Prophecy is neither scientific nor spiritual

No prophetic vision about 9/11? How about this guy below.

BENJAMIN SOLARI PARRAVICINI

www.edicolaweb.net...

"The North-American freedom will loss its light, its torch will light no longer, as well as yesterday did it, and the monument will be hit for twice". (Benjamín Solari Parravicini. 1939)

Bring up the link and check our his prophecies and drawings.

Hey

Behind every prophesy stands a prophet. It simple means that always a human said what will happen or not. And what do we humans? We learn from our "outworld", from our parents and from the "reality" outthere. In the 14th century the people had a other view from the world as we see it now. So the prophesies were different..
Many kind of prophesies exist. Mostly time simple the word "prophesy" is meant.
Its a circle cause when a prophesy is spoken out and really happens, you will never be shure if the prophesy came true CAUSE it was spoken out, or the prophet was a real prophet. Its the circle where everybody must look into the own heart and search for the answer.
If you want to know the true, i found out that the real truth exist only in the own heart. ok. you might not be able to hear it.. there could be many reasons why...but if you try and search for, you might hear it.

See, I had so many visions, and so many came true. but i am already not shure if all will happen like i saw them.
There are many fake prophesies and also fake visions.
Many people want to make money with the prophets, but they are also fake.
cause fact is:

TIME NEVER EXIST INTO A PROPHESY

all prophesies which say: at this or that date this or that will happen.. are fake. simple fake.
Everybody who had ever a vision (and a prophesy is nothing else as written down or spoken out vision a person had..)
would agree with me and say the same.
If you have a vision/prophesy, you will never see the time.

Nia

*oh, and who said that the world will end 2012????
remember: they only said: a time will change.. CHANGE!.. not end..

reply to post by Skyfloating


I think the butterfly-effect theory is over-dramatizing reality in order to make it look less "tangible" and coherent. It's like someone creating an excuse for not being able to direct the future as one desires. Or in other words, whoever came up with that theory, in my mind, is certainly not someone with enough personal power to reprogram the program.

The message I get from that theory is: Oh well, the world is totally chaotic and the more you try to organize it, the more chaotic it will be. I guess I can't do anything about it. And neither can you. But you ought to be careful with what you do, even though every single act will bounce of as something bigger. Simplifying it: "Continue to be enslaved".

I personally cannot validate any prophecy either from the Bible or otherwise. I have had perfect prophecy however when I was younger. This isn't meant to start an argument but only an observation of my experience. I had a somewhat lengthy dream which was one of the most lucid and vivid dreams I have ever had. For a while after I had woken up and ate breakfast I couldn't shake the dream. Then as I arrived at work and reached out to open the door my dream experience began verbatim. If felt like I was in a movie and couldn't change a single thing until it played out. Everything that I said and did I felt like an observer in. It was perfect, exactly the same as my dream.

And. This is why I come to these sites. No, not because of the prophecy because I haven't seen one right yet. I'm looking for subtle changes in peoples emotional quality. Like what I saw prior to the tsunami event. NOBODY called it but I noticed an agitated emotional prelude that had caught my eye and as I sat up that night scanning the fringe forums I saw the first reports of massive flooding coming in on the AP (associated press) wire. A mistake I made was telling some people later what I had been looking for and then there was an emotional prelude to every damn prediction somebody made. You have to surf the subconscious. Not so worried about that here. Not too many good tuning forks of humanity to observe.

The very house I rent now I saw in a vivid and lucid dream. I did not consciously pick the house. It was more accidental and wasn't the place I had planned on occupying. Nonetheless here I am awaiting the events of my dreams to play out. Something monumental is coming and I'm now in the place I'm supposed to be for it. It may be personal for all I know but I don't think so.

This post concerns me. I have read everyone's view yet still am unsure what to think.

Edit - If it is not scientific or spiritual, how would you define it? You seem not to believe at all.

[edit on 21-7-2009 by djr33222]

reply to post by Geladinhu



Yeah. Chaos-Theory could be an exaggeration, another variation of fatalist ideology.

Originally posted by djr33222
This post concerns me. I have read everyone's view yet still am unsure what to think.

Edit - If it is not scientific or spiritual, how would you define it? You seem not to believe at all.

How about checking out the last 200 opening posts in this Forum, and then forming a conclusion...

I like this quote by terrence mckenna,course there are many other countries this could apply to.

“The apocalypse is not something which is coming. The apocalypse has arrived in major portions of the planet and it's only because we live within a bubble of incredible privilege and social insulation that we still have the luxury of anticipating the apocalypse. If you go to Bosnia or Somalia or Peru or much of the third-world then it appears that the apocalypse has already arrived.”

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Prophecy, especially Doom Prophecy is neither scientific nor a spiritual. Its trashy Tabloid-ism.

Whats so horrific about this is that its a no-brainer: For the last few thousand years, up to the last decades, prophecies have routinely failed to come true...and real disasters such as 9/11 are routinely failed to be predicted.

Dont believe it? Look at the last 1000 threads in this Forum. "Clinton is the Anti-Christ". "Bush is the Anti-Christ". "Obama is the Anti-Christ". No mention of 9/11. Next up is 2012 because people were dissappointed that the world did not end in the year 2000.

Prophecy is not only totally invalid from a scientific viewpoint, but even from a metaphysical/spiritual viewpoint. I mention this because many think that prophecy has something to do with a "spiritual talent", with pre-cognition, with clairvoyance or some such paranormal event. But as any half-decent metaphysical teaching will point out...

a) The Future is not fixed
b) The very act of prediction, changes what will happen

and for the more advanced metaphysical thinkers: Linear time doesnt even exist in the first place.

95% of all prophecy is tabloid-ish hysteria, part of the fear-circus required to sell papers, books, magazines, websites. 5% of it may be a genuine prediction or vision of a probability...but the further out in the future one predicts, the less probable that something becomes. Thats because every single decision any of the 6 Billion humans on this planet makes, changes the course of the Future entirely.

The purpose of making this post is to deny ignorance, despite the unpopularity of the opinion stated here.

If you feel the urge to attack or challenge my post, I dont mind. I can handle it.
But can you handle the truth?

Hi Sky/

Well,I wouldn't go as far as saying that...

Prophecy, especially Doom Prophecy is neither scientific nor a spiritual. Its trashy Tabloid-ism.

I would rather say that the very MEDIA itself is more likened to that of trashy tabloid-ism!
It's neither scientific nor is it spiritual!
The media is mainly wordly entertainment with no purpose whatsover...unless it's purpose is to educate and not eradicate,then I'm all for it!

Whats so horrific about this is that its a no-brainer: For the last few thousand years, up to the last decades, prophecies have routinely failed to come true...and real disasters such as 9/11 are routinely failed to be predicted.

Actually,what is 'horrific' and you could say scary,is that the Bible Old Testament is proof that Prophecy can come true!
As for the many other prophecies,there ARE many proofs of them coming to be,word for word!
Where are your sources of information from?
Obviously,if you are looking and reading the wrong prophecies,then of-course they will fail you... the famous Nostradamus and Edgar Casey and the likes,are a few examples of being not Gods Word!

Dont believe it? Look at the last 1000 threads in this Forum. "Clinton is the Anti-Christ". "Bush is the Anti-Christ". "Obama is the Anti-Christ". No mention of 9/11. Next up is 2012 because people were dissappointed that the world did not end in the year 2000.

I don't believe it!

Why read prophecies in a conspiracy forum, especially when the forum is mainly of Unbelievers of God?
Without Faith,then how can anything be looked at and believed!
Those prophecies you speak of being that of 'Clinton' and 'Bush' and so forth, are not Gods word, but that of proud individuals who believe that they are Gods chosen...this is why they fail...Humility plays a big role in who God chooses to reveal His true prophecy to...sometimes,it has been revealed to unbelievers so they can believe in God...(Need to get back on this one..Old Testament?)
As for the 2012, again this is not Biblical Prophecy and therefore I do not see this to be A true Prophetic word of God....though 'Signs' are definite indicators as to what is expected to happen.
I guess if you look at prophecy without it being the Word of God, then yes, many ,many have indeed failed or come to be,because they were not Prophecy in the sense being from God.

Prophecy is not only totally invalid from a scientific viewpoint, but even from a metaphysical/spiritual viewpoint. I mention this because many think that prophecy has something to do with a "spiritual talent", with pre-cognition, with clairvoyance or some such paranormal event. But as any half-decent metaphysical teaching will point out...
a) The Future is not fixed
b) The very act of prediction, changes what will happen

Prophecy from a Scientific point of view?
Wow, science has actually lost here by far,science NEEDS all the elements of what the WORLD has to offer, without it, Science is NOTHING!
eg/Electricity !
Science may know alot, but as to explain them, they too only offer theories to many questions as to the many why's and How's!
Prophecy IS very VALID in the Spiritual sense,The Bible is the Most proof of that!
a/Correct and I also agree with you on this, the Future is not fixed,because man based on Free will can change this!
b/Again,refer to my answer above!

Prophecies that indeed come from the Word of God do happen and HAVE happened as told...being that PROPHECY should not have DATES FIXED to them!
Gods chosen Prophets from the Old Testament spoke of a Messiah coming,a Saviour for the WHOLE world....many Prophets of the Old Testament PROPHESIED with perfect precision of the coming Messiah Jesus Christ!
"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing
but He revealeth His secret unto His servants,
the Prophets." (Amos 3, 7)
Although Science cannot prove this, they ALSO cannot DIS-PROVE such claims!

95% of all prophecy is tabloid-ish hysteria, part of the fear-circus required to sell papers, books, magazines, websites. 5% of it may be a genuine prediction or vision of a probability...but the further out in the future one predicts, the less probable that something becomes. Thats because every single decision any of the 6 Billion humans on this planet makes, changes the course of the Future entirely.

Well, prophecy is FREELY given if it the WORD of God...and those that choose to listen, do so without having to fork out any money!
Again, prophecy is not set upon any given dates,this is where in the Bible,and Gods Prophets speak of a 'sign', meaning that when the TIME is right, then all prophesied,will perfectly manifest itself.
People change all the time, but God has not changed as He is not within our Time frame ...As Told by D'Arcy W.Thompson ~Aristotle's Nature Science~
Quote from the above link~''It told of how in the beginning the earth was without form and void. It sought to trace all things back to the Infinite, το απειρον [to apeiron]--to That which knows no bounds of space or time but is before all worlds, and to whose bosom again all things, all worlds, return.''
Sorry, I seem to go off subject!

Prophecy is Spiritual in a sense that it profits our SOULS and not merely some wording put together for gossip or non meaning!
If you look today at todays so called Prophets and their meanings, you will be able to distinguish, what is a true prophecy and what is NOT!
Prophecy comes from the Word Prophet,in Greek to mean 'fore-tell' to 'announce'!
So,if one is prophesieing in the name of God, one is speaking Gods Word...not ALL who profess in the name of the Lord is necessarily from the Word of God.
Prophecies are not set in time,but within 'SIGNS' to watch out for.
And since people can change, and they do,the SIGNS also change..
eg/A person may be unfit for obvious reasons that he/she does not care about exercise or healthy eating,therefore all the SIGNS point to their suffering because of it.
If the person changes their outlook toward a healthier lifestyle, then the SIGNS point to a better outlook.
Am I making sense?

The purpose of making this post is to deny ignorance, despite the unpopularity of the opinion stated here. If you feel the urge to attack or challenge my post, I dont mind. I can handle it. But can you handle the truth?

Well,I sort of agree that to 'Deny Ignorance' on certain subjects may be for one's own good,
but when one is told to 'DENY Ignorance' of that which may be of significance or better still,beneficial of one's being,or soul,is likened to that of 'denial of TRUTH'.
The truth is that we all DIE and what good can come of Denying and Ignoring death if one is Ignorant of it in the first place?
If we are faced with DEATH,what good can come of it if we are THEN to begin to believe?
What good did it do us to 'Deny Ignorance'?
If on the other hand we are faced and prepared for DEATH,we can assuredly say that we weren't ignorant or in denial and now face the choices we made.
Can we assuredly say that we can handle the Truth?
Whether we believe or not in prophecy, we shall ALL face the future of which we choose,based on our decisions in life.
For the future is for everyone....believers and non believers...
the Future is/can be a few seconds after to a few years or so later...it is still the future.
Well,I hope what I said made sense,and I assure you it was not an attack or a challenge, but that which Science and Spiritual,both attest to DEATH being a fact!
One should truly ask oneself 'why are humans' so pre-occupied with prophecy and the end of times?
Yes, even those that believe they are not, they are lying only to themselves!
If God Created us,
and breathed His Spirit into us,
then is it not that the Spirit(Soul)seeks it's maker?

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by Skyfloating


Personal precognition, foreboding, selffullfilling-prophecy - personally, I believe all that stuff is valid, because on a one-person-level, things are more predictable. Thats something different than making doom-prophecies for all of humanity...

Not only valid, but completely normal and part of the human capabilities. There are so many examples of intuition and "gut feeling" being valid experiences that we are left with only two choices: admit that humans are capable of so much more, or just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist.

Great thread, Skyfloating. Well rationalized. True philosophy.

Originally posted by Apollumi

"The North-American freedom will loss its light, its torch will light no longer, as well as yesterday did it, and the monument will be hit for twice". (Benjamín Solari Parravicini. 1939)

Thats interesting enough. Not conclusive, but interesting.

Originally posted by helen670
[
If God Created us,
and breathed His Spirit into us,
then is it not that the Spirit(Soul)seeks it's maker?

Certainly. But I´ll do it with something more worthwhile than "end times prophecy".

Inbefore "Only God can make accurate prophecies" (Oh yes, the born agains will be raming the doors open just shout their quotes and prove you wrong, before long)

I hate to be 'that guy' but what the heck.



reply to post by Skyfloating


Interesting thread. I agree on some parts and disagree on others. Although I am a Christian who studies and keeps a close eye on Biblical prophecy, I do get tired of the constant flood of doomsday prophecies from those selling products, those who have issued predictions that resulted in failure but keep issuing predictions, or the predictions that are so outlandish you just 'know' they are false.

I also grow weary on date setters who base their calculations on assumption.

Example: 'Date X' will be a turning point for humanity (assumption), and on 'Date Y' [this] event will happen which means [this] (assumption), therefore 'Z' is going to happen without a doubt (assumption)!

Those kind of prophecies really irk me because they base their final assumption on a chain of other assumptions. I don't understand why people don't see past them.

However, I am an addict of Biblical prophecy because I can literally have my Bible open while watching the news and keep a mental checklist of things being fulfilled.

Not 100% related but something another member and I worked on and I find it interesting:

www.youtube.com...



I'm surprised to read this, though:

Prophecy is not only totally invalid from a scientific viewpoint

This is true but I'm sure we all know science can only take us so far and is not the answer to everything.

I do believe prophecy can be spiritual, though. It really depends on the source. I believe some who offer predictions are truly inspired by the spiritual realm then we have others who base their predictions on the assumption method above or are completely talking out their behinds.

Those are the kind I despise.

In the end: I strongly suggest not dismissing it all but using wisdom to discern the possible from the fraudulent. Ask yourself what is the source? What method are they using to come to their predictive conclusion? What is their track record? What are they selling? Etc. Or any other 'filter' questions you can come up with.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Hmm, good answer!
Prophecy is the least of what God is, and I quite agree with you!
Unfortunately, many want MIRACLES and SIGNS and because of this, many seek God in Prophecy.
We have true prophecy that can lead to God, but we also have DECEPTIVE prophecies by false prophets and this leads to many losing their faith.
One example is the alien claims of the many posts started by alien wanabees(sorry,its late)making up post deliberately or very confused as to what they are?
God is Love and Love is rarely seen today.

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by helen670
Prophecy is the least of what God is, and I quite agree with you!

I have to humbly disagree with that. I can't remember the specific statistics but something like 25% of the Bible is prophetic in nature.

We also see God uses prophecy as a way to validate Himself to us and challenges others to use this method:

I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you.

Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come— yes, let him foretell what will come.

Isaiah 42:8-9; 44:7.

Then in the NT we see Jesus getting angry with the Pharisees for looking for 'a sign.' By that, they were asking for Jesus to perform miracles to prove Himself to them. We can clearly see Jesus was not talking about prophetic signs because he chastised them for not realizing the time they were in that was foretold:

1The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. He replied, "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.

Matthew 16:1-4

Jesus was angry with them for not knowing the time of His arrival that was prophesied to the year by Daniel centuries before:

www.thedevineevidence.com...

Finally, Jesus admonishes believers to look for the signs that are to accompany His Second Coming and tells us to 'keep watch.'

So I do believe prophecy is of a high importance. It's not all that God is but it is a huge part of His revelation to us.

Originally posted by AshleyD
However, I am an addict of Biblical prophecy because I can literally have my Bible open while watching the news and keep a mental checklist of things being fulfilled.

Doesn't this end-times mindset derive from one book and one book only: The Book of Revelations? Am I correct in thinking that this mindset is found in no other book of the Bible? Im asking because you know the Bible better than I do.

This is true but I'm sure we all know science can only take us so far and is not the answer to everything.

Of course.

Or any other 'filter' questions you can come up with.

Alright. Giving prophets a fair and open mind. But then the question comes up: What good could prophecy be in the first place?

reply to post by AshleyD


What else comes to mind is that the Bible also mentions false prophets. Does the Bible contain a passage on how to tell the difference? (Between false and true prophets)

[edit on 22-7-2009 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating

Doesn't this end-times mindset derive from one book and one book only: The Book of Revelations? Am I correct in thinking that this mindset is found in no other book of the Bible? Im asking because you know the Bible better than I do.

Revelation puts it all together and devotes almost 100% of its content to end times prophecies but it is one of many. The end times are prophesied all the way back in the Old Testament.

The Jewish Tanakh (or the Christian Old Testament) is even grouped into three separate parts: The Torah, The Writings, and the Prophets (both major and minor). A good chunk of the OT is actually prophetic in nature and focused on the end times.

Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Joel, Amos, Malachi, Daniel, Zechariah, Malachi, etc. There are several more.

Then in the NT we have end times prophecies scattered throughout. Revelation is dedicated to it but Jesus issues several end times sermons through the Gospels and the apostles mention them in the Epistles.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, I & II Thessalonians, II Peter, etc.

So we find end time prophecies scattered around in the majority of the Biblical books although Revelation is the most famous and the most concentrated. But the tribulation is prophesied as far back as the OT. That is also when we see the first prophecies of the AC like in the OT books of Daniel and Zechariah. The AC, tribulation, and Armageddon prophecies didn't begin with Christianity but are found in the Jewish texts.

That is even one of the things that confused those in the time of Jesus. They thought He was ushering in the end times. They didn't realize He'd first come as the 'good Shepherd' and the 'Suffering servant.' That's also why in his sermon in Matthew 24 He basically tells people not to panic- it's not the end and these things must happen. It's because those coming out of the OT era were aware of the prophecies from their scriptures and thought the end times were then.

Alright. Giving prophets a fair and open mind. But then the question comes up: What good could prophecy be in the first place?

In my opinion, it depends on the source. Let's assume it's a good, valid prophecy from a truly inspired person (and not just a quack trying to make a quick buck). Good, valid prophecy could warn people of future events so they can prepare. In a Biblical sense when it comes to end times prophecy, we're given prophecy for a few of reasons:

1). To validate God's identity to us.
2). To keep us from being surprised when we see the horrific things coming to pass.
3). To give us hope because we are given a time frame as to how long it will last when the you-know-what really hits the fan (Birth Pangs: The length of one generation, The trib: 7 years).
4). To guard us against the unnamed deception Jesus spoke of that would take place.

As for individual claimed prophets, I can't really answer that because I don't pay much attention to them. I don't feel they have validated themselves or their ability and they fail time after time.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
What else comes to mind is that the Bible also mentions false prophets. Does the Bible contain a passage on how to tell the difference? (Between false and true prophets)

Yes, it's mentioned in the OT. The test for prophets was harsh: 100% accuracy. False prophets could actually face death or ostracizing. It was taken very seriously to ensure accuracy. There is even a passage that states if someone issues a false prophecy, to not listen a thing they said after that. That was to protect the people from those who used false prophecy to gain control over the people.

Although that is repeated frequently, another test is often missed. They were required to give several 'short term' prophecies that would be fulfilled in the life time of the witnesses. Once those came true, their long term prophecies were given credence.

For instance, we see Daniel prophesies things that pertained directly to the current Babylonian King, Nebuchadnezzar. Once those came to pass in the life time of the witnesses, his further prophecies for the coming Messiah, the tribulation/Antichrist, and the succession of world empires (all far off), were taken seriously.

Or Isaiah who made prophecies against Assyria and the succession of kings or Jermiah who prophesied the Babylonian captivity that took place during his lifetime. Or Ezekiel who prophesied how long the captivity would last.

Once those short term prophecies came to pass, their gift of prophecy was validated for the long term.

Even at the beginning of the NT book Revelation we see something concealed. John gave prophecies to the individual churches that existed at the time which also had a dual prophetic meaning for the church era.

Jesus did the same by prophesying the downfall of the temple and Jerusalem that was fulfilled exactly as He said it would be. Since His short term prophecies were validated, Christians give credence to His long term prophecies.

Etc., etc. We see a repeated pattern of short term prophecies made in the book that were fulfilled shortly after and other segments of the book contain the prophecies that would be fulfilled later or in the end times.

This prevented want-to-be prophets from claiming something would occur centuries away (which of course couldn't be debunked any time soon). They had to prove the short term in order to have their long term claims be taken seriously. This also helped guard against corruption or scaremongers who would claim to have a vision from God and commanded the people to do a certain thing (when, in reality, they didn't have the gift at all).

[edit on 7/22/2009 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD


Hi Ashley/
Prophecy foretold the coming of a Messiah,A Saviour for the WHOLE world.
As it was foretold by many prophets of the Old, it happened, but not many believed not in Him.
Why did they not believe in Jesus Christ?
Did not Jesus Christ fulfill all the Old Testament prophets prophesy?
Of course He did.
People will look for an OUTWARD sign to be fullfilled,without an inner faith in God,then all the prophecies are void to them.
People search for prophecies of which they wish to be fullfilled,they see what they want to see and not what God is telling His followers to do as He also has done...
If prophecy was alone proof that God has fullfilled all, then why do not the whole world believe in Him,that came?
The Old Testament is proof enough , so why do not the whole world believe?
First we must have faith and then all else will be revealed...without faith,no matter what is told it will go astray.


ICXC NIKA
helen


EDIT...Added Brief Overview~Historical view of the Old testament

[edit on 7/23/2009 by helen670]