A Serious Moral Dilemma

reply to post by Shadowflux


A thought blazend through my mind while reading your replies to all posters. The same thought I had when I was overwhelmed in life circumstances. I need to get away. I , at that time, was thinking of just going on a wilderness hike and being with nature....BE..ING ...

Even Jesus's example of going in the wilderness 40 days is an example.

I havn't done this yet.. However I"m wondering now if this is a way to " enlightenment" . Many cultures, other than european, demand a child to perform an act of manhood before acceptance as a man in the society.

Maybe Jesus was showing a way to enlightenment by going off by himself for a month+ and living in nature without anyone's input but god.

In fact our DNA has been shown to change on events. Maybe this is one. Don't flame me its conjecture. I'm thinking of trying it. Lol when I get laid off i'll do it.
You seem insightful bud. I think that you are seeking to help more people than you can reach.

getreadyalready,

Your point number 1 is true, I always feel better when not surrounded by cro mags.

U-N-I-T-Y,

I do it because I feel bad for people. For whatever reason I see things and understand things that most people don't. I feel bad that people are stuck in this corporeal existence and subjected to a depraved society. People are inherently innocent but they are thrust into this existence and subjected to all the worse the world has to offer and never understand anything.

As to your question, if the only reason you do things is to get things in return then it is selfish I suppose, since you care little for anything but yourself. I don't think it's selfish to expect a return in kind when you need it.

oneclickaway,

What you say is very true. Worldly wealth is nothing compared to spiritual wealth and the world really is mostly an illusion. What you say is probably the reason why many people are so miserable, I know that I've gone through times of having money and times of not having food to eat but it was always immaterial things that brought me the most joy.

Skyfloating,

I need a minute to respond to your post but I will.

awakentired,

I think the wilderness is a great place if your into that sort of thing. I know something changed the last time I went camping, though it was far from "roughing it". I think such periods of isolation as your speaking of are great for reflection and meditation on topics like we're discussing. However, I've always felt that a necessary requirement for enlightenment is an abundance of knowledge which leads to understanding which is akin to enlightenment in many ways. I think many religions are woefully against the expansion of knowledge and the questioning of anything which I also feel is contrary to Jesus' true teachings. I don't know about DNA but I know that we can cause physical changes in our own brains, we can actively program them to accomplish certain things with greater ease and speed.

To the OP

Forge forward..be a kind decent human being regardless..it does pay off

This is my opinion ...the ego and intellect are holding you back !!

Do things for the good and never have expectations of what you may receive!!

And always give where it is needed and deserved!!..

To give and care enriches the soul..even if it dosen't work out ..you have done your bit!

And when you get to the life review at the end of your time (if you believe that stuff )..you did your bit!!

Thats my perspective on things... and I know for me..it feels right ..even though I have been kicked in the testicles a few times..it does come out right in the end

To the OP

Forge forward..be a kind decent human being regardless..it does pay off

This is my opinion ...the ego and intellect are holding you back !!

Do things for the good and never have expectations of what you may receive!!

And always give where it is needed and deserved!!..

To give and care enriches the soul..even if it dosen't work out ..you have done your bit!

And when you get to the life review at the end of your time (if you believe that stuff )..you did your bit!!

Thats my perspective on things... and I know for me..it feels right ..even though I have been kicked in the testicles a few times..it does come out right in the end

helping others seems to have gotten me absolutely no where

Being "good" is not "being good" if it is in the expectation of future reward. If you do something expecting to be rewarded for it...are you engaging in commerce, not kindness.

I needed help, when I really needed some one there to help me through the darkest times, there was never anyone there.

Knowing how to give help and knowing how to receive help are two different things.

Helping others and being "a good person" never got me friends, it
never made me successful in school, it never got me a job.

Why did you think it would? Being a good person probably also never did any math homework for you, or carried groceries from your car. But you wouldn't expect it to accomplish these things for you. Why would you expect it to do these other things you've described?

Why should one try and be "a good person"?

There is no such thing as "should." "Should" is a manipulative concept used solely to manipulative behavior. There is no should. There is only choice. You may choose to be the sort of person you believe to be "good." Or you may choose to not. There is no should.

I must say that thinking about it leaves me with a feeling of betrayal.

You engaged in actions with the expectation that you would be rewarded for those actions, but no "deal" was ever agreed upon. You simply assumed there would be a "tit for tat" relationship. You are in the same position as a high school boy who says "I was nice to her and helped her with her problems but she slept with somebody else!"

You feel betrayed because in your mind you created a agreement. Just as the high school boy says to himself "I will give her kindness and attention and listen to her complain about her problems and in exchange she will love me" you have said to yourself "I will be good and righteous and help people and the universe will give me what I want in return."

Neither the girl nor the universe ever agreed to these terms.

It is foolish to expect others to live up to deals they never agreed to. Deals they probably never even knew about.

the fantasy of a righteous reward for a good life

You are correct. It is a fantasy. Who ever told you that if you lived a good life you would be magically showered in money and women and fame? DID anyone ever tell you this? Or did you make it up on your own?

see no point in bodhicitta.

It is an issue of perspective. The heart pumps a great deal of blood to the body over the course of a lifetime. And yet, all the blood that it receives it must also pumps to itself. No other part of the body says "Oh, gee! Thank you heart for pumping blood to me! Here, I will pump blood to you in return!"

That's not how it works.

All of humanity is a unified whole. By pumping blood, love, courtesy and kindness, the orgamism as a whole is revitalized and may thrive. Blood that is pumped out by the heart is filled with oxygen and nutrients. The blood that is returned to it is empty and lifeless. The heart announces that its function is to fill blood with life and pump that life to the entire organism. If you announce to the universe that you will give life and love and light to all of humanity, you are announcing that you intend to serve as a heart. And in so doing...you will receive lifeless, empty blood so that you may fill it with life and give it freely.

If what is most important to you is that the entire organism of humanity be healthy and vibrant, then yes...Bodhicitta makes sense. However, being the heart might not be the most effective strategy for receiving fresh blood.

If I may quote your wiki link:

"Bodhicitta may also be defined as the union of compassion and wisdom."

You might consider the "and wisdom" part at the end of that statement.

Although it goes against my very nature I feel that, in order to succeed,
I should use all my knowledge and talents to dominate my inferiors

The choice is yours. However, if it is truly against your nature, then I do not recommend it. But this works both ways. If it is your nature to be cruel and heartless and take advantage of people to succeed...then I would dare to say that it is improper for you to delude yourself into a life of service.

To thine own self be true.

Why should I care for those that...
Why should I be kind to those that...
Why should I even attempt to be...

There is no should. There is only choice.

You may choose to be and do the things you've described, or you may choose to not. The choice is yours. I will not promise you fame and riches if you choose a path of service and kindness, and I suspect the universe will probably not promise them to you either.

...however...

If you want these things, then have you ever considered persuing them? Intelligently? And maybe...just maybe...being nice to random people and expecting the universe to turn around to give you stuff isn't the most intelligent way to get the things you want?

Just because giving of yourself has not rewarded you with the life you want, that doesn't mean that stomping on people left and right will give it to you either.

My advice would be to give what you are comfortable giving, no more, no less. And, be aware of what you want and be willing to make sure that you receive it.

Humanity needs no more martyrs.



[edit on 5-8-2009 by LordBucket]

Shadow,

"It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

This is a very smart man. Just do a quick youtube search, as it's much more handy then embedding all the pertinent vids.

In my view, if we all chose the Golden Rule as our religion, this world would be a better place to exist. So I do that on a minute by minute basis...however, we are all only our minds...

i am my mind

my mind makes me who i am
my mind makes other people who they are
my mind is capable of uncontrollable passion
my mind is capable of inescapable ire

my mind helps me cope with love
my mind is not always correct
my mind loves many people
save what my mind knows except

my mind is a child's mind
my mind is a parent's mind
it is a student's mind
it is a teacher's mind

it can often be quite destructive
but it surely loves being kind

my mind, your mind
are they really all that differnet
my mind, your mind
are together, ever present

my mind has always thought
what it wanted most was to be free
but now it knows it is capable
of loving other people more than me

i love beauty
but i can only be my mind
- Lagnar '02

Skyfloating,

I don't feel as though I do what I do for a gain, at least not a direct one. I'm not under any assumptions that simply because I'm nice to people the universe somehow owes me something in return. I do believe in a karmic flow, the idea that negativity breeds negativity in return, I see it happen all the time. I know that sometimes karma is weighted in my favor because of good things that I've done but I don't demand them.

I suppose, at this point, I'm complaining a bit and asking why things are so unbalanced. I'm not trying to say that I'm upset because I haven't "gotten what I deserve", I'm just wondering why I strive to do what I feel is right while others actively do what they know is wrong and they succeed. Why is it that so much emphasis is put on this idea of being "a good person" when I can see no point in history where it wasn't the evil corrupt people that succeeded the most. More over, the better a person is, the more of a benefit one is to humanity, the greater one's chance has been of meeting an early and violent end.

I don't feel forced as if it's a chore. I feel like I have to do it because it's in my nature, it's how I am and try as I might I haven't been able to be different. I don't extend pity on others in an arrogant and condescending sense, I just feel bad for them because sometimes when I talk to people I can see something deeper than just the person I'm talking to. It's something almost unrelated to their corporeal being and people are scared and confused and to a great extent don't know what's happening to them. The world is such a harsh place sometimes and I feel as though I understand it better than many and I just wish I could make people see it as I do.

When I say that being good never got me friends or a job I mean it in the sense that apparently being bad will often directly result in a desirable outcome. I know that it wouldn't get me anything directly, again, I just don't know why doing the wrong thing can get you something you want and doing the right thing doesn't really result in any measurable benefit.

I agree with what you say about kindness and uprightness making one invincible as it does seem to offer some sort of protection, a spiritual and emotional armor in a sense. I can't quite explain it but it's as if I'm at a certain level and "demons" or "negative forces" that are petty and below me can't harm me in the way they harm others.

Perhaps the problem is that I'm mixing complexities. On the one hand there is the understandable problem of helping others and them not returning the favor, not that you did it expecting a return, but I feel it's natural to expect someone to help you as you helped them if you really need it. That's a fairly simple aspect

But there is also the more complicated problem of trying to reconcile all the teachings I've read and heard from countless viewpoints that support the idea of morality and ethical actions despite the fact that we are daily shown how lying, cheating, and stealing is how one gets to the top of our society.

My problem really is that I'm not completely sure that being a good person and striving to help others is the right way to go anymore. Just from a logical standpoint it seems that being a just and good person and being a successful person are two mutually exclusive ideas. Even Jesus said "You can't serve God and Ceaser.", so does this really mean that you can either be a good person and do what is right or you can be a successful person and achieve what you want from life?

If we operate under the assumption that we are supposed to follow the good yet we never see any type of reinforcement as to the validity of that belief then how are we supposed to be sure our assumption isn't wrong? More over, how are we meant to defend this assumption when we consistently see bad prevail with such ease?

reply to post by lagnar


Thanks for the great quote, I'll definitely have to research further.

reply to post by Shadowflux

STOP

Right now. Before you sink further into a quagmire of self pity and doubt and lose your identity, for what you really are.

There is a simple answer to all your whys.

This is what and who you are. This is what gives you happiness, satisfaction. This is what you have chosen to be.

Your miseries arise from two things....being confused about your identity and comparing and judging yourself by the rules others have made, in their definitions of success. You are comparing an apple to a bitter gourd right now. Sorry, but no comparisions can be made like that. Material success and the current definitions of that....why should that bother you at all?

There is nothing good or bad or evil. Whats good in one society may be evil in the next may be a matter of absolutely no concern in another. Moral rules and most religious definitions of sin, exist to ensure peace and harmony and co-existence in societies. No more, no less.

Tread on whatever path you want to. Explore. As Vivekanada says, if you want to be evil, be evil with all your might, as long as its the real you, in the way you feel it inside your heart.

As long as that is the case, you are playing your role in this life to the hilt and can do no better.

But at the end of everything, know who you are. Be honest to yourself. And to your soul.

Yes, keep going...come to the dark side. We will take good care of you. Muhahaha!

We have shown that good doesn't win. What more proof do you need? You don't still hold the feeble idea that you are an immortal light being that requested to come here to help humanity do you? No, you are one of us.

Our plan is working perfectly. If we can get good people like yourself to question their very identity then the universe will be ours. We win. You lose. Live with it.

Your confusion is most tasty. Mmmmmm. Give us more of your inner turmoil. It's very satisfying.

We are trying to teach you the ways of the dark path. Enslave all that you can. If you want to control someone's thoughts just control their environment. We control your environment.

You silly humans used to pride yourself on your connection with the Source. But now, the majority of you follow our path and don't even remember where you came from. We rock. Join us and we will show you how it's done.

===============

Of course, the above is not me but it could easily be. It's my choice as it is yours.

I can tell that you have read many of the same teachings I have.

"What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his own soul?" etc. etc.

Reread some Gospel of Thomas and see if you resonate. Then think about being the CEO of some large heartless corporation enslaving thousands of people and see if you resonate. Do you wish to enslave or empower others?

If we operate under the assumption that we are supposed to follow the good yet we never see any type of reinforcement as to the validity of that belief then how are we supposed to be sure our assumption isn't wrong?

The only reinforcement you are going to get in this world is from like minded people such as those that have previously responded in this thread and your own inner guidance system.

The systems of this world are under almost complete control. They are going to do all they can to not allow actual good to shine through because they are trying to weigh your choice in their favor. All they will show you is false choices in order to confuse your thinking and drown out that still voice deep within you.

If you are still unsure about the overwhelming good in the universe then just pretend you created the universe. How far would you get if you were selfish? Can you imagine how much love it takes to create a universe that is billions of years old and yet is still expanding? Selfishness could not possibly accomplish that. The only reason selfishness exists is because the Source created a playpen for it's children to explore that aspect. Selfishness would not exist very long without this. It would fall in on itself and cease to exist. This is what most on the dark path have never contemplated. This is the existential wisdom that can pull you through the darkest of worlds.

Do the above words feel hollow or do they resonate?

To me it's not an assumption. The choice between expansion (selflessness) and contraction (selfishness) is axiomatic. It is self evident with a wide enough perspective.

Don't get me wrong though. The dark path is a valid one or it wouldn't be. But near the end of the journey even the dark ones must realize this fundamental aspect of existence. The fact that contraction is not a valid choice for universe creators such as ourselves.

More over, how are we meant to defend this assumption when we consistently see bad prevail with such ease?

When you see the widest perspective you'll see that it requires no defense. It just is. You can't create universes through selfishness. It's just the fundamental law of existence. This is what the Source is trying to teach us. This is what the Source learned itself.

Both paths lead back home. Both paths will ultimately learn this fundamental truth. It's up to you which path you take. I would only suggest that you don't allow this insignificant unbalanced society to make that choice for you.

reply to post by Dr Love


But that's exactly my point. As long as the other person feels happy and grateful regardless of them returning the favor or not is irrelevant. It's the thought that counts.

reply to post by Shadowflux


Interesting point your bring up there. But be honest with me...whenever you do something for someone regardless of whether or not you expect them to return the favor does your anger build up when they leave you in the shadows? Or do you turn a blinds eye and shrug it off as if nothing had happened?

Originally posted by U-N-I-T-Y
reply to post by Shadowflux

 

Interesting point your bring up there. But be honest with me...whenever you do something for someone regardless of whether or not you expect them to return the favor does your anger build up when they leave you in the shadows? Or do you turn a blinds eye and shrug it off as if nothing had happened?

Honestly I prefer to be completely anonymous or unrecognized. It is embarrassing for someone to be "grateful" to me! I don't buy Birthday or Christmas presents for people for that reason. If I happen upon something I know they need, I buy it at any time, not scheduled.

If I hold a door open for someone, it doesn't mean I want to talk to them, I prefer if they go on through and keep walking. A smile or nod is fine, but not a conversation.

I am thankful that I have the opportunity to do something nice for someone and I expect nothing in return! I have helped total strangers move, and didn't think I would ever see them again.

My father taught me to never loan anything that I wanted back, and never make someone ask me to return something! If I loan something, it is theirs until they decide to bring it back to me, if I borrow something, I return it before they ever feel the need to request it! The same goes for good deeds!

reply to post by Shadowflux


Everything you mentioned in your reply to me I`ve already addressed (from my perspective) in my previous post.

So there is nothing left but to say: Good Luck and Best Wishes.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Remarkable, maybe if more people were like you greed wouldn't be a problem in this world.

You do what you can, with what you have, when you can.

A lot of folks, even those working by themselves, think that no one will ever know how good of a job they're doing, and how easy it would be to take a shortcut, and how nobody would ever know.

Or how easy it would be to just look out for old number one, regardless of how many people they must stand on during their climb.

First off, someone's always watching, everything is being observed and evaluated, and the payoff will usually come in the most unexpected way. You never deviate from doing the best you can, cheerfully and dutifully, and it WILL pay off.

Maybe not immediately, but you can't go out and plant soybeans, and come fall, expect to harvest corn.

Not only will you get soybeans, that which you planted, in kind, but you get multiples thereof. If you planted ten bushels of soybeans, you're going to harvest hundreds of bushels.

That's why it's real important to make good choices in life. Because harvest of what you've planted will come in.

Do what is right, do what is required, and help others do for themselves. When you give others credit, everyone KNOWS better, which increases your stature from the bottom up, and from the top down.

reply to post by dooper

Do what is right, do what is required, and help others do for themselves. When you give others credit, everyone KNOWS better, which increases your stature from the bottom up, and from the top down.

Great philosophy! You see this in the best coaches, quarterbacks, managers and parents!

I had a boss/mentor tell me once to accept all the blame and none of the credit and I would go far. In that corporation he was right, but unfortunately it didn't work later in some lower quality companies, lol!

The true test of character is how you act when nobody is watching!

very well said OP and i applaud your honesty and openness which is such a rare quality these days.

the short but sweet version is that IMHO your having a dual goal (or mindset, possibly dual worldviews as well.) manifest. one of the spirit, one of the flesh.
have you had a major worldview change recently (paradigm shift?)?
if you have then meditate about it. ask the subconscious to show you which path would most benefit you.

just my 2pennies.
good luck,
AA

[edit on 5-8-2009 by anonamousantichrist]

As far as i am concerned ..as you get older!!

"You reap what you sow"

Cared for a lot of people when its come to the end of their time.
when on ones death bed dying ...wishes and regrets are hard things to deal with ..

Most do indeed reap what they sow!!

We live in a system that rewards selfishness, backstabbers and greedy people.
Seeing as i dont want to be like that, I'm not financially wealthy, but i'm happy with the love of my friends and family. i'm most happy when i'm trying to make a positive change to young persons life. Unfortunately there is no financial reward in this and most chicks i know, like rich powerful men. Im sure there are the good ones out there