I Would Side With the Serpent

reply to post by Selahobed


Hey, welcome to the discussion.
I like the angle you choose to look at it. Not quite where we've been driving, but interesting none the less.

Let me ask you a question before we continue, if I may. How do you view Satan? Is he, in your view, a real person, or just a prophecy of the collective?

Thanks in advance.

reply to post by theonlyrusty


Yes, this is a very good explaination of why I was driven to even seek out the truth in the first place.

You see, once I realized that there were literally BILLIONS of people who fall for this line of failed logic, I had to try and figure out why. It has been an interesting journey and as of now, I'm quite glad I began this thread.

I've learned quite a lot here in this very thread and I am truly thankful for everyone who has commented.

Originally posted by JayinAR
I turned away from the Church many years ago

I Would Side With the Serpent

At the present time most people probably wouldn't consider these statements to be contradictory.

Give me knowledge and freedom

Can you handle the truth?

reply to post by The Riley Family


I went and had a browse of the website, but I'm afraid you've lost me -- what truth are you referring to?

reply to post by DaisyAnne


As they say "to make a long story short" the predictions by God's Chosen One/Christ/Messiah and the prophets point to one character that would deceive the world. This one character is also many and is non other than jesus. In other words the serpent is the head of the church. The contradiciton "I left the church" "I would side with the serpent". We understand how strange this may appear on the surface, even though it really shouldn't, however if a person is really looking for the truth they will discover it to be true. Imagine how hard it was for most of the Jews, let alone gentiles, to believe in the Messiah when he was here in the flesh. If this is confusing to you please ask some questions and we will gladly walk through it with you and you can decide for yourself. Please don't be intimidated by "we". You may have read a little bit about the Riley family on the newhopeforall.info website. Our family is close and husband and wife are united with our beliefs and support each other in our endeavors. So it is never one alone but a collaboration of support in everything we do. It is nice that way and we couldn't imagine it any other way anymore. So again we are more than willing to share the truth with anyone that can or is willing to handle it or not. That truth is jesus is the antichrist and that is why his name adds up to the beasts number 616 and why 666 reveals the crucifix as being the image of the beast. Looking forward to your response.


[edit on 17-12-2009 by The Riley Family]

reply to post by DaisyAnne


We'll try more short

Matthew 24:4 ...“Be careful that no one leads you astray. 24:5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will lead many astray.

Mark 13:5 ...“Be careful that no one leads you astray. 13:6 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and will lead many astray.

Luke 21:8 He said, “Watch out that you don’t get led astray, for many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is at hand.’ Therefore don’t follow them.

What name is used to lead "many" astray?

This is certainly fascinating, but before I give you my thoughts, I'd like you to go through it with me, step by step. So as not to derail the thread, I'll send you my email address in a u2u message on here. I'd be very grateful if you guys would take some time and email me your thoughts.

I agree with your theory, but I want to know if we see it from the same perspective.

Originally posted by JayinAR
I don't buy the Church's spin on the Biblical story.

Which church?
What particular spin?

I have a question to ask of any believer. If God is all powerful why would he knowingly create a being that was going to eventually turn against him, deceive his creation into following him in his treason and eventually punish the people for buying into what was, for all intents and purposes, a 'Godly Mistake'?

It's called 'freedom'.
Parents have children who do the same.
If you produce an independant sentient being anything is possible.

You can't have freedom where anything is possible (even really bad stuff) and not have freedom at the same time.

That is why I turned away from the Church many years ago.

I also turned from the 'organized religion' type church...
...but not from the Lord and His invisible ekklesia (group)...
...you should know the difference.

As a *child* I was able to see through this gaping hole of logic, but the reason I would side with the Serpent is because he actually argued for freedom.

It is an excercise of your freedom to do so...
...but he did not give you freedom...he took it from you.

God forbode man of eating from the tree of knowledge.

It was not the 'tree of knowledge'...
...it was the 'the tree of knowledge of good and evil.' Genesis 2:9

Now that you know 'good and evil'...is it really something you want to hang on to?

I'm curious if the believers out there have considered that. Where would man be without knowledge?

We were made to be indwelt by the Spirit who made us.

There is even a vestigial capacity of this seen in a child's 'invisible friend'...
...but this is usually replaced in adults by other relationships, substances or obsessions.

We were designed to have a dynamic relationship with the creating Spirit...
...someone to chat with 24/7 like best friends...
...we were to be infinite in all directions...
...to explore and create...
...to manage our world and shape its future...
...as independant limitless beings...
...with constant access to the divine mind.

God said that to eat from that tree man would become just like He. Have believers considered that?

No you misquote again...
...it says that 'because' they ate they would become like gods (small 'g') knowing good and evil...
...that is they became like the 'fallen ones' who seduced them.

He made us in his image apparently, but he couldn't handle having a creation that shared intellect. He wanted slaves.

The Hebrew is better translated 'as His image'...
...that is, we were to be soveriegn over the world as God is soveriegn over all there is....
...but we gave up this soveriegnty to the being that seduced and deceived us.

That was the whole point of Jesus, He took back soveriegnty on behalf of humanity...
...that's why He became human...
...because only a human could take back human soveriegnty...
...and all who accept this by faith are co-soveriegns with Him.

Give me knowledge and freedom!

All you have is knowledge of 'good and evil', not knowledge at all...
...and you have no freedom because 'the serpent' is still your soveriegn...
...you remain his dupe and will will die soon enough...
...or you are free to accept Jesus invitation...
...which is to believe His achievement and receive His Spirit.

"...if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20

You are now in the same situation, you are being given the same choice...
...'good and evil' and death or to be indwelt by the Spirit as you were designed to be.

If you accept His invitation, things will change...
...you will find that destructive habits will fall away and you will begin to see people differently...
...and at first it will be pedestrian stuff...mostly finding ways to spread this news around...
...but the divine mind will help you as much as you want...
...but very soon the whole world will be remade and the 'false start' that is the history of humanity will be gone...
...and we will once again be co-soveriegns and make the world into all it can be.



[edit on 18/12/09 by troubleshooter]

Originally posted by troubleshooter

God forbode man of eating from the tree of knowledge.

It was not the 'tree of knowledge'...
...it was the 'the tree of knowledge of good and evil.' Genesis 2:9

Now that you know 'good and evil'...is it really something you want to hang on to?

You're right. Who needs to know good and evil. Let's all go back to being stupid.

What is the smiley for sarcasm?
Anyway, this one always gets me. Who in their right mind would refuse to know? I would take knowledge before ignorance any day, any time.

If I were to make a request from the Serpent, in addition to the Knowledge of good and evil, I would ask for:

Clairvoyance
Precognition
ESP
Comprehension of the above knowledges

These are off the top of my head so to speak. It looks like I would need a new mind altogether!

U-u-u-nfortunately, certain someone kicked the proto-humans out of a certain garden, the biolab as I call it, and now we only have half a brain. I doubt even that, more like a fraction of a third, really there is no way to know.

Originally posted by tungus

Originally posted by troubleshooter

God forbode man of eating from the tree of knowledge.

It was not the 'tree of knowledge'...
...it was the 'the tree of knowledge of good and evil.' Genesis 2:9

Now that you know 'good and evil'...is it really something you want to hang on to?

You're right. Who needs to know good and evil. Let's all go back to being stupid.

You misunderstood me and the words in Genesis...comprehend!

The tree did not give knowledge other than the knowledge of good and evil.

If I were to make a request from the Serpent, in addition to the Knowledge of good and evil, I would ask for:

Clairvoyance
Precognition
ESP
Comprehension of the above knowledges

We have some of these abilities inately...
...but the serpent will probably convince you that you got them from him.

These are off the top of my head so to speak. It looks like I would need a new mind altogether!

A new mind and a new heart is what you receive when you believe the Gospel.

I have experienced this transformation and it is good.

U-u-u-nfortunately, certain someone kicked the proto-humans out of a certain garden, the biolab as I call it, and now we only have half a brain. I doubt even that, more like a fraction of a third, really there is no way to know.

They were put out so that they would not eat of the Tree of Life and live forever...
...until everything could be restored...
...can you imagine a Genghis Khan or a Hilter (or an Al Gore) who never died?

(this icon seemed joyful...which best expresses how I feel)

reply to post by troubleshooter


I appreciate the contribution to the thread, but if you are going to continue to contribute, I would appreciate it if you actually looked at the issues put forth... you used this as an opportunity to preach your truth, and there is nothing wrong with that, but seriously, I know what you're on about. No need to preach.

reply to post by The Riley Family


Those statements aren't contradictory.
The thread was started as a declaration that the bible is bunk. I then took the bible's logic and concluded that if there were a war waging outside right now, I would choose the serpent.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

I appreciate the contribution to the thread, but if you are going to continue to contribute, I would appreciate it if you actually looked at the issues put forth... you used this as an opportunity to preach your truth, and there is nothing wrong with that, but seriously, I know what you're on about. No need to preach.

I have systematically dealt with each point you have made...
...and I am happy to comment on anything else you have to offer.

If you think I have misreprented anything, please tell me where.

reply to post by troubleshooter


No, you actually missed the entire point of the thread and based every other response on that misinterpretation.
All as a justification to preach.

You cannot have freedom in an existence that is predetermined by God.


You have no freedom. And that is the entire point.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

No, you actually missed the entire point of the thread and based every other response on that misinterpretation.
All as a justification to preach.

You cannot have freedom in an existence that is predetermined by God.


You have no freedom. And that is the entire point.

You are a derived being designed to function a certain way...
...to function that way is your freedom.

You are free to put water into the fuel tank of you vehicle...
...and you are also free to experience the consequences of that freedom...
...but you won't then experience the freedom of driving down the coast for the weekend.

We are free to choose and you are also free to experience the consequences.

What you are wanting is a freedom free of consequences.

reply to post by troubleshooter


You assume much in your post.
How do you conclude that I desire freedom without consequences?

I am not an immoral man. At least not normally. And I certainly try to live my life with integrity and honor.
I think you just don't like the fact that I see things differently than you do.

But to reiterate, you don't have any free will. There has never been, nor will there ever be, a decision that you make that God didn't predetermine to take place.
Afterall, everything is a part of the Grand Plan, ya know?

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

You assume much in your post.
How do you conclude that I desire freedom without consequences?

Because what you are calling God's predetermination is just the consequences of a choice...
...it is not something God does to you...
...it is something humanity did to itself.

If you see a pit ahead of a man and warn him of it...
...if he ignores your advice did you predetermine his falling into it?

I am not an immoral man. At least not normally. And I certainly try to live my life with integrity and honor.
I think you just don't like the fact that I see things differently than you do.

I too am a man and I so I know you as well as I know myself.

You might appear outwardly moral and act with integrity and honor...
...but would you want you private thoughts to be exposed on the front page of the newspaper...
...I am born again but remain flesh until the resurrection...
...and I desire no such exposure.

But to reiterate, you don't have any free will. There has never been, nor will there ever be, a decision that you make that God didn't predetermine to take place.
Afterall, everything is a part of the Grand Plan, ya know?

I do not agree with your presupposition that God predetermines everything...
...not even hyper-Calvinists believe such a thing.

He did predetermine a course humanity would take if they chose...
...but the fact that they chose differently proves He didn't predetermine everything.

So you have simply renamed 'consequences' to God's 'predetermination'.



[edit on 18/12/09 by troubleshooter]

reply to post by troubleshooter


1) I actually do wish, very much so, that our inner-most thoughts were available to us all.
Can you imagine a society of telepaths? No lying.

2) I don't care about what Calvinists believe, although you are wrong there. The very nature of the story suggests nothing other than predetermination. You cannot argue that an all knowing god, who has devised a plan, is not aware of everything you will ever do.
He also knows precisely how the plan will unfold. Therefore, you cannot do anything that isn't drawn up in the plan. Causality is a profound principle. Liken it to the butterfly weather effect. Any deviation from the "plan" of God's simply will not happen. Afterall, he created the scenario to begin with. You cannot do anything that he didn't know about BEFORE you did it. And since he knows how it will all play out, you are acting precisely as he intends for you to.



[edit on 18-12-2009 by JayinAR]

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

1) I actually do wish, very much so, that our inner-most thoughts were available to us all.
Can you imagine a society of telepaths? No lying.

I agree that will be awesome...
...and this is precisely how we were designed to function...
...and the indwelling Spirit facilitated that communication.

When those 'proto-humans' ate of that tree it was they who hid themselves from God...
...and it is we who continue to hide.

We are surrounded by atmosphere but most refuse to breath.

2) I don't care about what Calvinists believe, although you are wrong there. The very nature of the story suggests nothing other than predetermination. You cannot argue that an all knowing god, who has devised a plan, is not aware of everything you will ever do.
He also knows precisely how the plan will unfold. Therefore, you cannot do anything that isn't drawn up in the plan. Causality is a profound principle. Liken it to the butterfly weather effect. Any deviation from the "plan" of God's simply will not happen. Afterall, he created the scenario to begin with. You cannot do anything that he didn't know about BEFORE you did it. And since he knows how it will all play out, you are acting precisely as he intends for you to.

Knowing that something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen.

Knowing that the guy will fall in the pit does not mean you pushed him in.



[edit on 18/12/09 by troubleshooter]

reply to post by troubleshooter


Knowing that he would fall into the pit if you didn't do something to persuade him not to wouldn't work if the plan was for him NOT to fall into the pit.