if one raised a child the way that mainstream society would like, that level of coddling would create yet another generation of co-dependent children that are unprepared for the world and will not leave the nest even into their 40's. I personally think that our culture would be a better place if parents had a more Laissez-Faire attitude towards their children, and encouraged their search for independence rather than teach co-dependence.

Besides, for all the bad parents out there, there are just as many children that learn from their parent's bad examples. I grew up in a physically and emotionally abusive household. It didn't scar me whatsoever or ruin my life in any way. I grew up, got my first job at 14 (and made 3x what my father with a very high level of Security Clearance did per hour) and moved out at 15. I became not only a responsible adult long before my peers, but learned from my parents' bad example to become a parent not like them, but an exceptional parent that has raised a fiercely independent and strong-willed child who is eager to make her own way in the world.

As far as mandatory education, unless you are home-schooled, it is already mandatory in High School. For the past two or three decades every student must pass some kind of Parenting class in school...although the teenagers of some fundamentalist Christians get excused on religious grounds because these classes often teach Birth Control methods or teach ambiguity of the family unit rather than teaching only the Nuclear Family model.

Still, bad parents have been around since the dawn of time. It is no one's right to judge another lest they have walked a while in their shoes. As such, no one has a right to deny another the unalienable right of procreation, least of all the government.

As such, I have to give a big thumbs down to the idea.

[edit on 9-8-2009 by fraterormus]

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I agree there is other forms of abuse, verbal being one of them.

I would never say to my son, hey your a Fing moron, what are you doing, you mental or something?

I would never do such a thing PERIOD.

That goes back to people being mental themselves who do these things and or maybe were abused themselves as a kid and see it as normal.

BUT GUESS WHAT, what gives you the right to do anything? Why do you feel that it is your right to even remotely think you have a say in that persons family?

You don't, You never will, and there for I think you seek issues like these. Do you get a thrill out of thinking you hold some sort of power over other peoples families? And threaten to call someone on them?

RAISE YOUR KIDS, stay out of my business.

Just because you may here someone say hey, don't do this you idiot, your gonna run off and call the authorities on that person? Where do you draw the line? where does the line start?

reply to post by I think Im normal


Well I am a well educated, forthcoming and intelligent individual. I think I know the difference between simple disciple, which I am all for and abuse.

And no I don't get some sick thrill, this is not a game. It's not something I want to do, but I will do it to protect the interest of the child.

And your right, I have NO right to tell you what to do. But I have a responsibility as a productive memer of society to make sure that you aren't creating another worthless human being that society will have to carry for the next 50+ years.

~Keeper

reply to post by tothetenthpower


You have good intentions, I am also well educated. I understand where your coming from, I however do not feel there should be licensing on the matter.

I know there are people in the world who's morals do not reflect the next persons and would use their moral judgments to seek action against another persons morals that seem offensive to that person when in reality they are doing nothing wrong. This is where the problems in the matter evolve from.

I am not saying I wouldn't say something if I saw a man beat his kid(s), I would look at the situation accordingly. Is this man spanking his child for something they did wrong? or did this man just come in drunk and started opening a can? Yes now I will do something.

But I have a responsibility as a productive memer of society to make sure that you aren't creating another worthless human being that society will have to carry for the next 50+ years.

No, you don't have the responsibility. I didn't give it to you, nor did the next person. You seem to be wanting to take it.



Edited to add the quote. completely over looked that statement.
[edit on 9-8-2009 by I think Im normal]

[edit on 9-8-2009 by I think Im normal]

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by I think Im normal

 

But I have a responsibility as a productive memer of society to make sure that you aren't creating another worthless human being that society will have to carry for the next 50+ years.

~Keeper

Wow that is really presumptuous and condescending. There is an inevitable implication in what you said, and it is that people with less education, or who are abused are invariably going to be worth less.

I think this whole thing is ridiculous. To say that it should be licensed yet also say there shouldn't necessarily be government involvement is contradictory. What are we gonna have, some froced volunteers? is that pc for slaves these days?

I agree with the above poster who stated that unless kids are being physically hurt beyond proof, and i need to see more than a spank on the butt after a child's temper tantrum, IT IS NONE OF YOU BUSINESS............
DEAL WITH IT!!
....I am just ata loss as to the control people desire to have over other people...wow...

reply to post by heyo


No no, in my previous posts I am against the licensing, this whole idea of government involvement is not right.

And no I am not saying that people who aren't educated are worth less, I'm saying that me, myself and I, have the appropriate skills to know the difference between discipline and abuse, thats all.

You can't create a system of licensing for kids, because it takes away your right to procreate, which is your most basic of human rights IMO.

I'm just saying that I would not sit back and watch anybody abuse a child without doing something about it. That's guilty by association.

~Keeper

reply to post by heyo


I have to come to the aid of tothetenthpower here(not that he needs it). I think that the issues are being muddled here.

The main issue is the training, advising, and helping parents to be. This will protect vulnerable children and help parents in difficult times.

The second, valid issue is that of government involvement and a sense of social concience.

I believe that if I see a child in a situation where they are being mistreated, I have a duty as a human being to do something. If this make me nosy, interfering and a so and so in your book, then so be it, but if it helps that child, then I can handle your disdain.

Guess what, parenting may be a lot of work, but its not that complicated.

Republicans do it...

Democrats do it...

...even cavemen did it. No kidding, look it up.

No licence necessary. Let's stop talking about taking peoples rights away as if we'd be doing society a favor.



[edit on 9-8-2009 by abefrohman]

I'm just gonna say - - animals seem to be smarter about producing the next generation then humans are.

At this point - I believe we have enough humans to assure the survival of the species.

Perhaps - it is time to be more intelligent about who/what is being infused to the next generation of humans.

Cold - calculated - scientific - designer babies? Yep!

I can't think of a more disturbing thing than having the government involved in what is basic freedom and that is having a child. I agree that there are terrible parents out there and to the extent that they are, their kids should be removed from them and they should lose any opportunity to get them back. One of the things that is routine in our childcare system is this notion of family reunification. Child abuse and neglect is and should be a one strike deal.

The problems with government involvement are so numerous, that it is difficult to enumerate them here, but suffice it to say that the slope here is so slippery that I think you need to envision the worst elements of the government involved in your home life. Additionally, it is often not the first child that creates a problem with bad parents. It is the third/fourth child that drives folks over the edge. Are you going to need to get approval for each kid? How is the liscense supposed to guage the ability of a family to handle a third young child? A little too Chinese for me

What do you do with the unwanted children? We already have way too many kids up for adoption in the world, let alone the country. How to you ensure that a women who has been told by the government that she is unqualified to keep her child remain healthy throughout our pregnancy and get proper prenatal care? Do you force her? If that is the case, you will need in many cases enprison her. Is that the country you want to live in? Pregnant women either under constant and mandatory government supervision or having forced abortions, millions of children as wards of the state, being endroctronated by the government?

Bad parents are a fact of life. Free educational services and encouragement to attend those classes, which we already have is the only solution. As far as someone telling me how to raise my kids, go ahead and knock on my door. I'll at a minimum tell you to get stabbed.

If you are concerned about the environment that kids are being raised in, do something about it. volunteer at an organization that focuses on kids. Support your local Y, coach a team, become big brother or big sister, join one of numerous organizations out there that are always looking for good adults to act as mentors, lend a hand to a family/single parent who you think might be going through a tough time. Organize group that does any of the above. The point is that you/we need to do things to improve the quality of the lives of the children in our society. Not the government. The best thing that the government can do to help familys is to cut our taxes and remove the ball and chain of government from parents.

reply to post by kiwifoot


Most parents in the UK get something called Child Benefit Allowance, which is normally ( gender bias) paid to all mothers with a child, and the benefit is paid for each child.

I would propose that this benefit (in the UK at least) be withheld until the parent has had some sort of training in rearing a child.

I'm also of the firm conviction that new mothers should undergo mandatory drug testing and the baby withheld until the drugs are clear should the results be positive.

Think I'll flame myself to save everyone else the bother

reply to post by kiwifoot


Not meaning to attack, it's just that this issue frightens me. I guess what i'm trying to say is that just because the government has sanctioned a "proper" method of taking care of children, it doesn't mean that it is correct. Therefore, this mode of action would be too risky, and the power that is insinuated with it will be sought by people who enjoy forcing their views on others.
while i did reply to tothetenthpower my comments were directed at no one and everyone. This would be just too much control.

that being said, i was responding a little bit to a post that alluded to the fact that kids who are abused are worthless.

....these are the kinds of rules that are good to know. I'm in my mid twenties so in a few years i'll settle down, and if people are trying to control my kids the way they see fit, I simply wont have them....I couldn't imagine what would happen if some ministry of child indocrination representative came to my house and tried to take them away due toa complaint lodged by someone who's sensibilites were disturbed. AND IT WOULD HAPPEN.

Originally posted by heyo
reply to post by kiwifoot

 

Not meaning to attack, it's just that this issue frightens me. I guess what i'm trying to say is that just because the government has sanctioned a "proper" method of taking care of children, it doesn't mean that it is correct. Therefore, this mode of action would be too risky, and the power that is insinuated with it will be sought by people who enjoy forcing their views on others.
while i did reply to tothetenthpower my comments were directed at no one and everyone. This would be just too much control.

that being said, i was responding a little bit to a post that alluded to the fact that kids who are abused are worthless.

....these are the kinds of rules that are good to know. I'm in my mid twenties so in a few years i'll settle down, and if people are trying to control my kids the way they see fit, I simply wont have them....I couldn't imagine what would happen if some ministry of child indocrination representative came to my house and tried to take them away due toa complaint lodged by someone who's sensibilites were disturbed. AND IT WOULD HAPPEN.

Mate you put forward valid points and that's cool!

You have a strong opinion about this and that is also cool!

I didn't think your posts were attacking in nature, just it was my thread and he was taking some of the flak for my ideas!

I think the issue of rights, government control and social intervention is different for UK based people and US based people.

Our doctors are government doctors, we are basically used to this idea. It's not such a big leap for us.

I don't see it as control. they can't stop you having children, that's in the OP, but they can help first time parents (I see a lesser role for 2nd and 3rd etc children).

The sytem should not stop parents from becoming parents, but stop parents from becoming bad parents.

But you are right, who decides good/bad, who enforces this and where does it stop, I will grant you, very tricky and sensitive, but I did say that in the title!

Originally posted by kiwifoot

The sytem should not stop parents from becoming parents, but stop parents from becoming bad parents.

But you are right, who decides good/bad, who enforces this and where does it stop, I will grant you, very tricky and sensitive, but I did say that in the title!

Perhaps we can start with proving you have education and financial security to afford a child.

We still have cultures who base virility on how many children you can produce.

Nothing tricky here...

For centuries people have raised children without the need for a licence, or an overweight social worker to tell them how to do it.

Time has PROVEN that child bearing and rearing comes natural for most people and animals. Most can do it without an overwhelming desire to beat or eat their offspring.

If you feel you just can't be happy unless you have the government directly involved with raising society's children, then by all means feel free to sign up for a few home visits for yourself and your family members

The rest of us are not scared and we're not stupid and we can raise our children without the governments interference.

Originally posted by dolphinfan
I can't think of a more disturbing thing than having the government involved in what is basic freedom and that is having a child. I agree that there are terrible parents out there and to the extent that they are, their kids should be removed from them and they should lose any opportunity to get them back. One of the things that is routine in our childcare system is this notion of family reunification. Child abuse and neglect is and should be a one strike deal.

The problems with government involvement are so numerous, that it is difficult to enumerate them here, but suffice it to say that the slope here is so slippery that I think you need to envision the worst elements of the government involved in your home life. Additionally, it is often not the first child that creates a problem with bad parents. It is the third/fourth child that drives folks over the edge. Are you going to need to get approval for each kid? How is the liscense supposed to guage the ability of a family to handle a third young child? A little too Chinese for me

What do you do with the unwanted children? We already have way too many kids up for adoption in the world, let alone the country. How to you ensure that a women who has been told by the government that she is unqualified to keep her child remain healthy throughout our pregnancy and get proper prenatal care? Do you force her? If that is the case, you will need in many cases enprison her. Is that the country you want to live in? Pregnant women either under constant and mandatory government supervision or having forced abortions, millions of children as wards of the state, being endroctronated by the government?

Bad parents are a fact of life. Free educational services and encouragement to attend those classes, which we already have is the only solution. As far as someone telling me how to raise my kids, go ahead and knock on my door. I'll at a minimum tell you to get stabbed.

If you are concerned about the environment that kids are being raised in, do something about it. volunteer at an organization that focuses on kids. Support your local Y, coach a team, become big brother or big sister, join one of numerous organizations out there that are always looking for good adults to act as mentors, lend a hand to a family/single parent who you think might be going through a tough time. Organize group that does any of the above. The point is that you/we need to do things to improve the quality of the lives of the children in our society. Not the government. The best thing that the government can do to help familys is to cut our taxes and remove the ball and chain of government from parents.

Well said!!!

Getting involved in a positive way is our responsibility.

Originally posted by Sundancer
Nothing tricky here...

For centuries people have raised children without the need for a licence, or an overweight social worker to tell them how to do it.

Time has PROVEN that child bearing and rearing comes natural for most people and animals. Most can do it without an overwhelming desire to beat or eat their offspring.

If you feel you just can't be happy unless you have the government directly involved with raising society's children, then by all means feel free to sign up for a few home visits for yourself and your family members

The rest of us are not scared and we're not stupid and we can raise our children without the governments interference.

Hm, very good for you and you kids, but what about the thousands, yes thousands of kids at risk in US and Uk cites right now because of parents who have no clue, nor have they had any guidance.

I'm not talking about control, nor am I talking about governments determining how you raise your kids, but giving support and assistance to new parents, making sure they have the skills, means, equipment and support to bring up healthy, happy kids.

You may be fine, but there are kids dying right now because of this issue, overdramatic maybe, but alas, true.