Why read the Healthcare Bill? Here is why!

Their gonna slowly kill the elderly and the people who are already sick with this bogus health care plan, and to top it off bankrupt America.......were all screwed.

"Forced abortion and compulsory sterilization" "mandatory 'end of life' counseling"

This coming from the party that cares? The only ones who will benefit will be the low life's. The ones that don't care, don't work and will not go to these "forced" counseling sessions anyway.

I am glad I am still young enough to fight... The older folks in this country are screwed if this passes but then again maybe that's not so bad? Its those older folks that keep voting these same two parties / kooks into office.

Maybe things will change once enough old people have been converted to soilent green wafers aka aborted. Of course what are they going to do with all the young people that can fight that love these older people?

Let's look at another one....at random, shall we?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
PG 427 Lines 15-24 Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The Government has a say in how your life ends.

Actual content...

15 ‘‘(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
16 treatment for a States described in this clause is a
17 program that—
18 ‘‘(I) ensures such orders are standardized
19 and uniquely identifiable throughout the State;
20 ‘‘(II) distributes or makes accessible such
21 orders to physicians and other health profes
22 sionals that (acting within the scope of the pro
23 fessional’s authority under State law) may sign
24 orders for life sustaining treatment;

Emphasis added by cranberrydork

"Orders for life sustaining treatment"......are ya' having a little trouble with the verbosity of the document? Some do, it's in politician's natures to word things in a heavy handed way. Nonetheless, "life sustaining treatment" definitely does not sound like some sinister plan to conduct euthanasia through neglect.

PG 429 Lines 10-12 "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from the Government to end a life!

The actual content;

10 ‘‘(4) A consultation under this subsection may in
11 clude the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining
12 treatment or a similar order.

Hey, there's that bit about "life sustaining treatment" again.

Reading the entirety of the sections is strongly recommended....from page 429;

13 ‘‘(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ‘order
14 regarding life sustaining treatment’ means, with respect
15 to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to
16 the treatment of that individual that—
17 ‘‘(i) is signed and dated by a physician (as de
18 fined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care
19 professional (as specified by the Secretary and who
20 is acting within the scope of the professional’s au
21 thority under State law in signing such an order, in
22 cluding a nurse practitioner or physician assistant)
23 and is in a form that permits it to stay with the in
24 dividual and be followed by health care professionals
25 and providers across the continuum of care;

Emphasis added by me.

Appalling, the level of ignorance spouted out nowadays. The provision clearly establishes a mechanism for continuing necessary, life sustaining treatments, regardless of the payer or provider.

OP....your opening post is filled with ignorance and outright dishonesty. Please take the time to read the bill and try to understand it....if you're having trouble, don't assume what others have written is the end all be all.

Stop spreading lies, disinformation, and ignorance.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Did you just go through and make most those quotes up. Because Im reading the Bill and Im not seeing what you posted in the spots you quoted!

Let's grab another one....

Originally posted by getreadyalready
PG 253 Line 10-18 Government sets value of Doctor's time, professional judgment, etc. Literally, value of humans.

Actual content...

10 ‘‘(ii) COMPONENTS AND ELEMENTS
11 OF WORK.—The process described in
12 clause (i) may include validation of work
13 elements (such as time, mental effort and
14 professional judgment, technical skill and
15 physical effort, and stress due to risk) in
16 volved with furnishing a service and may
17 include validation of the pre, post, and
18 intra-service components of work.

We should include "clause (i)" for clarity's sake;

6 ‘‘(i) IN GENERAL.—The Secretary
7 shall establish a process to validate relative
8 value units under the fee schedule under
9 subsection (b).

I'm still working through the section myself....it has a large number of cross-references that need to be looked at to understand the section in its entirety. However, there is nothing that indicates "literally, value of humans." That hyperbole is simply fear-mongering.

And I have a news flash for you....our current system of payers already determines the value of doctors and their treatments. I have first hand experience of this. I don't like it and I bitch and moan about the way it already is. Don't try to pass off what is already an industry standard as some nefarious plot cooked up by the government.

More ignorance and disinformation.

And simply lifting someone else's post from another forum with some cosmetic changes is considered bad form.

Originally posted by cranberrydork
Let's grab another one....

Originally posted by getreadyalready
PG 253 Line 10-18 Government sets value of Doctor's time, professional judgment, etc. Literally, value of humans.

Actual content...

10 ‘‘(ii) COMPONENTS AND ELEMENTS
11 OF WORK.—The process described in
12 clause (i) may include validation of work
13 elements (such as time, mental effort and
14 professional judgment, technical skill and
15 physical effort, and stress due to risk) in
16 volved with furnishing a service and may
17 include validation of the pre, post, and
18 intra-service components of work.

We should include "clause (i)" for clarity's sake;

6 ‘‘(i) IN GENERAL.—The Secretary
7 shall establish a process to validate relative
8 value units under the fee schedule under
9 subsection (b).

I'm still working through the section myself....it has a large number of cross-references that need to be looked at to understand the section in its entirety. However, there is nothing that indicates "literally, value of humans." That hyperbole is simply fear-mongering.

And I have a news flash for you....our current system of payers already determines the value of doctors and their treatments. I have first hand experience of this. I don't like it and I bitch and moan about the way it already is. Don't try to pass off what is already an industry standard as some nefarious plot cooked up by the government.

More ignorance and disinformation.

nefarious plot

Hang on, this is a nefarious plot by the government. Just not in the way the OP wrote it.

reply to post by arcnaver


It could be a nefarious plot; or it could be a genuine attempt to make a significant social impact, performed in a clumsy, partisan manner. I don't think there is enough data to make a decision about that either way. What is clear is that the current state of health care and health insurance in this country is not working in the best interests of the residents of this country.

And the best strategy to effect some changes is through reasoned, fact based discussion....not this kind of garbage fear-mongering and disinformation.

I think most people are failing to notice the real issue here.

Yes this healthcare bill is horrible. However what should be discussed here and pointed out to the ignorant public is this...

you cant deny the fact that this bill is clearly a means to lower global populations. This is being purposefully done.

This bill has nothing to do with healthcare. its about killing off disabled and eldery people or as the elite call them, "useless eaters"

The days of calling us conspiracy theorists are over. This billl clearly indicates what the elite plan for us.

Originally posted by cranberrydork
reply to post by arcnaver

 

It could be a nefarious plot; or it could be a genuine attempt to make a significant social impact, performed in a clumsy, partisan manner. I don't think there is enough data to make a decision about that either way. What is clear is that the current state of health care and health insurance in this country is not working in the best interests of the residents of this country.

And the best strategy to effect some changes is through reasoned, fact based discussion....not this kind of garbage fear-mongering and disinformation.

i used to think that it was just bad luck or greed or bad judgement or some other rational excuse to why bad things seem to happen to society.

But after a hundred years of so-called incompetence Ive come to realize these "mistakes" are purposefully done.

The recent recession wasnt an accident or a result of greed. It was done on purpose.

The Great Depression also was engineered and planned. It didnt just happen.

Senator Charles Lindberg sr predicted this would happpen after the Federal Reserve act passed. He stated that depressions and recessions would be scientifically manufactured on purpose.

Its time for society to wake up and realize that these elite are very smart men. and these arent just a serious of bad accidents that constantly happen to us. This bill doesnt contain all these plans for euthenizing elderly by accident. Someone made sure to put that in there.

Originally posted by admriker444
you cant deny the fact that this bill is clearly a means to lower global populations. This is being purposefully done.

This bill has nothing to do with healthcare. its about killing off disabled and eldery people or as the elite call them, "useless eaters"

If we "cant deny the fact", and it is "clearly a means", and it's about "killing off disabled and eldery (sic) people", you should be able to support that with some actual evidence or corroborating sources.

Can you do that? Personally, I don't think you can. All you have is a desire to spread fear and nonsense to as many people as you can.

reply to post by admriker444


Congrats, you quoted and then completely disregarded the concept of reasoned, fact-based discussion.

Please move your desk to the front of the room....you're clearly a pupil that needs closer attention.

reply to post by getreadyalready


More paranoid right wing tin-foil hat nonsense that you obviously copy+pasted from a website that has an agenda you don't mention in your post. If things aren't changed dramatically YOUR care will cost more and you will get less(or NOTHING) in the future. Keep putting your faith in the Right and you'll lose not only your freedom but your wallet too. Wake up already.

i guess were all morons then according to you. im currently attending a medical conference in orlando florida. and guess what, most of us here know what this plan means, why well because we've read it.

some of it is subject to interpretation as its written in typical legal jargon so to hide its meaning from the public.

its not fooling the doctors here at this conference. this healthcare plan has nothing to do about healthcare. its about control of a human being.

this is an orwellian nightmare and no longer subject to discussions in conspiracy circles. im seeing docs from med school that are talking about practicing medicine under the table if this plan passes. others are talking about leaving the country.

its that bad

reply to post by DrMattMaddix

part 1 of 3


Hi doc.

I don't know if you're a doctor (as your username implies) or not, but you must be able to read an outline format, and keep the pieces your reading in context. (I'll similarly give you the benefit of the doubt, even after making your insulting inference.)

To examine the points you are noting I am using a certified PDF of H. R. 3200 fom the U. S. Government Printing Office (GPO), available here: HR3200

The first point you make is:

I've spent hours looking at this bill including the part where they redefine a number of contagions Hep. B , Influenza and classify that under a new heading... "Federally Recommended Vaccination" as quoted below.

Now, Federally Recommended Vaccination definition as shown on page 499 states clearly:

"an approved vaccine recommended by the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices" which is a committee created by the Secretary; and acts as an agent of the CDC. (Which in turn is on the board of WHO.)

There is no way to understand a random piece of information from a legal document (as they use an outline format) without viewing the section from the beginning. Your quote is from section 1310 which starts back on page 498 (and that is actually part of Title III starting on page 443).

I will cut and paste directly fron the noted PDF. Please excuse my use of the "ex"code to accuratly represent the outline, and highlight your qoted bits in Lime Green.

TITLE III—PROMOTING PRIMARY CARE, MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES, AND COORDINATED CARE

--non-relevant sections omitted for brevity--

SEC. 1310. EXPANDING ACCESS TO VACCINES.

(a) IN GENERAL.—Paragraph (10) of section 1861(s) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w(s)) is amended to read as follows:

‘‘(10) federally recommended vaccines (as defined in subsection (lll)) and their respective administration;’’.

(b) FEDERALLY RECOMMENDED VACCINES DEFINED.—Section 1861 of such Act is further amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:

‘‘Federally Recommended Vaccines
‘‘(lll) The term ‘federally recommended vaccine’ means an approved vaccine recommended by the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (an advisory committee established by the Secretary, acting through the Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention).’’.

Then you jump to:

Page 500:
Section 1861(ww)(2)(A) of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1395x(ww)(2)(A))) is amended by striking ‘‘Pneumococcal, influenza, and hepatitis B and administration’’ and inserting ‘‘Federally recommended vaccines (as defined in subsection (lll)) and their respective administration’’.

This is still part of section 1310, but part of an entirely different subsection that looks like this:

(c) CONFORMING AMENDMENTS.—

(1) Section 1833 of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1395l) is amended, in each of subsections (a)(1)(B), (a)(2)(G), (a)(3)(A), and (b)(1) (as amended by section 1305(b)), by striking ‘‘1861(s)(10)(A)’’ or ‘‘1861(s)(10)(B)’’ and inserting ‘‘1861(s)(10)’’ each place it appears.
(2) --omitted for brevity--
(3) --omitted for brevity--
(4) --omitted for brevity--
(5) Section 1861(ww)(2)(A) of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1395x(ww)(2)(A))) is amended by striking ‘‘Pneumococcal, influenza, and hepatitis B and administration’’ and inserting ‘‘Federally recommended vaccines (as defined in subsection (lll)) and their respective administration’’.

Okay, now we have an accurate copy of what the bill says to analyze your statments.

continued...

[edit on 1-8-2009 by Theli93]

reply to post by DrMattMaddix

...continued (part 2 of 3)



So far we have the portion(s) of the bill we are examining... but this IS NOT a stand-alone bill. It clearly states in section 1310(a) above:

Paragraph (10) of section 1861(s) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w(s)) is amended to read as follows:

Since it is modifying a pre-existing law we need to look at paragraph (10) of section 1861(s) of the Social Security Act (which is Title 42 of the United States Code, Section 1395), and it can be viewed from the U. S. Social Security Administration website at: Social Security Online

This portion of the Social Security Act is currently as follows:

Part E—Miscellaneous Provisions

DEFINITIONS OF SERVICES, INSTITUTIONS, ETC.

Sec. 1861. [42 U.S.C. 1395x] For purposes of this title—

--non-relevant sections omitted for brevity - to about 1/4 way down--

Medical and Other Health Services

(s) The term “medical and other health services” means any of the following items or services:

(1) --omitted for brevity--
(2) --omitted for brevity--
(3) --omitted for brevity--
etc...

(10)(A) pneumococcal vaccine and its administration and, subject to section 4071(b) of the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1987[454], influenza vaccine and its administration; and

(B) hepatitis B vaccine and its administration, furnished to an individual who is at high or intermediate risk of contracting hepatitis B (as determined by the Secretary under regulations);

Now we must jump to about 3/4 of the way down to get to sub-paragrapa (A) of paragraph (2) of sub-section (ww) of the same section of the same Social Security Act, which is encompased as:

Initial Preventive Physical Examination

(ww)(1) The term “initial preventive physical examination” means physicians’services consisting of a physical examination (including measurement of height, weight, body mass index, and blood pressure) with the goal of health promotion and disease detection and includes education, counseling, and referral with respect to screening and other preventive services described in paragraph (2) and end-of-life planning (as defined in paragraph (3)) upon the agreement with the individual, but does not include clinical laboratory tests.

(2) The screening and other preventive services described in this paragraph include the following:

(A) Pneumococcal, influenza, and hepatitis B vaccine and administration under subsection (s)(10).

Now we have all the parts needed to put your bits in proper context. and see what the bill really does say.

continued...

reply to post by DrMattMaddix

...continued (part 3 of 3)

MY ANALYSIS & SUMMARY

1. Your quoted bits of the bill may now be summarized as: In "EXPANDING ACCESS TO VACCINES" for "Medical and Other Health Services" the Social Security Act will now include any "Federally recommended vaccines" as provided by "the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices" which is "an advisory committee established by the Secretary, acting through the Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’’, instead of only "Pneumococcal, influenza, and hepatitis B vaccine", which previously could only be updated by an Act of Congress.
   
2. To me this would imply that—
   
   1. any new vaccine for any contagion that the CDC views as a hazard to a significant portion of the population could be made readily available to people on Social Security, instead of only the few vaccines previously listed.
      
   2. they could be made available without Congress having to change the law... while people are dying, waiting for them!
      
   3. This could include things such as Meningitis, or even H1N1 and/or HIV if and when they become available.
   
   
3. It appears to me that your analysis has been significantly less than thorough or accurate.
   
4. Your claim that:

   
   ...they redefine a number of contagions Hep. B , Influenza and classify that under a new heading... "Federally Recommended Vaccination"...

   has NO basis in fact.
   
   1. Not to mention that your proposal that a disease will now be called a vaccination (i.e. a prevention) is completely absurd.
   
   
5. Now, in light of your previous insinuation, I must ask; Who is a "firm disinfo..."?

I eagerly await demonstration of your time and effort in opposition.


P.S.
If our politicians and news services can not or will not provide us with this type of analysis and/or summary, with evidence, then THEY'RE NOT DOING THEIR D@/\/\N JOBS!!!

[edit on 1-8-2009 by Theli93]

The one thing not being debated is the most important...

is this plan legal ?

answer - NO !

The constitution does not grant the govt the power to create a mandatory healthcare plan. Nor does it give them the power to take this money from our paychecks.

The second most important question not being asked...

can we afford this ?

answer - NO !

We're maxed out in debt. We cant afford anymore debt. The dollar is already facing hyperinflation and total collapse. Millions of americans are unemployed and homeless now. So to help them we are going to raise taxes to pay for healthcare to cover illegal aliens that wont pay a dime.

This is pure insanity.

Originally posted by admriker444
this healthcare plan has nothing to do about healthcare. its about control of a human being.

Are you finding it kinda' hard to turn off the hyperbolic spigot?

Apparently you haven't lived in the real world where health insurance payers already exercise an immoral level of control over a human's health care and treatment.

You've offered nothing but "scare" words. You have not read--or you just don't understand--the terminology in the bill.

Originally posted by admriker444
The constitution does not grant the govt the power to create a mandatory healthcare plan. Nor does it give them the power to take this money from our paychecks.

Nonsense....you're just shooting from the hip now. If you really meant it, and really wished to invoke its solemnity, you would spell the name of the document correctly....it's the U.S. Constitution.

The Constitution doesn't explicitly grant the powers to regulate the atmosphere, water quality, vehicle emission standards, mpg ratings, K12 educational standards, etc.....ad infinitum....

Here's a bit from the U.S. Constitution...

Section 8. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Read that closely, especially the part about the "general Welfare of the United States."

You're just parroting the same crap that's been shouted before.....try something original....'kay?

[edit on 1-8-2009 by cranberrydork]