Science question: Does gravity propagate faster than the speed of light ?

You are right, I was thinking about another set of theories I am looking into.

Pulling the string would not be faster than light. It was flawed...

However, your question is flawed really. You are asking for a real answer to a fictional question.

The cause of it disappearing needs to be described.

I was just trying to explain to you how the Sun and it's gravity will be linked... as one object. They will both disappear at the same time. All planets will instantly know when the gravity is gone. It will not start in the middle and work it's way outward. Both the out parts of the curve, and inner parts of the curve will flatten out at the same rate the Sun is removed.

Nothing is traveling or propagating, just one big object that exists in multiple places at one time will be removed. For instance, the Sun's gravity can be felt here on Earth, and on Pluto (multiple places same time). If the Sun was removed, its gravity will be removed from Pluto and Earth simultaneously, it wont start in the middle and work it's way out.

reply to post by afoolbyanyothername


So are you saying that gravity propagates faster than light or slower?

There has always been much conjecture on this point, as the traditional Newton theories of gravity, have been shown to be wrong again and again.
My understanding is that gravity is the inverse property of light, and that it varies according to the speed of light in a particular region of the universe.
Oh you say, light is a constant.
Yes, but it varies all over the universe, so for a local observer, the 'local' speed of light is the only one observable to us.
Einstein's speed of light figure can only be achieved in a 'total' vacuum: i.e. in a universe totally devoid of matter, which isn't our universe, as it definitely has matter in it.

reply to post by ALLis0NE


As with your string analogy, perhaps my question was also "flawed" to the extent that it may be an impossible occurence with an equally impossible resolution.

I guess there are a myriad "thought experiments" that can be contemplated without there necessarily having to be a "final and definitive" answer ... and this was probably one of them !

Anyway, always fun to theorize, hey ???

gravity is instantaneous.
light has a top speed
gravity is faster than the speed of light

This is a very involved topic. The spacetime, or what the former poster referred to as an underlying substrate, appears bent in the presence of mass because mass emits EM waves. Assuming it is the interaction of these waves which gives rise to gravity, whilst the underlying substrate of spacetime remains untouched. So it is still a single velocity universe. The apparent bending of light is due entirely to the mutual attraction of EM waves, and lensing as repulsion of the same.

If the Sun were dissappeared, we would not feel any effects until the same amount of time passed as it would take the last photon to reach us. To actually change the properties of the spacetime would in essence be the same as changing to length of the string, which gives us a spacetime with new properties as light will have to travel at a relatively slower pace to maintain the single velocity.

I say that spacetime is more absolute in terms of measurement and light is absolute in terms of single velocity.

Is any of this making sense?

Gravity does affect light, it bends light, and if gravity is sufficiently great it will stop light from moving

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by an0maly33

 

Gravity does not affect the speed of light. Light appears to "bend" because of the curving of space-time but it is not accelerated.

Is this a fact? As far as I can find evidence we have never measured the speed of light outside the effects of gravity. I am not so sure that the speed of anything traveling outside the effects of the galaxies gravity would be the same as inside its influence. The curvature must indeed at least make the trip either longer or shorter for the photon before it reaches earth.

So light may move through the curve at the same speed but the curve would slow it down because it would not move in a straight line as far as our measuring it and placing distance on its origin.

Not only that, but the gravity at the origin would cause it's path to not be a straight line as well so if they are not factoring in the curve caused by gravity when they measure distant objects then there is no telling how far off their measurements are.

If the sun just disapeaerd everything would momentarily move toward the spot where the sun previously existed as space filled the curve all other matter within its effects would get pulled in as space filled the gap. Then we would have a huge mess as all the matter would start reshaping orbits around the next largest curve in the vicinity which would eventually be Jupiter.

[edit on 13-8-2009 by Xeven]

Originally posted by sunny_2008ny
Gravity is said to be real time and instantaneous and it is not at the speed of light. The gravity is also a particle-wave duality and the particle is called as graviton. The graviton has not been proved yet but it is theorized to exist

Absolute gravity is zero. Or a perfect vacuum 0. Everything that exists is related to 0.

The vacuum is what pools on everything. And its also what slows down energy. Because the vacuum will always try to compress everything to = its own power 0.

Energy will always have its highest peak when it leaves and it will start to slow down as soon as it comes in contact with the vacuum.





[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

I want to add this to this post. Its from a post that i started yesterday: Which of the 4 dimensions came first if the 4th is time. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now we all know that the 4th dimension can't be time. The 4th must be energy. Time is changes in energy and matter. Changes created by the absolute vacuum of space.

Here i try to explain how we get a differential in pressure between a planet and the vacuum. The new pressure is just a weaker vacuum then the absolute vacuum because it has energy and matter within it.....


How is a absolute vacuum related to everything and how does it make things work?

If you put a matter the size of earth into a vacuum things will start to happen. Earth is not surrounded by a absolute vacuum. Earth is surrounded by a space with less matter within it, but probably more energy then matter.

But lets say you put a matter the size of Earth into a vacuum. What will happen?

A vacuum is a type of pressure. That is related to the absolute vacuum of 0 pressure.

Pressure will work with the same force in every direction. So it will affect the planet in every direction at once. The pressure of the vacuum will try to compress the planet down to its own force of pressure = the pressure of the vacuum. At this stage the planet won't have a center of gravity it will just have a center point. The center of gravity will come at a later stage.
As the vacuum is compressing the planet. The planet will start to shrink and when it starts to shrink the planet will start to give of different types of energies. Some energies will move at the speed of light or even faster. It all depends on how fast the energy is affected by the vacuum. The faster it is affected by the vacuum the faster it will slow down.

Now since the energy that leaves the planet slows down at different rates the planet will be separated by a differential in pressure compare to the vacuum. Creating a new weaker vacuum with more energy and matter between the planet and the original vacuum. Now when we get this new atmosphere of vacuum the top layers of the planet will start to gain weight.

This weight will press on the layers underneath them and so on all the way to the center of the planet. Now this weight is probably going to reach the center at different times. The weight would probably be uneven all a round the planet as well. So the planet will probably start to rotate by falling towards where it is heaviest or has most mass. And as it roles over an starts to rotate the weight will find the center of gravity.

When the weight meet at the center you will get a new source of energy "Heat". The heat will be gradually produced downwards because of the weight from the top down. Now if the pressure is Higher then the pressure that made the matter. The matter will change dimension from a solid state to a softer state and expand out wards in every direction, but it will always take the easiest way first. Now since this pressure is equal to the mass of the whole planet and even higher then the vacuum. The heat will also travel up to wards the surface of the planet because that's where the pressure is less and closer to the vacuum. So the heat will also heat every layer on its way up to the surface. And this heat will affect the matter with less pressure at the top and create a new energy to the already existing atmosphere. And this would probably add more weight on the center of gravity.


EDIT: because i gave the wrong link to my post.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Simple answer (IMO) - the Earth will fly off instantly, until 'grabbed' by the next gravity well.

I believe that mass does NOT create gravity or theoretical gravitons, instead gravity permeates space-time at superliminal speeds and is a galactic plasma pressure wave. This wave then becomes blocked by stars so the planets in the shadow aren't pushed as much, so spiral inwards.

In summary, gravity is a wave created from neutrino emission from black holes that pushes from above. Mass does NOT create gravity that 'pulls', that's just nonsense.

Originally posted by PrisonerOfSociety
Simple answer (IMO) - the Earth will fly off instantly, until 'grabbed' by the next gravity well.

I believe that mass does NOT create gravity or theoretical gravitons, instead gravity permeates space-time at superliminal speeds and is a galactic plasma pressure wave. This wave then becomes blocked by stars so the planets in the shadow aren't pushed as much, so spiral inwards.

In summary, gravity is a wave created from neutrino emission from black holes that pushes from above. Mass does NOT create gravity that 'pulls', that's just nonsense.

Earth is already grabbed by the next gravity well. If the sun stopped existing the initial reaction of the space around it would be to fill the gap left by the sun. Since the warp of space is gravity around a mass then everything in that effected space would be momentarily drawn in with the space to that gap.

Depending on the strength of the pull from the disappearing sun and its interaction with other massive bodies previously under the influence of the suns curvature, all mass would get a bounce toward that gap. You would have to factor in earths momentum, the gravity effects from other massive bodies and that push toward the suns previous location and direction to figure out what line the Earth would follow. Some objects may be moving with enough momentum to escape the remaining gravity in the system. Much of it would continue to orbit Jupiter after some serious collisions and other crazy orbital exchanges.

We would need ALL the info and put it in a computer with some serious algorithms to figure it all out.

Actually, from the literature gravity propogates at c. Whatever c is for that frequency. The higher the frequency, the higher the speed of c. In the ultra cosmic range gravity propogates a trillion times faster than at the range of visible light. All gravity originates from the totality of the mass of the universe. Two words:

radiation pressure.

This is correct:

Originally posted by mnemeth1
Gravity must propagate at a speed faster than light or the Earth would not stay in its orbit around the Sun.

Einstein was wrong.

See Dr. Van Flandern's article here.
[as published in Physics Letters A 250:1-11 (1998)]

Plasma cosmology has the answers.


[edit on 28-7-2009 by mnemeth1]

gravity must propagate faster than light if black holes exist. If it did not the light would escape before gravity had an effect on it. as light doesnt slow down in a vacuum even passing light would show if this was true. But that does leave the question does super massive gravity act differently than the far lesser gravity of say the sun

[edit on 17-10-2009 by conspiracyrus]

As a thought, there must be some simple way of testing this. If it can be shown a high freq. carrier of information will reach its destination quicker than a low freq. carrier, then we would be onto something.

Has this ever been done?

Edit to add these experiments are not easy. I think the answer lies in whether we can find if light has mass.

www.weburbia.com...

[edit on 10/18/2009 by Matyas]

Spiral harmonics of "spin" would indicate that (bear with me here) including the basic concept that "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" that a "blackhole" is the side-on appearance of a pulsar, hence the visible streams of matter that are at right angles to the "blackhole".

As spin speed of quantum matter increases, an orbit shall decrease creating a paradox whereby the quantum matter becomes "lighter", not compressed. A side effect is that "coldness" can be induced by the reduced orbits shedding mass/energy. Which explains why "White light" has a constant speed "C" and as of last week it is provable that higher/lower frequencies have different speeds. Eg; gamma/X-Ray are slower than "white" light due to the larger spin orbit of the photon frequency. I saw a quote yesterday of a 4 min time lag from the sun in comparison to "white" light.

As spin speed of quantum matter decreases, an orbit shall increase creating a paradox whereby the quantum matter becomes "heavier", compressed and producing
heat"

Which explains why "blackholes" are just a universal "recycling bin" that phase shifts incoming coherent matter into outgoing light that is at right angles to the "Omega Point" of the "Event Horizon".

This is a 4th dimensional transition, easily proved as the Blackhole/Pulsar "can be seen" as a doughnut (blackhole) with a Pulsar (right angle phase shift) which emits visible light as a stream of matter at 90 degrees.

The "spin" of the Pulsar/Blackhole uses magnetic torque to "equalise" energy input/output.

HADES

"As above, So is below"

I didn't read the rest of the posts so I don't know if this question has been answered, but here's your answer from an engineering student with electromagnetic physics under his belt:

No. Gravity does not propagate faster than the speed of light. It propagates AT the speed of light. Why? Well, the speed of light is the fastest information can travel. Gravity in reality is nothing more than information. There is NO SUCH THING as gravitons.

Let me put it to you this way. Gravity just is and that's all there is to it. If the sun were to vanish, we'd have 8 minutes of gravity left until we started floating off into space.

Originally posted by seataka
This is correct:

Originally posted by mnemeth1
Gravity must propagate at a speed faster than light or the Earth would not stay in its orbit around the Sun.

Einstein was wrong.

See Dr. Van Flandern's article here.
[as published in Physics Letters A 250:1-11 (1998)]

Plasma cosmology has the answers.


[edit on 28-7-2009 by mnemeth1]

I simply do not believe this.

Why? BECAUSE NOTHING TRAVELS FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT!

Information cannot travel faster than light. And therefore gravity cannot "travel" faster than it.

If that article were true it would turn the world as we know upside down on it's head.

It's simply not true.

And another thing, quantum mechanics is nothing more than theory. Interesting as though it may be. But just like everything else, you can choose to believe in it or not. Hell, you don't have to believe in gravity f you don't want to. If you have another valid explanation, then please share it with us.

But please, before you do, realize at least one thing: Nothing and I mean NOTHING travels faster than the speed of light.

Wikipedia: "Information propagates to and from a point forming regions defined by a light cone. The spacetime interval AB in the diagram to the right is "time-like" (that is, there is a frame of reference in which event A and event B occur at the same location in space, separated only by their occurring at different times, and if A precedes B in that frame then A precedes B in all frames: there is no frame of reference in which event A and event B occur simultaneously). Thus, it is hypothetically possible for matter (or information) to travel from A to B, so there can be a causal relationship (with A the "cause" and B the "effect"). In other words, c represents the maximum speed at which matter, energy, or information can be transmitted."

alright a couple pf things, to the guy who said, light would exscape a black hole because t wouldn't have time to affect it. I believe you misunderstand. Gravity doesn't have any effect on light itself, It bends the space time in which the light travels. Therefor the light is following the path of least resistance down the vortex.

As for the speed of light being the be all and end all of the question of travel. For the guy who said that information can't travel faster than c is mistaken. He is following traditional views and shows the errors that can occure by blindly accepting what science says as "The laws". "The Laws" of physics are only the current ones, and will probaly soon be changed, when we solve some math issues.
There are "theories" about photons travelling faster than c.

And of course the "new" VSL theories, which aren't all that new, but only now getting the media coverage. Anyways C is just like the path of least resistance. The ohotons travel down the path at that speed because that is its comfort zone. By which i mean at that speed it its where the waves are at their perfect unison. Anyways heres a couple of links.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

www.livescience.com...

And as for the OP's Question, I would think it would depend on the manor in which the sun dissapeared. I.E. If it exploded, supernova, then the gravitational effects might exceed c, we would probaly feel the gravity effects befor we see the light being so close.
If it Imploded, became a black hole, then the gravitational effects would be inversed and we would see the ligth effects and then the gravitational effect would cause us to be pulled in. mainly because the vortex would be formed not at apex.
Now if it vanished, without energetic discharge, then it would be like being caught in the threads of a trampoline when a weight is removed. I think that the speed of light itself would seem to be longer because space time would be rippling therefor causing light to take longer to travel to the earth. So i guess it would depend on the force of the ripple created by the lack of the weight.

But does gravity travel faster than light, it depends on the situation.

Originally posted by Eitimzevinten
reply to post by afoolbyanyothername

 

Newton says yes (perhaps unknowingly), Einstein says no. His argument was that nothing could move faster than the speed of light. In other words, no type of universal information (such as gravity) could be transfered through the universe faster than the speed of light. We have since achieved trans-luminal speed with radio waves/particles (I think) and there's a thread in this very forum somewhere that explains that.

Last point first, you need to actually read that article on faster than light speed instead of the lying headline. The only thing that traveled faster than light was an imaginary point in space. Well I can imagine an imaginary point in space traveling from the sun to the earth in 4 minutes instead of 8 minutes, so that's twice the speed of light, have I achieved travel at twice the speed of light? No of course not. But any conclusion about faster than light travel from that article is equally ridiculous.

I think the thought experiment describing a physically impossible event (the Sun instantaneously disappearing) cannot yield a real answer. Ive seen one answer the earth would continue to feel the gravity for 8 minutes, and another answer that the gravity would disappear the moment the Sun vanished. I don't think either answer can be determined to be correct given the physical impossibility of that particular thought experiment. The Sun might explode, but it won't just vanish completely. If it exploded, the Earth would continue to feel the sun's pre-explosion gravity for 8 minutes.

Maybe come up with thought experiment that could happen in the real physical world, and we can then give you a real answer.

[edit on 19-10-2009 by Arbitrageur]