Obama Wants To Euthanize Americans

reply to post by grover
It is not Obama who should be feared; it is the people who are pulling his chain who are to be feared. They are exactly like the people who pulled Bush's chain (in fact they may be the same). The healthcare plan proposed will not help the poor. We need a better plan in order to help the poor and maintain excellence in Medicine. There is no need to hand our healthcare over to Nurse Ratched like politicos.

reply to post by argentus


I am also having trouble finding the actual section that speaks to anything remotely concerning "Death with Dignity. This is all I can find. Check out section 1233


Edit to remove bad link...will return

[edit on 22-7-2009 by Witness2008]

I have located the actual bill. Section 1233 has little to nothing concerning euthanasia..but it's guidelines would prevent another circus like the Shivo one.

www.govtrack.us...

reply to post by argentus


This thread is like watching someone throw a burning torch into the monkey house. For almost two pages there was no link to the actual bill, so far only you and I bothered to look. So with no evidence what so ever that Obama wants to gas anyone over 65 he's being burned at the proverbial stake.

The natives are restless.

reply to post by grover

And John McCain wouldn't have been owned by the same groups?

When did i state that? That is your problem Grover. Plain as day. You aren't fooling anyone....most here know how biased you are. John McCain would have been no different other than he looks like a corpse and cannot deliver a speech.

If you oppose him fine...I may very well oppose him in the end also...but oppose him based on actual policy differences not a bunch of crap like

Ok....so you agree on all of his policies then? What do you disagree with and why aren't you angry about it?

I would have liked Obama to have opened things up with transparency...instead he's just as secretive as Bush and has had no problem giving more power to the banks and trans national corporations...the SAME entities that CONTROL OUR GOVERNMENT.

Yes there are garbage threads on ATS...there is garbage news everywhere...you just seem to write everything off because of BS news.

Once you start showing why you agree and/or disagree with Obama's policies....and actually look into who is benefitting from his policies....then I may start to believe what you are stating...until then...nope.

I used to be where you were politically...quit clouding your judgement with political bias. You will see things more clearly if you do.

reply to post by Witness2008

So with no evidence what so ever that Obama wants to gas anyone over 65 he's being burned at the proverbial stake.

Of course there isn't and I certainly wasn't stating that there was..like i stated...some of the crap out there overrides the things that are true...and that is a huge problem.

Isn't against ATS's rules to post a topic with a fraudulent/deliberately misleading topic in the Breaking News forums?

Just saying...



Also, it's quite hilarious how easy it is for some of the more 'indoctrinated' members of this site to jump to conclusions before they have even read the information for themselves. There's absolutely nothing in section 1233 that forces people to be Euthanized.

‘(ii) effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual;

‘(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary); and

‘(iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the individual.

‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii)[tcb: also known as "the patient's preferences"] may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may include indications respecting, among other items--

You get riled up over nothing, start making ridiculous claims like 'Obma wants to euthanize Americans', and then expect us to take you seriously when you comment on issues that actually matter. Have any of you heard of the boy who cried wolf?

I'm no more a fan of Obama then I was of Bush, but when you go to such lengths to try and smear the guy it really doesn't help your cause. Try to approach situations with a critical mind, show some moderation (for god's sake), and focus on the things Obama is actually doing that will hurt our country, not ludicrous made-up stories.



EDIT- Props to Witness2008 for actually posting a link to the bill, everyone who has posted in this thread should (or should have) read it.


[edit on 22-7-2009 by drwizardphd]

I guess they will need to add gas chambers to those fema camps...wait they probably thought ahead...

If someone has a terminal illness I thought it added to the economy and GDP through the spending required for it. After all baby boomers tend to have a nice sized nest egg to harvest. This must be for the POOR old people.

I know this doesn't say anything about gassing people, I'm sort of kidding about that (how does that work). It's a slippery slope though, and when you've read about the eugenicists and population control proponents in the intelligentsia, you get a little paranoid.

[edit on 22-7-2009 by CapsFan8]

reply to post by David9176

I never said I agree on all of his policies and elsewhere here I have said so quite clearly and outlined the one's I disagreed with.

I don't back any politician...I have never endorsed any politician though I have damned many.

I have said repeatedly that I have no faith in the Democrats but that I have less faith in the Republicans.

I voted for Obama and as it stands right now I would vote for him again...a year from now I might feel very different but even before the election I was saying that I had no illusions about him...that he was just another politician with all that implies both good and bad.

I am only defending him because I think the right wing rants about him are idiotic.

Like I said oppose him...fine...but do so based on real issues not a bunch of damned foolish threads like this one...or that he is the anti-Christ and nonsense like his birth certificate bullhooey.

reply to post by CapsFan8


pfff... They will just re-implement the death tax. That way they get rid of the rich old folks before they can spend all the cash.

I'm not so sure they will euthanize people just for being too old, but I would imagine that there will be an option to "die with dignity" like they do in Oregon.

I usually know how these things go, there is a bunch of outrage and back and forth about this isn't true and this and that, just to find out it is buried in another section of the bill.

SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION.

(a) Medicare-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 1861 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395x) is amended--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(A) in subsection (s)(2)--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(i) by striking ‘and’ at the end of subparagraph (DD);CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(ii) by adding ‘and’ at the end of subparagraph (EE); andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(iii) by adding at the end the following new subparagraph:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(FF) advance care planning consultation (as defined in subsection (hhh)(1));’; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(B) by adding at the end the following new subsection:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘Advance Care Planning Consultation

‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965).CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(I) the reasons why the development of such an order is beneficial to the individual and the individual’s family and the reasons why such an order should be updated periodically as the health of the individual changes;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(II) the information needed for an individual or legal surrogate to make informed decisions regarding the completion of such an order; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(III) the identification of resources that an individual may use to determine the requirements of the State in which such individual resides so that the treatment wishes of that individual will be carried out if the individual is unable to communicate those wishes, including requirements regarding the designation of a surrogate decisionmaker (also known as a health care proxy).CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(ii) The Secretary shall limit the requirement for explanations under clause (i) to consultations furnished in a State--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(I) in which all legal barriers have been addressed for enabling orders for life sustaining treatment to constitute a set of medical orders respected across all care settings; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(II) that has in effect a program for orders for life sustaining treatment described in clause (iii).CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for a States described in this clause is a program that--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(I) ensures such orders are standardized and uniquely identifiable throughout the State;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(II) distributes or makes accessible such orders to physicians and other health professionals that (acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law) may sign orders for life sustaining treatment;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(III) provides training for health care professionals across the continuum of care about the goals and use of orders for life sustaining treatment; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(IV) is guided by a coalition of stakeholders includes representatives from emergency medical services, emergency department physicians or nurses, state long-term care association, state medical association, state surveyors, agency responsible for senior services, state department of health, state hospital association, home health association, state bar association, and state hospice association.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(2) A practitioner described in this paragraph is--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(A) a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)); andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(B) a nurse practitioner or physician’s assistant who has the authority under State law to sign orders for life sustaining treatments.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(3)(A) An initial preventive physical examination under subsection (WW), including any related discussion during such examination, shall not be considered an advance care planning consultation for purposes of applying the 5-year limitation under paragraph (1).CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(B) An advance care planning consultation with respect to an individual may be conducted more frequently than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(4) A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ‘order regarding life sustaining treatment’ means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(i) is signed and dated by a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care professional (as specified by the Secretary and who is acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law in signing such an order, including a nurse practitioner or physician assistant) and is in a form that permits it to stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(ii) effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary); andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the individual.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may include indications respecting, among other items--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac or pulmonary problems;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(ii) the individual’s desire regarding transfer to a hospital or remaining at the current care setting;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(iii) the use of antibiotics; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(iv) the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration.’.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(2) PAYMENT- Section 1848(j)(3) of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w-4(j)(3)) is amended by inserting ‘(2)(FF),’ after ‘(2)(EE),’.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(3) FREQUENCY LIMITATION- Section 1862(a) of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1395y(a)) is amended--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(A) in paragraph (1)--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(i) in subparagraph (N), by striking ‘and’ at the end;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(ii) in subparagraph (O) by striking the semicolon at the end and inserting ‘, and’; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(iii) by adding at the end the following new subparagraph:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(P) in the case of advance care planning consultations (as defined in section 1861(hhh)(1)), which are performed more frequently than is covered under such section;’; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(B) in paragraph (7), by striking ‘or (K)’ and inserting ‘(K), or (P)’.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(4) EFFECTIVE DATE- The amendments made by this subsection shall apply to consultations furnished on or after January 1, 2011.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(b) Expansion of Physician Quality Reporting Initiative for End of Life Care-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(1) Physician’S QUALITY REPORTING INITIATIVE- Section 1848(k)(2) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w-4(k)(2)) is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraphs:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(3) Physician’S QUALITY REPORTING INITIATIVE-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(A) IN GENERAL- For purposes of reporting data on quality measures for covered professional services furnished during 2011 and any subsequent year, to the extent that measures are available, the Secretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization, if appropriate. Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life-sustaining treatment.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(B) PROPOSED SET OF MEASURES- The Secretary shall publish in the Federal Register proposed quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that the Secretary determines are described in subparagraph (A) and would be appropriate for eligible professionals to use to submit data to the Secretary. The Secretary shall provide for a period of public comment on such set of measures before finalizing such proposed measures.’.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(c) Inclusion of Information in Medicare & You Handbook-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(1) MEDICARE & YOU HANDBOOK-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(A) IN GENERAL- Not later than 1 year after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall update the online version of the Medicare & You Handbook to include the following:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(i) An explanation of advance care planning and advance directives, including--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(I) living wills;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(II) durable power of attorney;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(III) orders of life-sustaining treatment; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(IV) health care proxies.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(ii) A description of Federal and State resources available to assist individuals and their families with advance care planning and advance directives, including--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(I) available State legal service organizations to assist individuals with advance care planning, including those organizations that receive funding pursuant to the Older Americans Act of 1965 (42 U.S.C. 93001 et seq.);CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(II) website links or addresses for State-specific advance directive forms; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(III) any additional information, as determined by the Secretary.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(B) UPDATE OF PAPER AND SUBSEQUENT VERSIONS- The Secretary shall include the information described in subparagraph (A) in all paper and electronic versions of the Medicare & You Handbook that are published on or after the date that is 1 year after the date of the enactment of this Act.

There. Now everybody that hasn't read it can read it. To me, it's pretty simple. It means 'know what your options are". Ask your health care provider what a living will or health care POA does and doesn't do. Who in the family has the authority to make decisions once you can't. Things like that. Things you need to know if you have an elderly parent or a family member with chronic health problems. Things that most folks don't like to talk about.

Obama Wants To Euthanize Americans .....guess the OP didn't even read the bill. Shame.

reply to post by Hazelnut

I will not speak for other hospitals, but in the hostpital where I work (ICU nurse) we do not just keep people alive "for the money." We follow the wishes of the patient, and the family. Sometimes the family just doesn't want to let go. I have had many long frank discussions with family members, explaining what their loved ones were going through, and the chances of survival with any kind of quality of life. (This was done at the doctor's direction, after he had discussed it with them, or it was initiated by a loved one, who was confuesed and didn't know which way to turn.)

The hospital made a mistake by resusitating you father if he had an advanced directive, but in all fairness to the nurses, their first instinct is to save the patient. If the living will was on the chart, the doctor should have asked a couple of pertinant questions, and then called it. The problem is, the doctors, the nurses, everyone involved are human and they dislike seeing someone under their care die.
Young nurses and doctors are the worse, because they are "gung ho" and haven't seen the suffering that can occur at end of life.
I am a firm believer in DNR's and living wills. It should be the patient, and the family who makes that decision. If they desire input from the doctors and nurses, it should be availabe.

reply to post by Alxandro

First of all, this is NOT euthanasia, that is pure libel. Having worked for nearly five years earlier in life in a retirement/nursing care facility and having been through this process with multiple friends and relatives in the past few years, I applaud this decision.

Why? Many seniors have not or will not willingly designate a power of attorney to a relative or caregiver allowing them to determine when not to prolong care that too often induces great suffering to the patient and wastes resources that should go to patients who can be "cured" or at least significantly helped. Many times there are no close relatives or friends, or ones who are on speaking terms, that can be contacted in an emergency situation, you would be surprised at how common that is. Few things are sadder than watching an old person go to a pauper's grave because no one is there to step forward to claim the body, and this was in a high class home.

Not to mention, this also would prevent doctors from tricking patients into experimental treatments that not only don't work, they may hasten death. Look no further than the plethora of quack cancer treatments, anti-aging drugs, colloidal silver, ozone therapy, and other New Age horsecrap that people have deluded themselves into trying. Coffee enemas and rotted meat to cure cancer, where have I heard those touted before? There is a reason the FDA is cracking down and it is not just to protect pharmeceutical profits, some of that stuff is dangerous. Not so long ago people were buying ephedra at the 7-11 and look how many that killed over a very wide demographic.

Also, not all aging people are mentally competent to make these decisions and these consultations may be the only chance a physician has to spot signs of decreased mental capacity that indicate an underlying disease that is curable or manageable. Not all old people get Medicaid or Medicare, they are among the uninsured like the rest of us and not all old people see a doctor as they should. I'm going through that with a parent right now who won't complete his VA paperwork.

I still dont see how any of this fits remotely the captioning title. THere are but 300 people over there that respect their elders. Everyone else is too busy pissing and moaning because they drive too slow. Frankly My dying request would be to die in battle. I would make them get me a horse, and a hoard of vikinesque blokes with battle axes, shields the whole nine. lead my men into victory and die with a final blow to the head as I fought off would be assailants from the front. That is how I would request in my sanity. Besides. Do you know how GREAT this would be in ridding America of teh AARP???? and letting the Youth of today decide what they want for tomorrow instead of inheriting the mess left behind by these same people? I say Spot On. Congress coudl be cleansed of the morons that have been there for 90 years and the two other blokes what remember Washington and what not.

reply to post by Alxandro


Thank you Alxandro for bringing this to the attention of people who havent read the health care bill.
I for one do NOT want the government dictating my healthcare or whom I have the right to marry among many other things. If anything why dont they just give medicaid to people who need it and leave the rest of us alone. Theres a rat in the wood pile somewhere. Im all for dying with dignity but that should be left to the individual , certainly not a goverment that no one understands. Again thanks for the thread. magantice

this is just an attempt at being responsible.

Look the more I hear about Obama's crazy ideas....the more i think, you know, he wouldn't need to come up with crazy ideas if people lived a little more responsibly. It's the same as the NWO really, everyone wants to call the NWO(assuming there is such a thing) the bad guys, their tryin to save the world from you!!

Look this isn't about euthanizing old people, this about explaining their options as they get old. People are living longer these days, and let's not sugar coat it, they're a burden. They're a burden in every sense of the word. It's best to try and talk to them while they still have something upstairs. See if we can't work out the way they want their final years in the event that they degenerate in one way or another....

These aren't bad ideas(not until they fail) IMO....this is what you have to do in our modern society. Not sayin it's a great idea, but at least someone is trying something. I think anyone who doesn't get that is livin in la la land....

[edit on 23-7-2009 by liquidsmoke206]

Personally, I don't see any reason to keep someone on life support. If it's natural for them to depart this world then let their spirit get on with it. So far as the governments involvement, it's none of their business. The government isn't a big brother. They're looking at the dollar value of the commodity not the spirit. The spirit has incarnated in association with a family not with a government. I say, even the family don't really have the right. Just unplug the life support and see what happens. If the spirit is meant to remain here, it will find a way to continue. If not it will leave. Keeping the corpse alive is hideous.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

Hey, getready (and everyone), how are DNR orders and Living Wills any different?

I mean, it's not as if we're going the route of films like Logan's Run or Soylent Green, is it??

DNR's and living wills are written by the patient. THEY choose.

Not some governemnt bean counter.

Originally posted by ReelView
Personally, I don't see any reason to keep someone on life support. If it's natural for them to depart this world then let their spirit get on with it. So far as the governments involvement, it's none of their business. The government isn't a big brother. They're looking at the dollar value of the commodity not the spirit. The spirit has incarnated in association with a family not with a government. I say, even the family don't really have the right. Just unplug the life support and see what happens. If the spirit is meant to remain here, it will find a way to continue. If not it will leave. Keeping the corpse alive is hideous.

I just hope like hell that you never have a loved one on life support and some government hack comes up to you and says, "Mr. Reelview, your wife/mother/grandfather has been on life support for 15 minutes now. Time to let go. Please sign here. We need our money. And no, we don't validate parking"