What will it take for you to Stop Believing!? (Deity)

reply to post by moocowman

So how exactly, is it possible for the creator of "everything" to want anything ?

We have free will; we get to choose to either accept or reject God's son, Jesus Christ, as our savior. God can want because He can't force us to place our faith in Christ.

[edit on 2-8-2009 by Totakeke]

just stopped by to answer the title question:

i would stop believing if i personally watched while god snuffed it by cutting off his own head

and probably not even then. everyone starts out believing, then wakes up. then wakes up again. for all i know this process unfolds to infinity

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
I am kind of interested to see Republican's question answered by ANYONE.

What type and amount of evidence would it take for someone of Religious faith to stop believing?

The Answer?

OK, i´ll push your button. When you atheists out there can convince me that the building blocks of the universe, namely cosmic dust, has all the ingredients needed to create all what we see through our telescopes and all that we see on our planet, in all it´s mind-boggling complexity, then I´ll bark up your tree. We have samples of cosmic dust here on Earth. You can check them out. Analyze them down to their nano particulates. Point to me where the structures for life creation are embedded. Point to me where your proof lies for a Godless universe. You have the physical evidence to prove your non-belief. Do it and be vindicated. Fail, well, your always welcome to change your mind and hop on God´s bandwagon. There is room for you.

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers

26) Pathos- Christian, Bible, God, etc. No answer to OP's question-UPDATED later on in the thread Pathos said they he/she was not even sure of his/her own beliefs so I am going to place you in the Agnostic bin.

I AM DISAPPOINT!

34 people and we have 5 answers between ALL of you?

(1) I did answer his question.
(2) I didn't once question my own beliefs.
(3) I am not an Agnostic, but I am a different kind of Christian. Sure I stretch my belief system to except the possibility of other explanations, but don't for one minute get me wrong. Christ is my Messiah. My crime is that I am not a Christian computer; thus, you won't get an answer to his question in biblical form. You will find that the majority of Catholics are not Christian computers.

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
reply to post by jon1

 

Speak for yourself. God is kind of absent from the little bubble I live in. I asked God for proof many times with sincerity and have not found any. It is impossible for me to NOT question God's existence. My final conclusion is that the reason that my sincere requests for proof go without being proven is that there does not exist a God.

Or, maybe you made the request in the wrong way. Humility is the key to Christianity.

Maybe you got an answer that you didn't like? Could it be that your looking for a specific answer, but you ended up getting something you didn't expect?

[edit on 2-8-2009 by Pathos]

And if you could create some kind of single cell beast with said cosmic dust, that would be icing on the cake. You can even cheat natural evolution by introducing optimal environments such as heat, various types of light and water, mixing various dust particles together, even introducing chemical influences to your creation soup found in early Earth´s atmosphere...heck you can even use machines to do the mixing for you.

Or you can join these crusaders in their quest: www.msnbc.msn.com...

Perhaps this is what it will take for some of you to stop disbelieving in God:

smphillips.8m.com...

I mean, mathematical facts and rigorous analysis are always more convincing than wishy-washy arguments, theories and empty speculations, aren't they?

It may take you a few months to master these 50 research articles well enough to see in them astounding and overwhelming evidence amounting to proof of the existence of transcendental design of various aspects of Nature. But it will be worth it for those willing to make the effort. Those who just want to continue playing with words are advised to ignore them.

Originally posted by Totakeke
reply to post by moocowman

 

So how exactly, is it possible for the creator of "everything" to want anything ?

We have free will; we get to choose to either accept or reject God's son, Jesus Christ, as our savior. God can want because He can't force us to place our faith in Christ.

[edit on 2-8-2009 by Totakeke]

That's all well and good but your answer doesn't actually mean anything, to someone not schooled in nonsensical reasoning.

Let's make my question a little simpler and perhaps I may get a reasonable answer.

If god is the creator of "everything" then there's is absolutely "nothing" that is not created by god.

For god to want, clearly implies that there's something that is not of god, which is quite clearly impossible if god created "everything" that there is.


You can't have it both ways my friend, you can't have god being all that there is, and also have something that god is not.

Either god "is" all that there is or god is not "all" that there is, if god "is" all that there is then there is nothing that god could want as there is nothing that is "not" god as god is everything to begin with.

Please explain the source of the portion of existence that god should "want", unless of course it does not exist and is merely part of a delusion.

reply to post by moocowman

You can't have it both ways my friend, you can't have god being all that there is, and also have something that god is not. Either god "is" all that there is or god is not "all" that there is, if god "is" all that there is then there is nothing that god could want as there is nothing that is "not" god as god is everything to begin with.

I never said God is all there is. Matter isn't God; matter is matter.

reply to post by moocowman

It's all well and good hearing at church how jesus cured a man's gout or a old woman with crippling arthritis suddenly going for a jog. Xtians go around every Sunday evening with these silly hearsay stories, they'll believe anything their pastor tells them.

I've been to one of these 'healing' things- One word: SHILL. There isn't healing because THERE ISN'T. It's all a gimmick to pull in more money. I have yet to see an actual miracle (don't take any stock in those TV shows where the 'minister' pulls someone from an audience- those are paid actors). I'd like to see 'God' completely heal an amputee myself. I'd like to see them cure a REAL blind person, AND bring someone back from the dead. I'm not talking 5 minutes with no life signs- I mean bring in the coffin and put on the environmental gear. Faith moves mountains? Let's see faith move someone's damaged house to a better piece of land, and fixed completely and instantly. Let's see God bring home a missing person Boom, flash, there they are. LET US SEE THE WARS IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN STOPPED. Let us see the crooked people in power removed! Forget technology- none should be needed whatsoever.

Where is your God? Allah? Krishna? *insert your deity of choice here* If your deity is SO big, and SO powerful- why am I still alive? Why hasn't your deity of choice burned me to the ground? How come I can sit here and gleefully rip your deities to shreds?

Why, after years of prayer and just plain crying out, have my ills- my 'petty, minor ills' that to any deity would be no harder than a sneeze- why has NO ONE answered them? (what I'd love to know is why the exact opposite has happened, even with hard work to go the opposite direction) If your deities aren't afraid of me, why hide?

Here I am- where's Jesus, Krishna, or Allah? Heck, I'll even go get a shower in and dress decent! Angels? demons? Prophets? Here I am. No one wants to come visit and have a talk? Where is one of your deities to get in my face and inform me THEY are the one true one, and I should believe in them?

Wow. I hear crickets and the a/c going. I see... Heck- I don't even see my cats. They went off for a nap.

Now- let's have a list of what I'll see and hear:

Christians: I'll have all the churchies gang up and tell me how I'm going to hell. I'll have scripture thrown at me the same way an angry chimp throws crap. I'll be condemned, ridiculed, and pitied. All I'd have is your WORD that 'God' is real- and I wouldn't trust a Christian as far as I could spit one. You're the biggest (and dare I say, worse) group of hypocrites this planet has ever seen.

Allah's kids: I'll be expecting one of your soo ee side bombers on my doorstep if you're an extremist, and a 'meh' if you're not.

Krishna: Probably shake their heads at me

Everyone else: results vary

AND STILL I'd have no appearance, no signs, no miracles, No vaporization of me, no nothing. I haven't burst into flames, I haven't been grabbed by my shirt collar and had an almighty mouth screaming in my ear.... Just a bunch of hot air and silly human beings who think they are far wiser and better off than me.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


I'm less here to prove or disprove, and here to continue in my never ending rant at Christianity. All I have experience with IS Christians- and lemme tell you- a nastier bunch of people I am not sure I have ever met. Been pulling knives out of my back now for well over 20 years.

Originally posted by wylekat
reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

 

I'm less here to prove or disprove, and here to continue in my never ending rant at Christianity. All I have experience with IS Christians- and lemme tell you- a nastier bunch of people I am not sure I have ever met. Been pulling knives out of my back now for well over 20 years.

Just because you've had bad experiences with Christians (who might not even be real Christians; people use the term "Christian" very loosely) doesn't mean every Christian is like that. Is it fair for me to say that I've had bad experiences with people who read a lot, so that must mean that everyone who reads a lot will cause me problems? No. I know a lot of Christians, real Christians who have accepted Christ, and they are the nicest people I've ever met.

[edit on 2-8-2009 by Totakeke]

reply to post by wylekat


You seem like a chilled out sort of guy. I can't for the life of me understand why you havn't met God yet.

reply to post by Totakeke

You seem like a chilled out sort of guy. I can't for the life of me understand why you havn't met God yet.

Well, sarcasm helps NOT. This is the type of crap I am talking about. You people are supposed to be upholding an ideal of how Jesus should be- and what do I see? A sarcastic, lying, stealing, cheating, SOB who likes to see people like me die a slow, painful death- while ones who deserve no more than a shot in the mouth get all they desire.

The bible is the very first history book, just over many many many years too many things have been changed and twisted for what people wanted it to be twisted to, it is a lil uncredible.

However there was a being that created us in his image, but he was just an alien doing Genetic work.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Republican08
Ok so i've become overwhelmingly frustrated with the lunatics, that say that until, I provide (or any numerous of people) a 100% factual object, place noun here, that disproves there being any god out there.

So there is your answer. Why are you asking this question "What will it take for you to Stop Believing!? (Deity)".
It is because you cannot do that. Just like they cannot show you a God that will make you believe in one. Get over it.
YYYYYYuck I just stepped in some bile, is that yours? Its all over the OP.

Now I can debate you, and for the most part win, that the Judeo god, hindu gods, alla, and others, are all hypocritical sadistic, bipolar, gods. That do what they preach againsts, and disprove themselves in the same text that many people believe in them.

Debate, dribble, repeat, regurgitate. One set of doctrine and dogma for another....zzzzzzzzzz.

There seems to be more, and more, and more substantiating evidence, mounting that Deities and such, are not real, or not at all how depicted in ancient texts.

And there is more evidence pointing out the impossible complexity of the universe being somewhat of a design. Answer this. If the universe sprang from nothing, how did nothing know it could be a universe, what rule or LAW said that nothing could become something? The reason why people believe there is a creator is because through a time reversal of isotropic expansion of the universe we return to a singularity. This scientific belief is consistent with only one doctrine. The bible, which describes just one G*D creating the universe, althought I like Ricky Gervais take on it better than the Jewish one. www.youtube.com...

Yet, here comes the uprising of agnostics.

Uprising...lol. Oh the dramatics. I like your style.

"Well, the judeo god may not be a real god, but I still believe in a god, I feel obligated to, and until you disprove this being that I know nothing about, I will keep believing in him". What the hell? What is that? Honestly, this is your rebuttal, that somehow your thinking process' became retarded.

The only thing retarded is your attempt at painting all beliefs in such a simple manner, when billions of people have many reasons to believe in a God or Gods. Can you answer all the biggest questions for these people....No, so a belief does. Get over it. OR explain how the universe was created, explain how life first sprang into existence(please spare me the "theory or chance of the Gaps"), explain why we are here. Give people meaning to their existence, provide them with hope. Lay down a foundation by which they can try and live their lives. Easy, you can do that can't you. Because that is just some of what people use a belief in GOD or GODS for.

Or the oh so common, Well how do you explain the universe being here, how do you explain that you atheist!?

Well why does it need a deity? Why does the universe have to have a creator! If it has a creator, who created the creator!?

Perhaps why a deity is need is to quantify or relate to what a person believes is the overall force or energy behind existence. Anthropomorphing of this kind is not uncommon. It is logical and an observed phenomena, so why would it be different in relating to or presenting an idea as an answer to the many mysteries of life and existence. You are ranting against humans purely being humans.

And then the next rebuttal is, well GOD! is an infinite being, he is the alpha and the freakin omega! He is not bound by time (but has male genitalia, for feminists i'll put she with it) He/She has been and always will be, for eternity.

Well think about it , If there is a god and god created the Universe, he would be infinite because time only existed as a consequence of that GODs creation and so time is only applicable to us as a concept because we are finite beings that measure with time, and not infinite and unmeasurable like the G*D described in some doctrines and dogma. On the same token, if there is no GOD, how did the universe come into existence? Did it come from nothing? If so how. But If the universe is eternal and has just always existed, than how is that not as impossible as a GOD being eternal? These are questions I ask myself.

Well that's just friggin fantastic! But then again, why can't the universe be the same, why does it have to be a person?

I don't think you could describe the any GODS as being a PERSON. Many GODS and GODDESSES take on the Human form as well as animal forms, or are descrbe as being of supranatural appearance. But I would argue that the majority of people who believe in GOD's see them as being beyond a mere person.

Now, i'd just like to know, why the world needs a creator?

Logic. How did nothing make something?
Where do we see in the Universe, nothing making something. Can you show me where we observe that.
That is why people ponder and come to a belief that there must be some kind of force or being or consciousness that "created" the universe. How is it logical to conclude that it all came from nothing. If on the other hand you believe the universe is eternal but was not created by a god, it never the less supports the idea that other things could also be eternal, like a GOD.

Some people claim well we have conciousness, ergo there must be a god. Why? Cheetahs run fast, does that make a god real? Beavers build dams, does that make a god real? Water flows, does that make a god real? Bacteria feeds, does that make a god real? Protein exists, does that make a god real? There is a universe in which we live in. AN EXTREMELY LARGE FRIGGIN HUGE AMOUNT OF SPACE! Does that make a god real?

Firstly, we have sentience. We form beliefs about GODS because we create things purely from our consciousness that other life on earth cannot. When we, as humans observe the wonders of nature, the complexity, the beauty, the enormity, it inspires wonder and a logical question arises, "how was it created", "what created this", "what force is behind it all" "where di it all come from". Currently the most popular answer is GOD did it. Much to your annoyance I am sure. LOL.

Why do people feel this insistent urge to believe they were created, purposely or unpurposly?

I was created. I was created on purpose by my mother and father. There is a cycle of creation that we have been trying to follow and study up and to a point, where knowledge breaks down. Abiogenesis. Everything was created from something, we just don't know how it started, hence people either fill in the blanks with the Doctrine they choose- GOD, or Chance, or Aliens etc. It is a fact that both you and I were created. So for me it is not an insistent urge but an observation that there is a pattern of creation throughout the universe and there are rules, laws and parameters that govern this. It is the same with Stars, and planets, galaxies.

Were you not loved enoughed by your parents, to loved, the kid in school picked on you all the time, so you felt comfort in knowing the CREATOR of the friggin universe, loved you, and created you, does that make you feel better, because it doesn't make a creator real. It makes an imaginary friend still imaginary.

Were you bullied at school, do you feel so insecure in your own beliefs that you need to try and convince people who believe in GODS that they are wrong. Are you so feeble minded as to pander to the same stereotypes and assumptions time and time again. Do you ignore all the unaswered question relating to existence, the flaws in ALL our knowledges that tells us that we cannot rule out anything, including GOD existing or not.

Why do people feel an insistent urge to believe that they will live forever?

I think you are mistaken. I think most people know and believe they will die. I think most religions and beliefs accept this.

I'll stop the thread, because many won't read the whole thing.

But this are questions that need answers by those especially here on ats to answer.

You have already answered the OP question in your First comment, the rest is a hate filled rant labeling people retarded etc etc.

And don't be that indian giver and just come back at me with questions. I'll take em, but there particularly annoying.

LOL. Not as annoying as your lame comments.
Can you please explain to me that if all quantum events are reliant on time, then did time exist before the singularity, and by singularity I mean, if you time reverse the observed isotropic expansion of the universe. How did time exist first?
Thanks, because if you can answer that, maybe I will rethink my stance on certain beliefs I have.

Originally posted by wylekat
reply to post by Totakeke

 

You seem like a chilled out sort of guy. I can't for the life of me understand why you havn't met God yet.

Well, sarcasm helps NOT. This is the type of crap I am talking about. You people are supposed to be upholding an ideal of how Jesus should be- and what do I see? A sarcastic, lying, stealing, cheating, SOB who likes to see people like me die a slow, painful death- while ones who deserve no more than a shot in the mouth get all they desire.

I wonder if it could have something to do with your attitude that i throw a little sarcasm your way.
I don't think thats to harsh from a sarcastic. lying, cheating, SOB.

DO YOU.....

PEACE..

reply to post by jon1


My attitude was formed from years of abuse, torment, you name it, I've been thru it. 98% of it by CHRISTIANS. The other 2% was actually my own devices! I started on this nasty little journey CONVINCED God was there to help me and treat me with goodness, kindness, and love. I have seen the light. Right before it hit me square between the eyes. I had a nice MUSLIM girl I used to talk to online (before her father I found out...) I have had better friends who were atheists, pagans, and even a witch who treated me better, nicer, and more honestly than Christians.

Christians, meanwhile have lied, cheated, stolen, mocked, and have done things I didn't even know were possible for the human mind to contemplate, let alone do. Christian women have used me for their own twisted purposes. They have destroyed me and broken my heart more times than I care think about- going for the hot guy who can give them money. Using me to get there.

So- you wanna be sarcastic? Fine. Keep feeding that stereotype. You can do more damage to your own religion with your responses than I *ever* could- so in that respect, go on. Keep doing my lightwork for me.

reply to post by wylekat


I just knew that you were another disgruntled christian who is having a good old moan because God was not upto thier expectations.

I think you may have a large chip on your shoulder so now every christian is in the firing line.

Stop letting people (christians) walk all over you then get a grip and sort yourself out.
With the language that comes out of your mouth i am not surprised that everyone dumps on you from a great hight.

Grow up and take charge of your life. no one else will..

Originally posted by moocowman

Obviously it wasn't clear what was meant by "giving his life to the lord" you have to appreciate that , you may write like Ted Haggard talks and I may not necessarily be fully conversant in xtian speakology.

I once almost became a catholic in order to get some trim from the most hottest babe I ever came across at the time.

Needless to say if I was asked to testify my belief in god I would have done so at the drop of a hat in order to get hitched up with the babe in question.

So "at the drop of a hat" you will compromise your integrity to manipulate a woman, who takes her purity very seriously, just to selfishly satisfy your own lust. You even seem proud of it, the correct classification for a person exhibiting that that behavior is sociopath.

Ashley D is a very beautiful intelligent woman and I respect her beauty more than her beliefs, which seem kind of strange to me. Now if I were a few years younger I wouldn't bat an eyelid at accepting her beliefs as my own in order to wake up next to her every morning for the rest of my life (well at least till she got all wrinkly lol) , no problem at all dude, I'd be thanking Allah or anyone else she asked me to thank for my good fortune.


(No offense AD if your reading this heathen, just trying to make a point)

The fact that you actually have the gall to believe "no offense" covers your sexual innuendo's toward a married woman (that values faithfulness). In addition, your treatment women as pieces of meat for your personal enjoyment is not even as disgusting as your utter disregard for their intellect. A Christian woman would see right through your pretense at belief.

This boasting demonstrates your complete amorality. The further you get from God the more corrupt you become and you are a shining testimony to that reality. I implore you to repent because you will be judged by a Holy God.

You own words and attitude are the fulfillment of Bible prophecy :

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.

Yes that's you. Your complete lack of common decency is only eclipsed by your lack of personal integrity. You are without excuse.



[edit on 8/2/2009 by Bigwhammy]

Heh. Beautiful women are the ones you have to watch out the most for- they'll shove a knife in your back and wiggle it til they've carved a hole in your front. I've seen beautiful women act so ugly, it's actually repelled me.

Your need for a hot piece is misguided. Quit thinking with your pants.