I Would Side With the Serpent

reply to post by dominicus


Ego...

As it is applied to Christian mythology, a state of no ego would be a return to Eden.
See my above post as to why I do not desire that.

But then again, perhaps that is what our souls desire. But what then? The game becomes stagnant in my view.

We would simply create another game to play.

And back at square one.

Eternity sucks whether you spend it making love or burning in hell.

I think this is why we created this game in the first place. But now we are off topic completely.

This is why I didn't answer.

Good question but it's all relevant to good and bad ying and yang and that's how the law of the universe is unfortunately.

Originally posted by tungus

freewill - 1 : proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent 2 : having power of free choice

whether a person realizes the plane is going down doesnt at all change the fact that they have the ability to decided whether to get on or not, so i fail to see what your on about

I don't know how many people you know that would go on a plane which they know is going down willingly. Those kind of people were fully aware of the consequences of their decision. In fact they had foreknowledge, just like that god you are talking about.
I am talking about the ones that got on the plane expecting to get to their destination in one piece. They didn't have the power of free choice. They didn't have the foreknowledge of the other group. I doubt that any of them would have gotten on that particular plane. If you can't see that, I can't help you.

no, you cant help me because you dont even realize you are talking about 2 separate things.

foreknowledge affects WHICH decisions you make, not you ability to make them (free will).

just because ignorance is NOT bliss doesnt mean that you are predestined.

if man decides he doesnt need god, does god still have the obligation to sustain that man alive?

And some loving god, too, I might add. Would you starve your kids if they didn't love you back? I hope not. But hey, it's okay for god to do it.

What about your pets? Would you starve a kitten or a puppy if they didn't love you back? I know people that feed stray cats that hiss at them as they are bringing their food. Those people have higher morals than that god you speak of.

so what your saying is that god should not have standards? that no matter what you do or how bad you get, he'll just follow you around like one big cosmic cash machine?

what about your child? do you still leave him an inheritance if he curses you and wants nothing to do with you? do you follow him around throwing money at him even though he hates you?

get real.

you apply different morals to god only because if gives you justification to curse him.

man wanted independence and god gave it to him. now man has the nerve to curse god for giving him the very thing he wanted? warped logic if you ask me.

reply to post by miriam0566

foreknowledge affects WHICH decisions you make, not you ability to make them (free will).

Sorry to be so contrary but that doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by JayinAR
Eternity sucks whether you spend it making love or burning in hell.

Welcome to the realization of an infinite reality. There is no end and there is no start. One may ask oneself what is there to do is such reality... the answer should be simple.... something to a theme of an act of being powerless (i.e. reflect on your earlier statement about ego).

If one wants to side with the Serpent, then one must also realize there is another choice to make as revealed in their own perception of the Serpent.

Think positive.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by dzonatas]

reply to post by dzonatas



Yeah, yeah, yeah and all that.
I understand and actually subscribe to exactly that. But that wasn't the point.

The reason I went there as because I was asked to.
Good post though, brother


But damnit, you are ruining the logic train here by solving it!

This is something I hoped the believers here would do for themselves!

Alas.

Originally posted by miriam0566
so what your saying is that god should not have standards? that no matter what you do or how bad you get, he'll just follow you around like one big cosmic cash machine?

what about your child? do you still leave him an inheritance if he curses you and wants nothing to do with you? do you follow him around throwing money at him even though he hates you?

get real.

you apply different morals to god only because if gives you justification to curse him.

Depriving your children of inheritance for being punks is one thing, sending them to eternal torture for not loving you is another. Yet this is exactly what this god is doing if you believe the bible. The standards of this god are appalling and I won't have anything to do with such person.

Please watch this video, may this will help you realize what kind of god it is you are defending.



[edit on 10-8-2009 by tungus]

Originally posted by JayinAR
God forbode man of eating from the tree of knowledge. I'm curious if the believers out there have considered that. Where would man be without knowledge?

Hi JayinAR,

You have made many points that can be addressed, in your OP, and many more have been raised in the posts to follow. It is always tempting for a believer, as myself, to bog things down in details, by trying to answer every objection with every post. I pray that I don't fall for such a temptation, as much of our logic is "multi-threaded", with many points depending on others, and each having there own refutation/corroboration.

The point I have quoted cuts to the heart of the creation story, and the Edenic fall. It is not a question of intrinsic moral value of "knowledge", per se, but whether every source of knowledge is valid. Most academics would concur that Wikipedia (or even any other encyclopedia, for that matter), is far from an ideal source of reliable information. If one was to learn of a topic, it would be best to go to the most knowledgeable expert in the field, and pick their brain, read their research, etc. That one would have the wisdom to introduce the required information, piece by piece, as each piece of prerequisite learning is understood, knowing that the greater the more dangerous the subject matter, the more irresponsible it would be to teach advanced content before the basic.

In the account of the Garden of Eden, we have an expert in the field of morality (God), and an alternative source of knowledge was offered, in the interest of transparency, and it was ill advised to refer to that source, with dire consequences attached. This was understandable, because to introduce the knowledge of the "darker-side" of morality, before one has an adequate grasp of the "lighter-side", in order to comprehend what it is that makes the "darker-side"...dark.

So the issue isn't one of whether "knowledge" is "good or bad", but which is the best source of knowledge. This is the beginning of a logic established, which is the foundation of the problem of idolatry, which is God's primary concern.

Now regarding "heaven/hell" and "the serpent", refer to my initial paragraph. Ie, I'll leave that for another time.

"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."
Luke 16:13

Originally posted by CJaKfOrEsT
So the issue isn't one of whether "knowledge" is "good or bad", but which is the best source of knowledge. This is the beginning of a logic established, which is the foundation of the problem of idolatry, which is God's primary concern.

"Sin is the outcome of a relationship set up between man and the devil whereby the man becomes 'boss' over himself, his own God." - Oswald Chambers

Originally posted by JayinAR

foreknowledge affects WHICH decisions you make, not you ability to make them (free will).

Sorry to be so contrary but that doesn't make sense.

the only way that could not make sense, is that you guys dont actually know what free will is.

freewill is the ability to decide. it has nothing to do with what you decide.

computers do not have freewill. they have to be programmed. they never deviate from their programming.

humans dont have that restriction.

you can get up today and decide to fly to china. there may be unpleasant consequences. you may loose your job. you friend might be irritated that you missed lunch with them, whatever the case may be. the point is that you have the freedom to do so.

maybe china refuses to let you enter, does this mean you are unable to try? does the lack of visa suddenly make you unable to attempt to enter the country. ask any illegal immigrant and they will say no.

"free" will doesnt mean you can do whatever you want. it means that you can make any decision you want.

Perhaps if God has not shared His secrets with you that He has reserved for those with a sincere heart, then perhaps you would do better as a Satanist. You already have the mentality of one.

Man has two problems, one of sin nature, the other one is lack of glory.
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Glory is what occurs when faith overcomes adversity. No adversity for faith to overcome, no glory. (even a spiritual retard can figure this out) Without the opposing force of Satan to test the sincerity of man's love, our love would be based upon what God can give to us and not on sincerity which God requires.

People void of wisdom often are offended with issues they can't understand. Rather than to go to God for wisdom, they instead search for their own wisdom based upon a fallen state. That is why we need redeemption, because we can't figure out God with our limited mental capacity.

But if this is too much work for you, I'm sure Satanism would be more of a religion for you.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by whiterider]

reply to post by JayinAR


1. The Serpent said that man would have the knowledge of God, not God.

2. It wasn't the Tree of Knowledge, but of the knowledge of good and evil.

Without the discernment of what is good and what is evil, CHOOSING evil wasn't an option: Man stays innocent.

Read it again, before you post.

A being who has the ability to create not only the things around us but us as well is due respect regardless of what anyone believes they may think they know about him or his creation. Our family sees ourselves as those that need to learn from this Creator. Many try to see and understand God and his Word from their personal perspective which is rather limited from a strictly human being standpoint. Our family has learned to realize that what is, is what is regardless of what anybody thinks and just because some human being says it, doesn't make it so. We also realize that if we don't understand it, it is not for us to invent our own concepts of what we think but look for the answers to what really is. We feel the best place to get those answers is from the one who created it all in the first place. He does share his wisdom.

1 Corinthians
2:10 But to us, God revealed them through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 2:11 For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God, except God’s Spirit. 2:12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that were freely given to us by God. 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. 2:14 Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 2:15 But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one.

Philippians
1:9 This I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and all discernment; 1:10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent; that you may be sincere and without offense to the day of Messiah;

Matthew
7:7 “Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you. 7:8 For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened.

13:23 What was sown on the good ground, this is he who hears the word, and understands it, who most certainly bears fruit, and brings forth, some one hundred times as much, some sixty, and some thirty.”

James
1:5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.

Proverbs
14:6 A scoffer seeks wisdom, and doesn’t find it, but knowledge comes easily to a discerning person.

People would rather side with a serpent that was created by God himself. They claim God is wrong to do what he does but they side with something he created as if that is right or the better thing to do. And where is the freedom in that? No thank you, our family will continue to desire understanding from the Creator, his reasoning, and his freedom. God says in his word that they would rather worship the created things rather than the Creator. He is right, that is why we believe him.

The bible says there is a way that seems right to a man but in the end leads to death. He also says many would come in his name claiming they are he. This is why the name Jesus adds up to 616 J=yod=10, e=niqqud, s=shin=300, u=vav=6, s=shin=300. 666 is the image of the beast, the crucifix. This liar that we have been taught to follow after is not the true Christ but an impostor, a serpent. This is why the Lord says "come out of her my children".

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good.

Please do!

[edit on 11-8-2009 by The Riley Family]

Originally posted by CJaKfOrEsT
In the account of the Garden of Eden, we have an expert in the field of morality (God), and an alternative source of knowledge was offered, in the interest of transparency, and it was ill advised to refer to that source, with dire consequences attached. This was understandable, because to introduce the knowledge of the "darker-side" of morality, before one has an adequate grasp of the "lighter-side", in order to comprehend what it is that makes the "darker-side"...dark.

Replace the "darker-side" with the "heavier-side" and what you say makes more sense.

The lighter-side only requires morality.

The heavier-side requires virtue. A broad search on the Internet shows the lighter-side claims of virtue is about purity, yet that doesn't define it at all. Here is a definition for being virtual, "existing in essence or effect though not in actual fact" (wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn), and that is more based on the root word without the different suffixes. An example, say someone had a past life where he or she was not moral at all and then in the next life the same person was genuinely moral. The heavier-side deals with such exemplified dilemma that the lighter-side isn't able to handle because morality was negated in the example.

Originally posted by miriam0566
computers do not have freewill. they have to be programmed. they never deviate from their programming.

humans dont have that restriction.

Ouch!

If such statements of free will are put in scientific terms, we would find them nicer to read.

Computers are people, too.

The conscience is a well known anomaly in science, and thus science does not define it. =)

Originally posted by whiterider
I'm sure Satanism would be more of a religion for you.

The Church of Satan and Satanism has nothing to do about the being Satan.

Lets see if I can clear this up. Creation was before the fall like looking into a mirror. That is the nature of God in reflection of it self. The exception was the tree of the knowledge of good mixed with evil. A state reflective of the nature of Satan before tempting man. Who had fallen from a high state. Interestingly he wanted to be like God but in rebellion to him. He managed to deceive Adam and Eve to sin against God by their choice not by force. From it a curse was placed on the world and we now live in a mix of good and evil. That is what man chose.

One example is a lion it is noted as a type of Christ the lion from the tribe of Judah. However the lion is as Satan who goes about roaring seeking who he may devour. From this you can see that at one time a lion did not roar or seek to kill people it ate grass had different teeth and digestive system. It also had no negative aggressive looks as all other creatures. We live under a mix system like a Picasso for nature. Unlike Gods good nature. He also gave man his worse fears in what was said and done then. So child birth is painful. Their were also massive losses as the loss of bio luminance from the garden so we need street lights today. Changes in the language of animals like changes at the tower of babel and many cases of silence as they were silence when God called out to them. They took fig leaves and hid behind fig trees. So you see in nature many cases of animals that can blend in to nature to protect themselves. The list is long...Man broke the law and it took Christ to undo what Adam did and some day the earth will be changed back to what it was.... One of hardest things to understand (in the nature of God) is some times the worse thing that could happen is what a person wants. The plagues placed on Egypt were of things that wanted and or worshiped.

Originally posted by dzonatas

The Church of Satan and Satanism has nothing to do about the being Satan.

This is very true for The Church of Satan, and LaVeyan Satanism.
Perhaps the poster you quoted should have been more specific with his Satanic references.

Originally posted by dzonatas
Ouch!

If such statements of free will are put in scientific terms, we would find them nicer to read.

Computers are people, too.

The conscience is a well known anomaly in science, and thus science does not define it. =)

i was just using it as an analogy. i didnt mean to offend computers

----------------------------------

heres a better analogy...

a man stands on the edge of the cliff. looking down he realizes that any jump off that edge would kill him without question.

does knowing the consequence of that action change his freedom to make it?

the answer is no. the man can jump or he can walk away. he can even stand there and pick his nose if he likes. that is free will. free will doesnt change based on the consequences. just because he would die does not mean that he doesnt have the freedom to jump if he so decides to.

would jumping be the smart choice? not at all. but he is free to choose that if he so wishes.

humans like to blame god for what happened in eden. "god knew they would sin" or "god know how this would end". true, but god didnt make men jump.

god didnt make satan. satan was an angel like all the other angels. satan made satan. thats part of free will.

god making creatures with freewill will meant that sinning was always a possibility. which is true, however with freewill, a relationship with god actually means something.

which would you prefer, someone loves you because they HAVE to or because they WANT to? i would take a close friend who loves me deeply over a salesman who needs to be nice to me any day.

as for blaming god, look, its ridiculous. its like you jump off a cliff, and when you realize your about to die, you curse the man who was begging you not to jump in the first place. its so illogical.

adam jumped. god told him that eating the fruit would mean that adam would die. was it a mind numbingly stupid decision on adam's part? yeah, of course it was, but he did it anyway, of his own free will.

did adam get this knowledge? yes, he did. gen 3:[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now,

how does god know good and evil? because he says what is good and evil. god sets that standard. if man decides that he is not going to follow god's standard, well he has to replace it with his own.

verse 22 makes it clear that the fruit was about independence. adam taking the fruit was an action that displayed his defiance to god. adam wanted to do things his way from now on. now he "knew" good and evil because he would determine what was good or evil for himself.

so god let him. are you going to say god was wrong for doing so?

Originally posted by miriam0566
did adam get this knowledge? yes, he did. gen 3:[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now,

how does god know good and evil? because he says what is good and evil. god sets that standard. if man decides that he is not going to follow god's standard, well he has to replace it with his own.

verse 22 makes it clear that the fruit was about independence. adam taking the fruit was an action that displayed his defiance to god. adam wanted to do things his way from now on. now he "knew" good and evil because he would determine what was good or evil for himself.

so god let him. are you going to say god was wrong for doing so?

Do you want the truth or something that is good enough? How about something that is good enough.... like... the Serpent and the Rainbow.

"No rain... no rainbows!"
...no ka oi!



Eng lyrics:

The flowing tears quietly tell me
About the end of something
In the blue sky that I looked up to from between the clouds
Certainly there's no such thing as rain that won't stop

No rain no rainbow, I gently
Wipe the dripping water away from my eyes
Before I know it, the rain's stopped
Silence envelops me
The rainbow arch has appeared
So that I'll say something

The smell of the asphalt after the rain puts me at ease
My worn out heart suddenly begins to dance
I dance in a puddle, below that rainbow
I take a step forward with my sneakers that are soaked through

No rain no rainbow
The sadness will clear up one day
Uh. Ah. The thing that I saw to make me weep all day long
Was the light that dyes my heart in rainbow colors

The flowing tears quietly tell me
About the end of something
In the blue sky that I looked up to from between the clouds
Certainly there's no such thing as rain that won't stop
Inside my wounded heart
A bright rainbow is out
Yes, everything will start from here
It will clear up one day, no rain no rainbow

The day will come when I feel nostalgic
Even about the worries that I have right now
Until then, it's alright to cry
This is the passing point of a long life
It's alright to stop moving sometimes
Until it's washed away by the tears

It might all just be for nothing
I've thought that so many times
I've sacrificed everything
And I've thought about giving up
But instead of living my life making to someone else
As to why I can't do it
If I can't do it, then even though it may be awkward
I should go up against it in my own way

No rain no rainbow
The sadness will clear up one day
The thing that I saw so vaguely in the sky above
Was the light that shines on tomorrow in rainbow colors

The flowing tears quietly tell me
About the end of something
In the blue sky that I looked up to from between the clouds
Certainly there's no such thing as rain that won't stop
Inside my wounded heart
A bright rainbow is out
Yes, everything will start from here
It will clear up one day, no rain no rainbow

Everyone is carrying pain around with them
Certainly right now, we're testing tested
Even on those sleepless nights, stand firm and endure
Endure even in painful situations
Because those days will make you stronger

It pierces through a crack in the clouds so brightly
The light envelops everything

The flowing tears quietly tell me
About the end of something
In the blue sky that I looked up to from between the clouds
Certainly there's no such thing as rain that won't stop
Inside my wounded heart
A bright rainbow is out
Yes, everything will start from here
It will clear up one day, no rain no rainbow

In order to rescue myself from this monochrome world
I'm going to dab in some rainbow colors without making a sound.