Freemasonry is unChristian

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by getreadyalready
If there were other religions attacking Masonry, then you would likely see the same attitude.

It's been a few years, but I believe there have been a few Muslim fundamentalists and maybe a guy from the Moorish Science Temple who got into it with ATS Masons once. But I agree, more often than not it's fundamentalist Christians who tell us all what our relationships with God are, without regard to their own.

And I'll be the first to say that most (if not all) of the fundamentalist "Christians" that come here deriding freemasonry are at best uninformed....at worst, completely abrasive hate-filled souls with agendas they don't even fully grasp. I believe they are no more Christians than the people who picket the funerals of gays or war veterans. Extremists of all ilks would do well to spend more time in study and prayer rather than speaking/acting.

Then again, wouldn't we all.

reply to post by HardToStarboard

Exactly. And there are those on this board (Masons, mind you) that make statements against the divinity of Christ and state that hell isn't real or Satan isn't real. They don't preface these statements as beliefs, but as though they were hard facts with implications that anyone believing otherwise is somehow naive.

I stand by my original post that there are Masons on the board that deride Christianity (whether subtly or overtly).

I have said I believe some of those things, but I usually preface it with "I believe" or "I don't believe." I can't say I have been 100% effective in qualifying my statements in that way, but I do try to. If I have failed, I apologize, but I also think it is somewhat of a given that things we state are opinions, unless argued otherwise and backed up with facts and sources.

Let's talk about something happy now....like how Dign4it is banned

That is a happy thought!

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
Exactly. And there are those on this board (Masons, mind you) that make statements against the divinity of Christ and state that hell isn't real or Satan isn't real.

Well, considering I was the only Mason on this thread who said that let us stop beating around the bush.

I do 'discount' the divinity of Christ. I did preface that with the caveat that this occured prior to me becoming a Mason. I was raised a Roman Catholic and (here is my opinion, neatly prefaced in brackets) found it to be highly hypocritical, dogmatic and rather ridiculous. If you happen to disagree with me that is fine, I honestly do not want to know what anyone's religion happens to be. I only bring up my personal beliefs when some half-assed retard happens to pop up here and say, 'Hey, you are a Mason and you worship Satan and need to accept Jesus into youy heart otherwise you are going to Hellllllllllllllllllllllllll! Oh, and by the way Satan-lover, they do not serve your favorite beverage there too!'.

I also, as previously stated on numerous occasions, stated that I do not believe in Hell or Satan. If there are people that take offence to my personal opinion on those two aspects of religion, then so be it.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by HardToStarboard

 

Exactly. And there are those on this board (Masons, mind you) that make statements against the divinity of Christ and state that hell isn't real or Satan isn't real. They don't preface these statements as beliefs, but as though they were hard facts with implications that anyone believing otherwise is somehow naive.

I stand by my original post that there are Masons on the board that deride Christianity (whether subtly or overtly).

I have said I believe some of those things, but I usually preface it with "I believe" or "I don't believe." I can't say I have been 100% effective in qualifying my statements in that way, but I do try to. If I have failed, I apologize, but I also think it is somewhat of a given that things we state are opinions, unless argued otherwise and backed up with facts and sources.

Let's talk about something happy now....like how Dign4it is banned

That is a happy thought!

HOLY GUACAMOLY! They banned dign4it?!?
Also: Disturbed!!!
Freemason(s) often enough deride what is instructed to be validated by whomever wishes to entreat.
Such is a charity when delighted is the one who lurks to put forth the allegory.
However, it is no crime against humanity to seek the hell fire lake, nor is it sacriligious to believe less about Chritst.
I have come to know, by accident, that Jesus Christ's Divinity was only manifested in the people he so deisred to save. Thereafter was according to him a reason to know that such divinity was in all of us who sought him out.
EXAMPLE: John The Baptist...

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
Exactly. And there are those on this board (Masons, mind you) that make statements against the divinity of Christ and state that hell isn't real or Satan isn't real.

Well, considering I was the only Mason on this thread who said that let us stop beating around the bush.

I do 'discount' the divinity of Christ. I did preface that with the caveat that this occured prior to me becoming a Mason. I was raised a Roman Catholic and (here is my opinion, neatly prefaced in brackets) found it to be highly hypocritical, dogmatic and rather ridiculous. If you happen to disagree with me that is fine, I honestly do not want to know what anyone's religion happens to be. I only bring up my personal beliefs when some half-assed retard happens to pop up here and say, 'Hey, you are a Mason and you worship Satan and need to accept Jesus into youy heart otherwise you are going to Hellllllllllllllllllllllllll! Oh, and by the way Satan-lover, they do not serve your favorite beverage there too!'.

I also, as previously stated on numerous occasions, stated that I do not believe in Hell or Satan. If there are people that take offence to my personal opinion on those two aspects of religion, then so be it.

I think there's much about Christianity that can be experienced as hypocritical, dogmatic or ridiculous. All of those things involve people. Anything that involves people can be hypocritical, dogmatic, ridiculous or (insert any other descriptor you like). However, the core truths that we Christians hold dear - the divinity of Christ, the truth of God's Word (as difficult as it may be to suss out or accept) and core beliefs of God's plan for salvation (i.e. - Jesus' death, burial and resurrection as propitiation for sin) are not hypocritical, dogmatic or ridiculous.

I, as a mason am always careful to not try and say anything that another person (mason or non-mason) may construe was hurtful toward their belief. As masons are we not to try and hold a higher standard? We are all fighting some sort of battle and when I see comments (or make comments myself) that are designed to deride or be hurtful it's just off-putting.

I think if we look underneath the motives of those that come here railing against masons and telling us we're going to hell we would find motives that are good. They care enough about people to try and do what they see as ultimately helpful. They go about it HORRIBLY awfully though. Why do you or we even bother responding to them? Or if/when we do can we not use a soft answer instead? I guess I'm just weary of feeling that everyone in the world is against everyone else. That's all we seem to see on the news or the internet these days.

My apologies if my words have offended or become too abrasive to be effective. I've spent the last 30+ years as a Christian and for the past 3 years have studied the Catholic faith until enrolling in RCIA this last fall. Myself, my wife and our children all entered the Church this past Easter weekend. My constant goal is to serve God, love Christ with all my heart and help my fellow man in whatever fashion I'm able. I suppose I get testy when others don't see as I do. That's my fault though.

I offer my prayers, paltry as they may be, for you and all men here on ATS that Christ may show us His truth and goodness and whatever hurts we've endured through the people of His church may be forgiven and healed. If Christianity is right, simply believing in Jesus to miss hell is a lousy reason. We should believe in Him because spending an eternity outside his presence and reach would be the greatest human tragedy ever. If Christianity is wrong then you and I have lost nothing.

Be well, brother.

all i can say on this thread topic is
Freemasonry is Unchristian?
not of the very little i know about masons and before i explain my personal view i must clarify a few things
i`m not a Mason
i come from irish catholic decent
the very little i know of masons they are peacefull people who will go out of there way to help individuals in need
now if that makes them Unchristian i would urge you to look at Christianity and get off your high horses
i know of a mason who went above and beyond his duty as a professional to help a Complete Stranger out and did not stop untill this very old man had been looked after
well if that makes this man unchristian well put me down for that then as the original old man in need turned to the christian faith and was shunned (as there was no need for them to help him)
a mason slogged away to make sure this individual was cared for and got what was rightfully his
i take my hat off to that as it showed me that there truly are good people on this planet and i could learn more regardless of what i think or believe i know
and for all the masons out there Thank you on behalf of this same old man who was in need of help for taking the time to look out for and after a fellow human being bless you all

and for people who dont like masons please dont take this post as a pop at you or your belief as its not intended as that
as the saying goes "you must not judge until you walk a mile in the other man’s shoes"

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
I, as a mason am always careful to not try and say anything that another person (mason or non-mason) may construe was hurtful toward their belief. As masons are we not to try and hold a higher standard?

Holding a higher standard does not preclude me from offering my opinion on religion, particularly when it is my own personal viewpoint, on a internet discussion board.

We are all fighting some sort of battle and when I see comments (or make comments myself) that are designed to deride or be hurtful it's just off-putting.

I do not see how my statement that I do not see Christ to be divine is either hurtful or off-putting. I would tend to think that if someone has a strong Christian faith then the comments of one guy from New Jersey, who's sentiments are not aligned with their own, would somehow call into question their own beliefs.

I think if we look underneath the motives of those that come here railing against masons and telling us we're going to hell we would find motives that are good. They care enough about people to try and do what they see as ultimately helpful.

The point is, I do not want their help as I do not find it helpful, frankly I find it disturbing. My religious beliefs were formed long before I became a Mason and are not going to be swayed here, particularly by some of the fundementalist wack-nuts that feel the need to testify to me about my so-called fall from the path of the righteous.

They go about it HORRIBLY awfully though.

I completely agree and it goes a long way into showing what religious fundementalism can do to the addle-brained.

Why do you or we even bother responding to them?

In the relgion aspect I suppose it is to show that not all of us (Masons) have the same religious viewpoint and regardless of their pueling I will not ever see things they way they do.

Or if/when we do can we not use a soft answer instead?

I know I can be acerbic at times (just as can be equally as humorous) however on this thread-which I took the time to re-read from the beginning-I have not been the former and sadly not enough of the latter. Again, my viewpoint on Chirst was obviously my own and had nothing to do with Masonry. I have been posting here long enough that the constant reader of this forum will have gotten that by now and anyone who has recently joined may go back and review my posts and see that I have not wavered on this stance.

I suppose I get testy when others don't see as I do. That's my fault though.

Everyone never will, which I guess, is the point. I have learned through much head-pounding (mostly mine against a wall) that this will always be the case.

I offer my prayers, paltry as they may be...

I will take them as I would if we were in lodge together....to God.

Be well, brother.

And you as well.

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
Exactly. And there are those on this board (Masons, mind you) that make statements against the divinity of Christ and state that hell isn't real or Satan isn't real. They don't preface these statements as beliefs, but as though they were hard facts with implications that anyone believing otherwise is somehow naive.

On the other hand, I think Augie saying "there is no hell" is a bit different, ethically, than a fundie saying "there is a hell, and you're going there unless you blahblahblah". There's no implicit threat in what Augustus has said. If he's right, and there's no hell, the what have you lost? On the other hand, someone who's foaming at the mouth telling you that your eternal soul will burn forever seems a bit more off-putting, and, shall I say, rude?

Originally posted by JoshNorton
On the other hand, someone who's foaming at the mouth telling you that your eternal soul will burn forever seems a bit more off-putting, and, shall I say, rude?

Yes, and typically, when I am foaming at the mouth, it is due to the frothy head of my beer.

Mmmmmmmmm, beer rabies.

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
I think there's much about Christianity that can be experienced as hypocritical, dogmatic or ridiculous. All of those things involve people. Anything that involves people can be hypocritical, dogmatic, ridiculous or (insert any other descriptor you like).

Yet it seems that for all the world's major religions, Christianity is the one that seems to have the most absolutists when it comes to Freemasonry. Certainly I don't recall such vehemence directed from Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, etc. towards the Craft. Why's that I wonder?

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
I, as a mason am always careful to not try and say anything that another person (mason or non-mason) may construe was hurtful toward their belief. As masons are we not to try and hold a higher standard? We are all fighting some sort of battle and when I see comments (or make comments myself) that are designed to deride or be hurtful it's just off-putting.

We are expected to hold ourselves to a higher standard than our non-Mason friends. But in the end, we are human and normal human shortcomings will still happen. The difference is that we are to aspire to better ourselves going forward and not wallow in the habitual.

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
I think if we look underneath the motives of those that come here railing against masons and telling us we're going to hell we would find motives that are good. They care enough about people to try and do what they see as ultimately helpful.

I think I'd take issue with you on that one. IMHO, the ones that come spouting fire and brimstone are looking to feel superior and are quite unacquainted with the axiom of "live and let live".

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
They go about it HORRIBLY awfully though. Why do you or we even bother responding to them?

Because there are more observers than contestants in the threads. To let a lie go unchallenged is to allow it to accumulate a little bit more credence in the court of public opinion.

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
Or if/when we do can we not use a soft answer instead?

Unfortunately, for all the soft, reasoned answers that are trotted out inevitably the conversation turns hard by degrees. I've yet to run into a reasonable anti-Mason who is willing to accept that his/her beliefs about Masonry may be in error. Reasoned discussion seems to be a lost talent in this day and age. Instead we are trapped between absolutists of one stripe or another who seem incapable of giving an inch. The other is a hidebound fool, unworthy of our valuable time.

Such inflexibility inevitably leads to conflict.

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
I guess I'm just weary of feeling that everyone in the world is against everyone else. That's all we seem to see on the news or the internet these days.

It's one of the outcomes of our immediate-gratification society (of which the Internet is a major player). Our attention span is winnowed down progressively until only the most black or white statement catches our attention. That and a normal human respect for others not of our cohort is one of society's great current shortcomings and one of the great inherent strengths of Freemasonry. In my lodge, the IPM is Sikh, we have a couple of Muslim members, no shortage of Catholic members, a Latter Day Saints member (a pot-stirrer of the foremost degree ), Protestant members, Jewish members and a few other I'm sure I'm overlooking.

The fact is that if men of such disparate religious backgrounds can see pretty much eye-to-eye in Lodge, then Freemasonry must represent some sort of benchmark for the rest of the world to aspire to.

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
My apologies if my words have offended or become too abrasive to be effective. I've spent the last 30+ years as a Christian and for the past 3 years have studied the Catholic faith until enrolling in RCIA this last fall. Myself, my wife and our children all entered the Church this past Easter weekend. My constant goal is to serve God, love Christ with all my heart and help my fellow man in whatever fashion I'm able. I suppose I get testy when others don't see as I do. That's my fault though.

Congratulations on exercising your faith, something everyone should do in whatever manner. I try to do the same in my own way. Ultimately, men of good faith should all try to serve the GAOTU in the manner of their raising and if the particular words or manner don't exactly match our own, as long as the outcome is good, then it's good that is done and all else pales into insignificance.

HTH

Fitz

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
[Let's talk about something happy now....like how Dign4it is banned. ;-)

Nuts. And I did so want to find that treasure room in my Temple.

Oh well, next time

Fitz

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon


Yet it seems that for all the world's major religions, Christianity is the one that seems to have the most absolutists when it comes to Freemasonry. Certainly I don't recall such vehemence directed from Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, etc. towards the Craft.

I have to disagree. The vast majority of Freemasons are Christians, and the majority of Christians who are not Masons are not anti-Masons. On the other hand, Islamic fundamentalists continually call for actual violence against Masons. Consider the bombing of the Masonic Temple in Istanbul a couple years ago.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by ForkandSpoon
I must admit it is very customary in my locale for chaplins to end prayers in this way...

I would have a very serious issue with this aspect of your prayers. I personally do not pray in Christ's name, I pray in God's name. I also personally do not believe them to be mutually interchangeable nor do I want to know if the person standing next to me does or does not, neither should my Brother Masons care about my religious beliefs.

Again it is a custom of my locale they have been doing this quite awhile, or as longa s anyone can remember I asked about it once.... I'm sure if anyone raised an objection they would reconsider it, but no one ever has. I have noticed this changes quite a bit state to state. However if this would cause you a serious issue, I have to tell you there are quite a few regions in the United States in which you will have trouble.I have seen "in Christ's name" used at a few lodges in different states in southeast, and midwest. usually in more rural areas especially, as most of them have similar backgrounds and faiths.

When you travel you find all sorts of nuances, but they are your brothers all the same. I am indifferent, because whether or not the man next to me holds my religious views or not is unimportant to me. I usually for that matter take it as a matter of fact he never will, because I have had unique experiences, and I have had a rather unique religious background, and I'm not sure if anyone has views exactly like mine.....and that's fineby me. I only care that they accept there is a creator, and that they take their obligations seriously....if I were to go into a Lodge in an area that was primarily Muslim, I would take no offense to them evoking Allah either. Why should that bother me? I knew they beleved so when I went ...I don't think either of us would be confused as to our own beliefs, and as masons we would know that we both accept each other's right to a different view, and to accept each other all the same. Of the things I have seen in other lodges that could be offensive, I just don't think it rates very high at all. I think a good rule in travel is to recognize my norms will be different then the place I travel to.

Originally posted by ForkandSpoon
I am indifferent, because whether or not the man next to me holds my religious views or not is unimportant to me.

As am I. However, I still do not think that this type of prayer or the knowledge of my Brothers personal religious standpoint is compatible with what I feel Masonry shoud be as related by the lessons of the Degrees and by established protocol.

The only thing about Freemasonry that is unchristian is that when you make a self sacrifice... you find that the Freemasons are there to thwart the evil doer from pushing you to the end extremes. a.k.a. Death.
Yay Freemasons...
So... if you're looking to be like Christ. Thank the Freemasons for not making you go the extremes that Christ went to.
Tada!