"Evidence" from the birth certificate conspiracy, my analysis

reply to post by Totakeke


Most Americans are satisfied. The few you say wouldn't believe are just that...a few. Why should the president bow to the demands of a few especially when those few are not stealthy enough to see the truth when it's already there.

The birth certificate is simply a veil to hide the true nature that drives them.

Originally posted by epete22
I just dug through all member profiles that are supporting Obama and i only found 2 that were members before 2009, all others have joined ATS from Feb 2009 until now.

Hmmmm

O.K....you got my attention...who are the two?

I was going to start a thread about this, searched and found this one.I had never heard this before and haven't had time to read the thread but I'm glad I found it.I'll be reading it............edit Well I saw this thread before this is the one where s. Guardian skirts the issues with semantics and misses the point completely!It is not for us to prove he's lying it's up to him to prove he's not.

[edit on 24-7-2009 by genius/idoit]

Originally posted by genius/idoit
Well I saw this thread before this is the one where s. Guardian skirts the issues with semantics and misses the point completely!

Im not concerned about your personal dissatisfaction the president and what he hasnt shown you. The only thing Im concerned about are the incorrect constitutional references and "evidence" presented in favour of the birthers. If your problem with the man is what documents he didnt show you then thats fine, i dont care.

It is not for us to prove he's lying it's up to him to prove he's not.

And he has. He has proven sufficiently under Hawaiian law and vai the constitution his eligible for the presidency. His gone through enough backround checks, short form birth certificate verification and the state confirmed that what he has presented if sufficient enough to prove his birth right.

You fellas on the other hand personally dont feel his proven sufficiently. You also think the mans behind a plot to declare communism and to strip your guns and beer away from you. Your personal dissatisfaction however doesnt reign over the law. Evidence on the other had does. Evidence you are yet to provide.

SG

reply to post by Southern Guardian

You fellas on the other hand personally dont feel his proven sufficiently.

Nope, because he hasn't. Honestly, all he has to do is show his birth certificate. Is that so hard?

You also think the mans behind a plot to declare communism and to strip your guns and beer away from you.

This sentence tells us a lot about your political views. I'd be more inclined to believe you if you didn't make such liberal assumptions like that. Let me tell you we're as stubborn as you are. All we want to know is where he was born and he hasn't provided sufficient evidence. All he's done is release a certificate of live birth that was verified by a questionable website.

Your personal dissatisfaction however doesnt reign over the law. Evidence on the other had does. Evidence you are yet to provide.

Last time I checked we don't have Obama's birth certificate. You think a certificate of live birth counts as evidence? If it did millions of people would be satisfied.

I'll ask again. What's the real reason for this thread? If you're right about this whole thing, why does it matter? Why not just let us right-wing, gun-loving crazies sit and wallow in our "conspiracy theories"? Are you trying to convince us or yourself?

[edit on 25-7-2009 by Totakeke]

Originally posted by Totakeke
Nope, because he hasn't. Honestly

He has, under Hawaii law, provided sufficient proof of his birth right. You are yet to prove otherwise Toto.

all he has to do is show his birth certificate.

Which he has, his short form birth certificate which is sufficient evidence of his birth right. Now you and afew birthers may not find it satisfactory, along with a number of other policies this man has implemented, but that isnt going force him to do anything.

You say it shouldnt be so hard to show his birth certificate. He showed his short form, it got verified by the state and health department, and still the rumors continued. There will always be some issue with this man among the rightwing, regardless. He is not obligated to prove anything further, the elections are over, he is president.

You dont personally accept it, you think personally "you'll be satisfied" if he shows it, that doesnt change the fact there are many out there who hold conspiracies about this man over multiple things. Satisfying a few over what is one of many conspiracies, one of many individuals, is really a moot a the end of the day.

This sentence tells us a lot about your political views.

So you think most birthers dont hold many other conspiracies about him? Dont dislike him for many other reasons?

Throughout this thread Toto you have made attempts to give this indication that somehow him showing this one document "will end most the suspicions". You base this on, well nothing, and over your own personal dissatisfaction.

Releasing a document, to satisfy afew "because you claim so" only for others to continue their harted and conspiracy theorizing is well pointless. This idea from you only shows me that personally you are dissatisfied and you personally want him to stop and meet your demands, to which the implications for everybody else in the nation is impossible. Fortunatly we live in a country where the president doesnt have to satisfy everybody, we have elections for that where the majority dictate their satisfaction as a whole.

Now, im not really concerned "how liberal" you think I am. The only thing I am here to do is argue against the "evidence" cited regarding the birther conspiracy theory. I am neither concerned about your personal dissatisfaction with him not answering to you and afew others. Thats your own personal issue to deal with, nobody elses. Niether is he obligated to show you or anybody else anything further and I commend him for that. We have elections for that sort of thing, and if you found yourself among one of the losers in 2008, best be to deal with it and wait for 2012, or you could come up with some evidence.

SG

Originally posted by Totakeke


Nope, because he hasn't. Honestly, all he has to do is show his birth certificate. Is that so hard?

Ok, I've already gone over this in this thread. You just choose to ignore this.

Obama has provided the only birth certificate he can under Hawaii's medical records system. There is no such thing as a long-form in Hawaii. There are no paper birth certificates in Hawaii. His original paper certificate no longer exists, as several years ago Hawaii transferred all records over to digital mediums.

You can't just keep saying "he won't show his birth certificate" when he already has. It just makes you look stupid. Please tell me you're not stupid.

reply to post by drwizardphd


I think I've asked this before, but I'll ask again. Why hasn't he come forward and explained the situation? Why does he let it keep going?

Originally posted by Totakeke
reply to post by drwizardphd

 

I think I've asked this before, but I'll ask again. Why hasn't he come forward and explained the situation? Why does he let it keep going?

What are you talking about? He already provided his birth certificate. That is literally all he can do.

There is absolutely no "situation" except among the right-wing fringe who actually believe in this asinine theory. All of the evidence points to him being born in Hawaii. There is absolutely nothing more he can do, and nothing more anyone can do until solid evidence to the contrary is provided.

I have a theory regarding why Obama won't release the Certificate of Live Birth:

Obama's mother could not fly late in her pregnancy so decided to have her delivery in Kenya.

Afterwards, to ensure her son's US citizenship she flew to Hawaii, planted a couple birth announcements (that don't mention the hospital), applied for his birth certificate and claimed she had a home birth (at grandma's house). I'd bet anything that the Certificate of Live Birth indicates home birth, which is why no one, including Hawaii officials, can say definitively which hospital he was born in.

That leaves Obama with a conundrum. If people see his birth listed as a home birth, they may put 2 and 2 together. Furthermore, his sister previously claimed he was born in 2 different hospitals, and now he has claimed he was born in a particular hospital as well, so there's no turning back--he can't have anyone seeing that particular bit of information, so no Certificate, sorry.

Like I said, it's just a theory. Personally, I was only interested in resolving this issue when he was still running in the primaries. Once he got the nod, I felt it was too late. I sure as heck didn't want to see an old guy about to croak with a joke as a running mate win.

Originally posted by drwizardphd
Obama has provided the only birth certificate he can under Hawaii's medical records system. There is no such thing as a long-form in Hawaii. There are no paper birth certificates in Hawaii. His original paper certificate no longer exists, as several years ago Hawaii transferred all records over to digital mediums.

It is odd, however, that that bit of information just came to light, just as the issue got legs in the media. Hawaii officials have stated that they have his original documents in their possession, and now this turnaround.

But let's say there isn't a paper trail. What's stopping them from releasing the digital information? That could simply be information reentered into a database that can be produced for all to see.

Having said that, wouldn't it make more sense that by digital they mean scans of the original documents? After all, what would be the point of having a doctor sign a document that was going to be destroyed? It just doesn't add up.

Originally posted by yuefo
I have a theory

Yep... and that pritty much sums up the entire evidence presented by the rightwing fringe.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Excellent thread SG. I felt the rust falling from my activist legs while here.

I have come to a conclusion as to why birthers and tea baggers do and say what they do with such mindless repetition but I will keep that to myself on this thread.

This is one of the better constructed threads I've had the pleasure of reading. S&F

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
He has, under Hawaii law, provided sufficient proof of his birth right. You are yet to prove otherwise Toto.

All he proved is he can post up numerous versions of a colb each one getting more accurate as the faults in the being exposed as a fake get corrected. He has proven the same thing wirh so called fact checking websites that will verify one story and when discrepancies exist they change the story over night like snopes did. So we have PLENTY of reasonable doubt to not trust the accuracy of validity of a COLB requiring it be matched up with his vaulted BC

You say it shouldnt be so hard to show his birth certificate. He showed his short form, it got verified by the state and health department, and still the rumors continued.

No they aren't rumors SG, he really has not done what we asked and what again, is so easy to do. He has only done what he and people like you allowed him to get away with and that is NOT showing his original BC. so you are wrong the only one making rumors is you.

There will always be some issue with this man among the rightwing, regardless. He is not obligated to prove anything further, the elections are over, he is president.

Anything further??? WTF SG he hasn't allowed anyone to look at ANYTHING NOT ONE THING! You keep acting like he has bent over backwards to satisfy fringers when the only thing he has bent over backwards doing is keeping the public from seeing his entire past history, college records, state local official records, grade school records, you name it he has placed armed guards in front of it, sealed it or made it disappear. So quit making this out to be some big deal when what we have originally asked for is what is no big deal, the reasons and excuses you keep using suggesting we will want more if we get this resolved is just an excuse you use to keep from answering as if that is what we have done all along when the fact is we have never got a thing while the efforts made by the obamabots have been nothing but second rate excuses that wouldn't prove him to be a natural born citizen and only A CITIZEN.

The office he stole requires him to be natural born and fukino denied that question she never substantiated it. If you think she did, then post the exact statement that says so because nothing she said is specifically corroborating that and the constitution says it must be a natural born NOT a "suggested" natural born. Personally, I don't give her statement that much credit as suggesting anything at all it was so deliberately vague and ambiguous

Originally posted by yuefo
I have a theory regarding why Obama won't release the Certificate of Live Birth:

Obama's mother could not fly late in her pregnancy so decided to have her delivery in Kenya.

Afterwards, to ensure her son's US citizenship she flew to Hawaii, planted a couple birth announcements (that don't mention the hospital), applied for his birth certificate and claimed she had a home birth (at grandma's house). I'd bet anything that the Certificate of Live Birth indicates home birth, which is why no one, including Hawaii officials, can say definitively which hospital he was born in.

That leaves Obama with a conundrum. If people see his birth listed as a home birth, they may put 2 and 2 together. Furthermore, his sister previously claimed he was born in 2 different hospitals, and now he has claimed he was born in a particular hospital as well, so there's no turning back--he can't have anyone seeing that particular bit of information, so no Certificate, sorry.

Like I said, it's just a theory. Personally, I was only interested in resolving this issue when he was still running in the primaries. Once he got the nod, I felt it was too late. I sure as heck didn't want to see an old guy about to croak with a joke as a running mate win.

Yeah that is exactly what I think happened also, my girlfriend came up with the theory when this issue was just getting started and it made a lot of sense to me. I mean when you think about the timeline and all that, it is much easier to understand than having to believe Obama is just pissed about people asking. Jeez this is a mature full grown man well educated and I hardly see him using the kind of argument for not showing it souther guardian would have us believe he shares with him.

I don't see Obama calling people names and all that childishness, I see him more a victim of circumstances beyond his control at the time and just wants to keep the facts from seeing the light of day.

reply to post by Southern Guardian

I am more apt to believe(and believe is the key word here because their is no "proof" of anything,which leaves this whole subject open to conjecture(obama's fault)this www.freerepublic.com...
In the absence of truth conjecture reigns!(my quote)

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by yuefo
I have a theory

Yep... and that pritty much sums up the entire evidence presented by the rightwing fringe.

FYI: I'm a left-leaning Libertarian who has never, ever, voted Republican. The press and people like you want to paint the issue as racial or right wing. Sorry--for me and thousands or even millions, the issue is about upholding the Constitution.

But let me ask, is that the extent of your rebuttal? Do you have another single-sentence rebuttal to my pointing out the illogic of the claim that additional documentation cannot be produced because the original documents are digitized?

Originally posted by yuefo

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by yuefo
I have a theory

Yep... and that pritty much sums up the entire evidence presented by the rightwing fringe.

FYI: I'm a left-leaning Libertarian who has never, ever, voted Republican.

Then maybe you can show me the entire conspiracy goes beyond "personal theories".

SG

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by yuefo
FYI: I'm a left-leaning Libertarian who has never, ever, voted Republican.

Then maybe you can show me the entire conspiracy goes beyond "personal theories".

SG

I thought I just did in my previous post--you know, about the claim that additional information cannot be obtained because the original documents were digitized. I'm happy to accept a reasonable explanation for why digitizing means no additional information can be released. But until then, I conclude it's a coverup.

Originally posted by yuefo
I thought I just did in my previous post

In the previous post you gave me theories, you didnt prove anything. Thats my point, you dont have evidence, you dont even have any constitutional evidence. All you and the others here have done thus far is to create more questions. Its beyond me that you actually think, by making up constant conspiracies about the man that lack any standing, your going to get more of his documents. Where you came up with this conclusion I dont know.

you know, about the claim that additional information cannot be obtained

Nobody really cares about the opinions of the short form birth certificate because it was verified by the state of Hawaii and the only individuals who marked it fake are the same individuals who hide behind rightwing blogs with absolutely no credentials.

If you want that addition information yuefo your going to have to come up with more than simple personal "theories" and "questions" to get it.

SG