First Documented UFO Debunked

Originally posted by AlienCarnage
reply to post by FireMoon

 

So the idea that the USA was flying them in 1947 is complete and utter balderdash...

What about the American Freel Flying Wing glider from 1937 and the American Northrop N-1M from 1940.

Did these not exist??

They had nothing whatsoever to do with the Horten brothers designs. The only 2 YB35s ever built were converted to YB49s. The YB49, to the best of my knowledge didn't even fly till October 1947 so now Arnold saw Piston driven aircraft with a cruising speed of about 200 mph? The N1m had a top speed of 200 MPH probably about the same as Arnold's own aircraft..


[edit on 30-7-2009 by FireMoon]

It is not that much a a stretch to be able to see that those might have been some stealth design and yes that nine might have been built. Who is to say that Hitler had not already tested one and that it was good and then built the other eight?

reply to post by Pathos


Well it is certainly possible that what Arnold saw were secret aircraft it is highly ambiguous and misleading to call this case "debunked". There are other aspects to this story that don't fit well with the German theory. Also trying to connect the German aircraft theory with Roswell is even more of a stretch, how do you acount for the alien bodies? You do know about the other crash site too right? I only mention that because the other crash site contained a much more intact craft, and it looked nothing like the flying wings.

FYI: Plains of San Augustine Crash Site

Back to the Arnold case now, I think that a fleet of nine aircraft flying at Mach 2 in 1947 is less likely than the other option, which is a non human aircraft.

[edit on 7/30/2009 by jkrog08]

Originally posted by Mike Shackled
It is not that much a a stretch to be able to see that those might have been some stealth design and yes that nine might have been built. Who is to say that Hitler had not already tested one and that it was good and then built the other eight?

The records say so..... Horten built one Ho 229 Gotha built the other, which, as far as i know destroyed in a British bombing raid before the end of WW2..

Lets try and apply some logic to all this here... People are suggesting that. The USA were flying a highly advanced stealth design in 1947 and then, for some reason said. Let's scrap them and fly inferior aircraft for the next 3 decades , at which point, will will suddenly return to these designs. I know the tender system was a tad corrupt and open to bribery, but somehow i can't see even the USA being that stupid can you?

Originally posted by jkrog08
reply to post by Pathos

 

Well it is certainly possible that what Arnold saw were secret aircraft it is highly ambiguous and misleading to call this case "debunked". There are other aspects to this story that don't fit well with the German theory. Also trying to connect the German aircraft theory with Roswell is even more of a stretch, how do you account for the alien bodies? You do know about the other crash site too right? I only mention that because the other crash site contained a much more intact craft, and it looked nothing like the flying wings.

Back to the Arnold case now, I think that a fleet of nine aircraft flying at Mach 2 in 1947 is less likely than the other option, which is a non human aircraft.

how do you account for the alien bodies - Dead pilots who were burned severely in the wreckage.

nine aircraft flying at Mach 2 in 1947 is less likely than the other option - Did someone professional say Mach 2, or was it a civilian estimation of how fast they were going?

Originally posted by FireMoon

Originally posted by Mike Shackled
It is not that much a a stretch to be able to see that those might have been some stealth design and yes that nine might have been built. Who is to say that Hitler had not already tested one and that it was good and then built the other eight?

The records say so..... Horten built one Ho 229 Gotha built the other, which, as far as i know destroyed in a British bombing raid before the end of WW2..

Lets try and apply some logic to all this here... People are suggesting that. The USA were flying a highly advanced stealth design in 1947 and then, for some reason said. Let's scrap them and fly inferior aircraft for the next 3 decades , at which point, will will suddenly return to these designs. I know the tender system was a tad corrupt and open to bribery, but somehow i can't see even the USA being that stupid can you?

Don't forget in 1947 the United States was also flying Northrop YB-49.



National Museum of the Air Force:
www.nationalmuseum.af.mil...

[edit on 30-7-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by Pathos


It helps if you read what's gone before in the thread...The YB 49 flew for the first time in October 47 Arnold's sighting was June 24th...

Originally posted by FireMoon
reply to post by Pathos

 

It helps if you read what's gone before in the thread...The YB 49 flew for the first time in October 47 Arnold's sighting was June 24th...

It would be good if you have read about its prototypes, which were air born between 1942 to 1947. You don't call the plane YB-49 if its the first generation of the YB series.

YB-35 (1942)
www.nationalmuseum.af.mil...



Keep in mind that I only use Wikipedia for its pictures. I don't trust the information on that site. The National Museum of the US Air Force places the plane's development around 1942.

[edit on 30-7-2009 by Pathos]

There was only one flying wing shaped craft in the formation, according to Arnold. The one before last. He kept this information to himself in the first interviews. The others crafts were rounded, smaller, highly reflective and moving erratically.

reply to post by Pathos

how do you account for the alien bodies - Dead pilots who were burned severely in the wreckage.

Four foot tall pilots with over sized heads and eyes?

nine aircraft flying at Mach 2 in 1947 is less likely than the other option - Did someone professional say Mach 2, or was it a civilian estimation of how fast they were going?

Well I would guess it would be easy enough to judge the speed of of the objects considering he was an experienced pilot and knew how fast he was going and how much more fast they were moving. Either way according to his reports the objects had to be moving at supersonic speeds:

From the same sight you used....

Curious about their speed, he began to time their rate of passage: he said they moved from Mt. Rainer to Mt. Adams where they faded from view, a distance of about 50 miles (80 km), in one minute and forty-two seconds, according to the clock on his instrument panel. When he later had time to do the calculation, the speed was over 1,700 miles per hour (2,700 km/h). This was about three times faster than any manned aircraft in 1947. Not knowing exactly the distance where the objects faded from view, Arnold conservatively and arbitrarily rounded this down to 1,200 miles (1,900 km) an hour, still faster than any known aircraft, which had yet to break the sound barrier. It was this supersonic speed in addition to the unusual saucer or disk description that seemed to capture people's attention.

en.wikipedia.org...

It is interesting to note that the person who saw these objects just as they were passing out of Arnold's field of view, prospector Fred Johnson, saw them fly nearly over his head. He was working on the side of Mt. Adams when he noticed them traveling very rapidly,

www.nicap.org...

This from Arnold's report to the USAF, courtesy:www.nicap.org...

As the last unit of this formation passed the southern most high snow-covered crest of Mt. Adams, I looked at my sweep second hand and it showed that they had traveled the distance in one minute and forty-two seconds.

More...

Arnold knew where the objects were when he timed them. After all, he was an old mountain pilot and was as familiar with the area around the Cascade mountains as he was with his own living room. To cinch this point the fact that the objects had passed behind a mountain peak was brought up. This positively established the distance the objects were from Arnold and confirmed his calculated 1,700 - miles-per-hour speed. Besides, no airplane can weave in and out between mountain peaks in the short time that Arnold was watching them. The visual acuity factor only strengthened the "Arnold-saw-a-flying-saucer" faction's theory that what he'd seen was a spaceship. If he could see the objects 20 to 25 miles away, they must have been about 210 feet long instead of the poorly estimated 45 to 50 feet.

www.nicap.org...

Now Mr. Arnold knew the area, had a map, and timed and documented the objects. So with a very simple physics formula to quantify speed we will do the following:

Speed=Distance/Time

Plug in the numbers: 50/.0283r(102/3600)=1764.7058 mph

Mach 2 @ 10,000 feet =2.401 Mach (2.4 times the speed of sound)

exploration.grc.nasa.gov...

So after this fact we can see that the speed given by Mr. Arnold is QUITE accurate.

reply to post by nablator


That is another interesting point, maybe one was a "lead ship"?

Originally posted by jkrog08 Well I would guess it would be easy enough to judge the speed of of the objects considering he was an experienced pilot and knew how fast he was going and how much more fast they were moving. Either way according to his reports the objects had to be moving at supersonic speeds:

Wait! You originally said, "Mach 2". Second, did he ever fly a plane going at Mach 2?

reply to post by Pathos


Errr yes, the YB-35 of which 2 were built and had been grounded by 47, plus 2 that were being converted to jets in in 1947... which i also pointed out several posts ago... it was piston engined , as were all it's other contemporaires, that means it had a maximum top speed, in level flight of about 450mph, in reality it couldn't get near that speed.. the YB 35's top speed was sub 400 mph... which completely negates the idea it could have done what Arnold claimed the craft he saw do...

13 YB-35s were ordered only 2 were ever finished and 2 others were converted to YB-49s both of which, i believe, crashed... Only 2 YB-35 ever flew, the others, bar one a conversion to a reconnaisance version of the YB-49, designated the YB-49A, were scrapped without ever actually taking off. The 2 YB-49s were converted from the remaining 11 which were in production

7 others were to be converted to jests designated YB-35B but were never finished....

The YB-35s managed , to my knowledge 27 flights in total between the 2 that were built...

Originally posted by FireMoon
reply to post by Pathos

 

Errr yes, the YB-35 of which 2 were built and had been grounded by 47, plus 2 that were being converted to jets in in 1947... which i also pointed out several posts ago... it was piston engined , as were all it's other contemporaires, that means it had a maximum top speed, in level flight of about 450mph, in reality it couldn't get near that speed.. the YB 35's top speed was sub 400 mph... which completely negates the idea it could have done what Arnold claimed the craft he saw do...

13 YB-35s were ordered only 2 were ever finished and 2 others were converted to YB-49s both of which, i believe, crashed... Only 2 YB-35 ever flew, the others, bar one a conversion to a reconnaisance version of the YB-49, designated the YB-49A, were scrapped without ever actually taking off. The 2 YB-49s were converted from the remaining 11 which were in production

7 others were to be converted to jests designated YB-35B but were never finished....

The YB-35s managed , to my knowledge 27 flights in total between the 2 that were built...

Thanks. Your argument eats itself. You proved my point. You concluded that I was correct in saying that the US Government was experimenting with the YB series before 1947. Thank you.

Originally posted by jkrog08
More...

Arnold knew where the objects were when he timed them. After all, he was an old mountain pilot and was as familiar with the area around the Cascade mountains as he was with his own living room. To cinch this point the fact that the objects had passed behind a mountain peak was brought up. This positively established the distance the objects were from Arnold and confirmed his calculated 1,700 - miles-per-hour speed. Besides, no airplane can weave in and out between mountain peaks in the short time that Arnold was watching them. The visual acuity factor only strengthened the "Arnold-saw-a-flying-saucer" faction's theory that what he'd seen was a spaceship. If he could see the objects 20 to 25 miles away, they must have been about 210 feet long instead of the poorly estimated 45 to 50 feet.

www.nicap.org...

Now Mr. Arnold knew the area, had a map, and timed and documented the objects. So with a very simple physics formula to quantify speed we will do the following:

Speed=Distance/Time

Plug in the numbers: 50/.0283r(102/3600)=1764.7058 mph

Mach 2 @ 10,000 feet =2.401 Mach (2.4 times the speed of sound)

exploration.grc.nasa.gov...

So after this fact we can see that the speed given by Mr. Arnold is QUITE accurate.

Hmmm. He just happened to know his elevation? He just happened to know the distance between the ground and aircraft? He just so happened to have a calculator at that exact moment in time, so he can come up with the numbers quickly? Sounds like he is full of snot.

[edit on 30-7-2009 by Pathos]

Originally posted by Pathos

You guys have to wake up a little. Sure, I use to believe UFOs were real, but I kind of opened up to a sense of rationality. Even though I believe there are other species living on other planets, I have read and seen so much more in support of a Earthly explanation to UFOs.

[edit on 30-7-2009 by Pathos]

Since you started your crusade of delivering sense and rationality to mankind you could also help put some sense and rationality at hopeless guys like him: Paul R. Hill

Paul R Hill was a leading engineer and manager at the NACA (later NASA) Langley, Virginia research center. He was a leader in developing solid rockets and wind tunnels to test high-speed aircraft, missiles and spacecraft. He needed no study of hundreds of cases, photographs, or other evidence to convince him of the reality of UFO's. He had seen them with his own eyes. This led him to produce a complete engineering explanation of the UFO phenomenon using known physics. He found there was no need for recourse to other dimensions, faster-than-light-travel, or mystical explanations.

Hill witnessed a quartet of UFO's maneuver in the sky in 1952. His trained eye, having observed dozens of rocket launches and aircraft flight tests, could judge the velocity and G-capabilities of the objects. He had been involved in virtually every highly-classified high-performance rocket and aircraft program in the United States. He knew immediately what he saw could not be of earthly construction

However his supervisor, Bob Gilruth (Director of NASA Houston during the Apollo moon landing project), enforced an official policy that UFO's did not exist. NACA/NASA resources could not be spent investigating them. The best that Hill could manage was to be NASA's informal clearing house for UFO sightings. He also managed to instigate NASA projects on hovering platforms that allowed him to study the performance of UFO-type systems.

I am waiting...

[too bad I found this thread after 1 day]

reply to post by Pathos


Yea he did know his elevation, considering an airplane has an altimeter. He did not need to have a calculator, he documented the time to cover 50 miles and worked out the numbers afterwards. I mean it is pretty simple math.

Plus what does the elevation have to do with anything anyways? That would only affect the Mach number, either way an aircraft traveling at 1700 mph at any altitude would be well above sound.

EDIT to add; No need to get defensive, we are simply trying to have a scientific, logical, and mature investigation here.

[edit on 7/30/2009 by jkrog08]

Originally posted by spacebot
Since you started your crusade of delivering sense and rationality to mankind you could also help put some sense and rationality at hopeless guys like him: Paul R. Hill

Paul R Hill was a leading engineer and manager at the NACA (later NASA) Langley, Virginia research center. He was a leader in developing solid rockets and wind tunnels to test high-speed aircraft, missiles and spacecraft. He needed no study of hundreds of cases, photographs, or other evidence to convince him of the reality of UFO's. He had seen them with his own eyes. This led him to produce a complete engineering explanation of the UFO phenomenon using known physics. He found there was no need for recourse to other dimensions, faster-than-light-travel, or mystical explanations.

Hill witnessed a quartet of UFO's maneuver in the sky in 1952. His trained eye, having observed dozens of rocket launches and aircraft flight tests, could judge the velocity and G-capabilities of the objects. He had been involved in virtually every highly-classified high-performance rocket and aircraft program in the United States. He knew immediately what he saw could not be of earthly construction

However his supervisor, Bob Gilruth (Director of NASA Houston during the Apollo moon landing project), enforced an official policy that UFO's did not exist. NACA/NASA resources could not be spent investigating them. The best that Hill could manage was to be NASA's informal clearing house for UFO sightings. He also managed to instigate NASA projects on hovering platforms that allowed him to study the performance of UFO-type systems.

I am waiting...

[too bad I found this thread after 1 day]

Was it not Paul R. Hill who concluded that:

UFOs “obey, not defy, the laws of physics,” that not only was the technology explainable but ultimately attainable.

Since he never worked for the US military, I will concluded that he didn't know what they were working on. His work was an analysis of the physics behind UFOs, but he didn't overall conclude that they were not man made. What he did conclude was that UFO physics is logical, and it can be obtained and developed by mankind. He never once conceded to the notion that UFOs were created by aliens.

reply to post by Pathos


Who said the USA wasn't testing these airframes before 47?.. It's wholly irrelevant whether they tested them in 1909 or 1944, the most advanced Jet in the world until the introduction of the MIGs and Sabres was the Me 262, it our performed all other, even post war jets, until then. That much is acknowledged by every aviation expert on the planet...

Add all the wing shaped craft available in June 47 you still come up way short of 7, if you can actually find one that was flight worthy... That is all that really matters with recourse to the Arnold sighting...

Based on the Horton planes being very experimental.
And the Smithsonian lucky to have one.
I don't think we imported many.
However based on plans, a new body may have been constructed.
And what better engine than the stable saucer engine.
Plenty of saucers were available to escort the wing.
The wing contingent of anti gravity machines grew according to the
video I posted.
The Tesla 'safe in any weather' aircraft is suspected as the noted Foo
or saucer possessing great agility of air motion.
The rare wing configuration works with anti gravity as well as any air
frame.

Originally posted by FireMoon
Oh and it wasn't the first documented sighting of a UFO at all, another myth...

www.scribd.com...

A list of astronomers, you know them, they are the one's who never see UFOs...

You are right.

It was not the first UFO sighting.

It was the first time the term "flying saucer" was used.

It is a good practice to keep some props around for slight of hand. The declassified Northrop flying wing designs presented by Pathos and myself would have been the ones shown, if the project had actually been a success and were highly operational versions still being tested and used for black projects.

Let me put it another way, if you had a few unsuccessful tests and some very successful tests of secret aircraft, you would only show the non working ones saying that the project was a failure, meanwhile you continue to work on the successful tests. This would keep anyone from looking more into the story.

This tactic was suspected to be used on the Avrocar as well, only releasing the failures, while the continued research went on with some of the successes. Now I am not suggesting the Avrocar was what he saw, because the Avrocar came after his sighting and Roswell, I am just using this as an example as to how the military tries to hide their continuing projects, by flaunting only the failures of the projects. The Avrocar was part of Project Silver Bug, which still has unclassified documents in it, which is where I and others have interpreted that they only released the failures to the public.

Information on Project Silver Bug

www.crystalinks.com...

www.project1947.com...

greyfalcon.us...

[edit on 7/31/2009 by AlienCarnage]