Are atheists more intelligent than religious believers? Study suggests such a correlation

reply to post by badmedia

If the cards were played face up, they wouldn't be random at all. They are only random because you purposely gave away your free will and knowledge to have the experience of them being random.

A deterministic choice if ever there was one.


and on and on and on it goes.

[edit on 3-8-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by Welfhard


Just going to quote what omega posted. Since it came from a scientist.

If you think of whitte light as a metaphor of infinite, formless potential, the colors on a slide or frame of film become a structured reality grounded in the polarity that comes about through intelligent subtraction from that absolute formless potential. It results from the limitation of the unlimited. I contend that this metaphor provides a comprehensible theory for the creation of a manifest reality (our universe) from the selective limitation of infinite potential (God)...

If there exists an absolute realm that consists of infinite potential out of which a created realm of polarity emerges, is there any sensible reason not to call this "God"? Or to put it frankly, if the absolute is not God, what is it? For our purposes here, I will indentify the Absolute with God. More precisely I will call the Absolute the Godhead. Applying this new terminology to the optics analogy, we can conclude that our physical universe comes about when the Godhead selectively limits itself, taking on the role of Creator and manifesting a realm of space and time and, within that realm, filtering out some of its own infinite potential...

Viewed this way, the process of creation is the exact opposite of making something out of nothing. It is, on the contrary, a filtering process that makes something our of everything. Creation is not capricious or random addition; it is intelligent and selective subtraction. The implications of this are profound. If the Absolute in the Godhead, and if creation is the process by which the Godhead filters our parts of its own infinite potential to manifest a physical reality that supports experience, then the stuff that is left over, the residue of this process, is our physical universe, and ourselves included. We are nothing less than a part of that Godhead - quite literally.

And that is exactly what you 2 are talking about doing to produce the random and probability. Purposely limiting things in order to have the experience. So there you go, proof.

I call it the father/son relationship. Where the father is the creator that is infinite, and the son is the result of that limitation, and that which experiences the limitation.

What he says is exactly what I learned from my experience and understanding, which came directly from the father.

[edit on 8/3/2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia
Lack of knowledge does not = random.

If you're as intelligent as you keep insisting, Badmedia, then you really shouldn't keep getting lost in the argument as often as you do.

'Random' means 'occurring without order, pattern or sequence'.

It does not mean 'occurring without a cause'.

There are two ways to know something. The first is to look at it and see for yourself. The second is to work it out in advance (or without looking), based on other stuff you already know, and which allows you to see a pattern.

A random outcome is one that cannot be worked out the second way because there is no pattern. That means it cannot be predicted, not that it is undetermined.

There are many deterministic processes with random outcomes. The distribution of cards in a shuffled deck and of particles projected by an explosion are two examples. They are caused, their outcomes are fully determined, but those outcomes are random.

If you knew all the necessary preconditions and forces involved, you'd be able to predict the outcome. Randomness would vanish.

This has now been clearly explained to you numerous times. The errors and fallacies in your own arguments have also been made plain. Still you seem unable to understand. Good thing you've taken the trouble to keep us informed about how very clever you are, or some of us might by now be entertaining a very different opinion of your intelligence.

[edit on 3/8/09 by Astyanax]

Reply to post by infinite

Lovely bit of untrue generalized self congratulary fluff......


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Reply to post by Welfhard

Um, how would he build a atom bomb to drop on them? And while we are at it drop on them from what? A tall building? Just being silly, take no offense.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Astyanax
If you knew all the necessary preconditions and forces involved, you'd be able to predict the outcome. Randomness would vanish.

And that is exactly what is being said. Things have been purposely limited from the infinite as a means of bringing about such an experience. Things are only random due to a lack of knowledge. That limitation from that which is all knowing, to that which is limited is the father/son relationship.

That which is all knowing(god), purposely limits it's knowledge in order to bring about the experience we have before us. Random is only 1 part of it, it's also what causes time, space and change(change being part of time). As when all is known, these things do not exist because there is nothing new or unknown which can happen.

Poker or looking at a deck of cards face down is a live example of us doing exactly that in order to gain the experience. If the cards were face up, and all was known then odds, probability and chance go out the window, and the experience itself could not exist. Chance being a part of random.

It is our ability to tap into that which is beyond this creation of causality, that breaks the bondage of causality. Otherwise known as creativity. To be more than automated robots and AI like. To be able to create logic, rather than be slave to it and so forth.

This has now been clearly explained to you numerous times. The errors and fallacies in your own arguments have also been made plain. Still you seem unable to understand. Good thing you've taken the trouble to keep us informed about how very clever you are, or some of us might by now be entertaining a very different opinion of your intelligence.

Compared to what? You constantly telling me otherwise, twice in just this response alone. Or how about the numerous posts calling me ignorant for even having any belief in god, or the title of this thread which also perpetrates that I am ignorant?

If you are going to call me ignorant, directly or indirectly I'm going to let you know you are wrong. If you want to pretend or put that up as arrogance because I dare to protest, then go right ahead. But it was this thread and it's contents which brought my intelligence into question, not me.

Funny how it's ok to call me ignorant, but it is not ok for me to say I am not.








[edit on 8/3/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

Um, how would he build a atom bomb to drop on them? And while we are at it drop on them from what? A tall building? Just being silly, take no offense.

Yes, thank you, Watcher. It has already been pointed out to me that it's not the best of analogies.

But then again, if he had the understanding of the atomic bomb, he'd probably have the know-how needed to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools to make the A-bomb. And he could just have it motored across the sea or had it carried across the world in one of the crusades with a timer on it that gave the pope's men time enough to get away.

Just being silly.

reply to post by makinho21


yep that's what 'I' said.....
BUT i dont want it in a fruit salad
Point made I guess.... just there!

now with out dissecting every thing, you presume a lot...
These scientist and science you seem to rave about; you know every detail on it all? How many masters degrees do you have?...or do you take their word in some respect that they are telling you it's correct....

Don't even try and label believers as non critical thinkers, for goodness sakes I spent 30 years living searching, learning, experiencing...I still am 10 years after making a decision to choose faith.
Just so you know my IQ last tested was 139(I wonder what it could have been if I didn't have a 8year bender of alcohol and other substances and all the cells I killed LOL) my wife was 135 & we believe in God.
I have also met a few people with IQ above me that were down right idiots....

If you look at the Bible it specifically mentions to question everything....
I have never yet seen or read the part you seem to recite that says to blindly follow and believe what I am told to believe with drone like mentality.

but then again red cars go faster too, so a study said.....

reply to post by Welfhard


I know. But I doubt he'd be able to scrape together the tools seeing as to how he'd have to start frim scratch.

I can tell you Badmedia that you use Bible versus just as much as any Christian that I have ever seen. You have told me yourself that you consider the Bible to NOT be the direct manifestation of a God or a God's messengers giving divine messages to scribes and prophets. You said you even think Jesus could be fictional.

Yet you drop Christian scripture like a Christian.

Why is that?

Never have I have seen you quote the Qur'an.
Never have I seen you quote the Torah.

That would be like me picking the good parts of Mein Kampf and only quoting the good parts.

For you it is always Bible Versus.

What could possibly be the point of nearly every thread discussing religion for you to quote Christian Bible versus?

reply to post by badmedia


I was at the casino last night, and there are versions of poker where the cards are face up. Your whole premise on this father/son business is a personal assumption. Telling us how the "infinite purposely limits itself" is a joke - you can't know that, you just made that connection yourself.

Originally posted by 297GT
If you look at the Bible it specifically mentions to question everything....

Yep, question everything but God, that's a big no-no, lol.

And since he IS everything how you can possibly question anything ?

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
I can tell you Badmedia that you use Bible versus just as much as any Christian that I have ever seen. You have told me yourself that you consider the Bible to NOT be the direct manifestation of a God or a God's messengers giving divine messages to scribes and prophets. You said you even think Jesus could be fictional.

Yet you drop Christian scripture like a Christian.

Why is that?

Because the words speak truth in many cases. I'm sure many things are divinely inspired, but to call it the word of god is in itself not the truth. The word in which those people heard would have been the actual thing. To elevate the bible into such a place is to make it into a replacement for the real thing.

Things are put into positions of authority as a means of making people accept it. And that is contradictory to gaining understanding, which is the entire point.

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Scribes = those who write scripture.

The entire idea of accepting a book in such an authority is not smart at all. Because as has been done, people can just add books and such however they want. Take half the NT and the writings of Paul for example. Where as when I read Jesus I see the understanding I gained and such, and what I should do - I see the exact opposite in Paul.

Christianity is the anti-christ religion, which comes about through Paul. The church fulfills all the prophecies, right down to killing anyone who didn't go along with them, which is what lead to the false version you see today.

So many times, I quote the bible to show that Christians are not actually a reflection of it. It's against the acceptance you see today, and teaches the opposite of what you know as Christianity.

Never have I have seen you quote the Qur'an.
Never have I seen you quote the Torah.

The Torah is the first 5 books of the OT, I have quoted from it. And the Quran I'm just not that familiar with, as it's not within my culture. However, there are those within each of those who don't just focus on the literal who agree with me all the time. Understanding is universal, only the expressions of that understanding change from culture to culture.

Are you aware that the Torah is mostly allegorical, not literal? Why allegorical? Because allegories are used for understanding.

That would be like me picking the good parts of Mein Kampf and only quoting the good parts.

Never read it, wouldn't know of any good parts. But doesn't really matter to me what the source is if it's true. I was just as shocked as any to know the bible said the things it did, because it was certainly never presented that way to me at all. IMO, wherever you find wisdom and understanding, the father is near. Do you really think god only cares about a small portion of the population, or do you think it is more likely that some people looking for control say such things as a marketing scheme?

I also quote Buddha and many others as well. And find that as long as the person of a religion is based in understanding, there will be much agreement.

For you it is always Bible Versus.

What could possibly be the point of nearly every thread discussing religion for you to quote Christian Bible versus?

In many cases to show that it's not about what people think it is. That is the funny thing about all this. Everything that you can show that is bad about religion, the bible actually will tell you the same thing.

Christianity is a satanic religion built upon sacrifice. It worships the death of truth, so that the lie of this world could live. All the things Jesus dealth with still exist. Pharisees are simply evanglisits, popes and religious leaders. Money Changers are simply bankers. A synagogue is just a church. The names may change too fool people, but all you gotta do is look at them in action/function to see the truth.

The bible is against, not in favor of organized religion and such things. Religion is not the same thing as god. But you'll never know it as long as you accept them and their version as the authority.

Originally posted by makinho21
reply to post by badmedia

 

I was at the casino last night, and there are versions of poker where the cards are face up. Your whole premise on this father/son business is a personal assumption. Telling us how the "infinite purposely limits itself" is a joke - you can't know that, you just made that connection yourself.

Interesting, how you deny the very contextual framework within which reality arises, which is infinite ie: what's outside or contains the whole universe..?

Obviously, the infinite or the Asbolute is in some way limiting itself so that out of the implicate order, an explicate reality can present itself, or, there would be nothing at all, or just a vast sea of entirely RANDOM fluctuations.

The atheist ought not pin their belief or lack of it, on a randomly generated and utterly indifferent universe.

It's had plenty of time to become in-formed or self aware, on the path of progress, to ultimate actualization, which could have occured two or millions of universes, ago.

Originally posted by makinho21
reply to post by badmedia

 

I was at the casino last night, and there are versions of poker where the cards are face up. Your whole premise on this father/son business is a personal assumption. Telling us how the "infinite purposely limits itself" is a joke - you can't know that, you just made that connection yourself.

There are no versions of poker that feature the cards all being face up. Some are face up, but not all.

I can't know that, but yet you can somehow "know" that I made it up?

Why is that? Because you lack it? Surely if such was possible, you would know right?

reply to post by badmedia


Actually I THINK that there might be one version! I think it is called Indian Poker? Where everyone sticks their card to their forehead and bets lol. It sounds crazy I know but I DO think that all of the cards would be technically facing up.

Yes I know it does not really have ANY relevance to yalls discussion. And Thanks for answering me about my question about the bible versus. I appreciate it.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


Yes, I've played Indian poker. Of course, the thing with it is that you know the other persons card, but you don't know your own. And of course, if you knew all the cards in the rest of the deck, then you would be able to know what your card was from seeing which one was missing.

Funny game though, great drinking game for parties.

reply to post by badmedia


Yeah it is a great game. You are trying to use the tells and expressions from other peoples faces when they look at your own card while at the same time trying to prevent others from gaining insight into what card they have on their forehead.

It is pretty wild. There is not much of a chance to bet based on statistics and probability.

It is nearly all about the true art of poker, tell reading and bluffs.

Originally posted by 5thElement

Originally posted by 297GT
If you look at the Bible it specifically mentions to question everything....

Yep, question everything but God, that's a big no-no, lol.

And since he IS everything how you can possibly question anything ?

Interesting.. good post.

reply to post by OmegaPoint


God is not everything however. This is where I differ from new agers. I separate that from which can be observed and known, from that which does the observing. The ride from the rider, thought from the thinker etc.

But of course, god is within all things. Within, but not it. The 1 and only observer of all things and such.

To question the very foundation of reality itself is to merely question the thought.

Really a waste of time to question god itself. Because it is beyond logic. One would really only be questioning attachments applied to it. Like how we describe what "we" are, we end up using attachments and possessions to define ourselves. Because what we truly are is that which possesses, rather than the possession itself.

I could say I am "this" height, I am "this weight", I have "this" color eyes, I have "this" color hair, "I do "this" for a career etc. People try to define themselves through attachments, labels and such because what we truly are is undefinable.

In truth, those things do not define me, they merely define my experience.



[edit on 8/3/2009 by badmedia]