Sovereignty - Does it have meaning to you?

Lately I have argued with the types on ATS that see coming, a New World Order.

This is great and all, but did you really think that Capitalism was the final stop in human evolution?

We are enslaved, no matter who is in command. Believe me, things would be just as bad if McLame had won presidency. Obama was handed a broken ship, not necessarily a sinking one.

As far as evolution goes, is capitalism the final one, as far as humans can go? Somehow I seriously doubt it. I doubt that country lines are the final evolution as well. As far as power goes, everyone wants to be in control. Border lines to me, only makes it possible for leaders to sick us on one another, when otherwise we might realize we are all the same.

A one World Order sounds scary, only because it threatens your sovereignty, right?

Without sovereignty we may come together as a people -- The way those REALLY in power may wish. I believe they might want rid of those that would go against them -- The greedy, the selfish.

I will accept any questions in this thread. As far as the 2nd amendment, I am heavily PRO. Abortion, PRO. I am for freedom to do as we wish. But some of you might still call me a communist.

Can you see the rest of humanity, suffering, instead of being worthy of life, like we are? Is Capitalism the best we can do for humanity?

[edit on 20-7-2009 by LeeannaHolland]

Sovereign- to be in control of your own efforts and destiny is what it means to be free. In the course of human events man has learned he is best governed when in the smallest group. The frist group to develop rules is the family, then the local community, then region, then country. These are concentric cirles that radiate from the individual. The closer the circle is to the person the more he can affect change and control within it. For example it is much easier to inform and persuade your city council than it is Congress.

But on the other side- What comes INTO the center of the circle must respect the work the smaller groups have already established. This is where sovereignty come in. The national government should not come inward and tell the city council what it can or can not do...unless it affects previously agreed upon guidelines (aka the constitution). A World court or government should not come inward to tell a nation how it must do things...because the nation has the right to decide for itself in its sovereignty. (Just as Maple City cannot tell Apple City-you can not have restaruants open past 8pm) This is sovereignty. It works on the smallest level too. A government can not come in and tell the family how they must be. It is up to the family to decide for them selves, how many children they will have, what religion they will have, how they will educate their children, what they will eat, if they will excercise, how they will spend their money.

Once someone from the outer rings starts imposing it will on the man in the center...the inner rings disappear. At that point the individual man in the center loses his ability to affect change...because he has become too small against an entity that has become too large.

Capitalism works because it works in the smallest ring, and can grow. Socialism works from the outer ring inward and kills the inner rings.

Agreed. I'm not for a few people playing God with a multitude as if we are just pawns who can be disposed of. What makes one human being more important then another in terms of the value of life.

Originally posted by prepare4it777
Agreed. I'm not for a few people playing God with a multitude as if we are just pawns who can be disposed of. What makes one human being more important then another in terms of the value of life.

This is exactly what I am getting at. What makes someone in England worth more, than say, someone in Africa? What makes a human life in the USA worth more than the life of a human in Venezuela?

What good are borders, if they only allow for war and mistreatment of a people.

reply to post by LeeannaHolland


When you go home at the end of the day, do you have a family or intimate group of persons or a special person with whom you live? Do you keep you home or room or space the way YOU like it? If so your border of your life is your home. It is the line that people must not cross in a civilized society, unless they are invited, of course.

Borders are very important. A teacher or parent learns this very quickly. When we are civilized (able to live together in an orderly and manigable way) we work within our system of boundaries. The smallest most intimate group is the most important.

How arrogant to say your way of life is better than someone living is a village on another continent. The people living in the villages are doing it their way. You may be surprised to know that most people living without your modern conveniences are much happier than we are. Who are we to say they must have a life like ours. There are nomads on the outskirts of Afghanistan who life off the milk of their goats...they are perfectly happy and comfortable in their sovereign life.

Without borders we would have no legal standing for self defense. When a bad guy comes into you home in the middle of the night you know he has crossed the boundary and is not following the rules and you need to get away from him or stop him. If you did not have that boundary and people were coming and going all the time...you would not know who the bad guy is would you? It is the same with our national boundaries. We say...this is our land where we are going to live happily ever after...if you want to join us please fill out these papers and get in line...otherwise please respect our borders. It is not that hard to understand.

People in different parts of the world like to govern themselves in different ways.

Do you want to live like the the people in China where you are only allowed one child?
Do you want your child to have coffee at lunch at school every day like they do in Brazil?
Do you want the beaches to be nude like they are in the mediteranian?

Do you want to wear a Burqa?

Maybe you think women should not go out alone like in Saudi Arabia?

So each nation gets to decide their own customs and they do have reason for them That is their choice and you should not impose you will upon them. Go to City Council and tell them what you think there...that is where it matters.

Global governece, Unity, Peace...is not possible on an international scale. It dehumanizes the individual. We have the right to disagree and live accordingly. Unity sounds great as a word...but in action the individual man is reduced to a grain of sand on the beach. He has no power, no freedom. We must be loving and kind and generous in our OWN Neighborhoods. That is how you do it! Act locally! Globalism is an evil among us that must be stopped.

reply to post by LeeannaHolland


If history is to be our guide, the best government is local government.

The states in America were created as sovereign entities. Today, the constitution has been co-opted by fascists and communists in our government. The original intention of the founders was to create competition among the states so people could choose what kind of government they wanted to live under.

The federal government was constituted by the states to serve these purposes:
1. provide for a common defense
2. provide for a common currency of gold coinage
3. ensure all the states played fair with each other

that is it.

With sovereignty comes choice, the freedom to choose.

If you don't like the taxes or government in one state, you can move to another.

The fascists and communists that have usurped our government hate this competition among the states because it inherently prevents the centralization of power and socialism. We know socialist systems always fail and lead to tyranny, so if a state decided to become socialist, all of its productive capacity would eventually be driven out to surrounding states that didn't have such outrageous tax burdens and restrictions on freedom.

Today, we have no where to move too and are consigned to suffer under a tyrannical illegitimate government.





[edit on 20-7-2009 by mnemeth1]

Originally posted by mnemeth1
reply to post by LeeannaHolland

 

If history is to be our guide, the best government is local government.

The states in America were created as sovereign entities. Today, the constitution has been co-opted by fascists and communists in our government. The original intention of the founders was to create competition among the states so people could choose what kind of government they wanted to live under.

The federal government was constituted by the states to serve these purposes:
1. provide for a common defense
2. provide for a common currency of gold coinage
3. ensure all the states played fair with each other

that is it.

With sovereignty comes choice, the freedom to choose.

If you don't like the taxes or government in one state, you can move to another.

The fascists and communists that have usurped our government hate this competition among the states because it inherently prevents the centralization of power and socialism. We know socialist systems always fail and lead to tyranny, so if a state decided to become socialist, all of its productive capacity would eventually be driven out to surrounding states that didn't have such outrageous tax burdens and restrictions on freedom.

Today, we have no where to move too and are consigned to suffer under a tyrannical illegitimate government.





[edit on 20-7-2009 by mnemeth1]

Well that is quite an opinion, and I will go on the record as saying I don't agree with a word of it really. I do have some questions though.

First and foremost, you're saying the federalist system is inherently corrupted by socialists and fascists. Since the federalist sentiment goes back to our nation's founding, would you say that Alexander Hamilton, John Adams, James Madison, John Jay, George Washington, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were socialists or fascists?

Secondly, if every socialist country fails and leads to a tyrant whom would you say are the current tyrants in Canada, India, Portugal, the United Kingdom and France are?

I mean I understand your desire to have a Libertarian utopia, but at least concede the point that you're not fighting some holy war for the founding fathers, you just disagree with the way the country is run, that is fine.

The threats on US sovereignty by "treaties" is one of the biggest threats to our liberty ever.

I do not ever want our sovereignty undermined by foreign interests like the UN. They are 100 times more corrupt than our own leech politicians.

Never trade an ounce of your freedom away to a foreign body or government, they could give a rats ass about you or your rights and freedoms.

The US is one of the few countries (if not the only) where we at least have the illusion of being citizens and not subjects.

We have fought wars, bled, and died to keep our sovereignty. Don't ever give it away!

The world / history has proven that "power corrupts". Idealism seldom works. Communism (idealism) never worked because it became a totalitarian oligarchy. Generally, the Republic form of government is the only form of government that has ever came close to maintaining a free society.


I say no to an oligarchy.



[edit on 20-7-2009 by infolurker]

reply to post by ProjectJimmy

All philosophies of government from the greeks to the romans show how the only good way to govern is on the local level. It is the local people who are represented in the governments. When it gets too big...that is when it fails...aka the Roman Empire...Learn your history.

Personal resposibility gives a man much more dignity than being on the dole of the government. Give a man a fish..you feed him for aday teach a man to fish you feed him for life. Local, self directed government...no overreaching social programs.

Without soveriengty there can be no USA or Canada. Without soveriegnty the world arounds us changes forever.

NEVER EVER SURRENDER OR ALLOW THE ERRADICATION OF THE SOVERIEGNTY OF THE UNITED STATES OR ANY OTHER NATION. THAT IS THE BEGINING OF THE SLIPPERY SLOPE THAT IS DICTATORIAL OPPRESSION AND FACISM.