Today America stands United in Shame

This is just the beginning. Rumsfeld has made it clear there is more on the way. The gloves are off. Get used to it.
This is the New America. Under the pretext of 'fighting terrorism' you can be arrested and held without charge and subjected to any one of these charming 'college japes'. We'll put a bag over your head and masturbate it out of you. Especially if you're an arab.
More photos and sadistic movies to come. New reality TV?

Originally posted by COOL HAND
I would define indiscriminate as being for no purpose. The closest thing I can compare it to is a pilot punching off ordnance for the hell of it. Not to attack anything.

Therein lies your problem. You don't know what indiscriminate means.

Any chance you will ever answer the question that I posed to you?

It's not as if we don't have many other more discriminate WMD in our arsenal....weapons that do damage at the time of impact, and don't indiscriminately continue to randomly blow people up for 30+ years afterward, including our own soldiers. That is, most definitely, indiscriminate.

As already pointed out, this has become too far off topic now. Discussion over.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Besides treatment of prisoners, refugees, the hell with ethics!

War is war. War MUST be won. So forget restrictions on cluster bombs, you fight the enemy with all you've got.

The loser is always the one who tries to be "humane." War is the exact opposite of being humane, so deal.

Then why pretend? Why even sign the GC in the first place? I think we were trying to prove that we're more civilized. So much for that idea, eh?

[Edited on 5-10-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Satyr
It's not as if we don't have many other more discriminate WMD in our arsenal....weapons that do damage at the time of impact, and don't indiscriminately continue to randomly blow people up for 30+ years afterward, including our own soldiers. That is, most definitely, indiscriminate.

Now you are calling CBs weapons of mass destruction? Are you serious?

As already pointed out, this has become too far off topic now. Discussion over.

Yep, definately not giving me a straight answer.

Originally posted by Satyr
It's even more obvious now that you don't understand honor. You're condoning unnecessary abuse and/or torture. It doesn't matter what they were ordered to do. Illegal orders do not have to be followed, and those would definitely be illegal, since it defies the Geneva Convention. FYI, we're supposed to follow our own rules...and the ones we've agreed to. That's honor. Even Rumsfeld will tell you that. Are you still going to condone this type of treatment? You are indeed mentally ill, if so. Judging from your comments, I don't think you've ever had honor, or understood what it means. You can stay in the "dirty ape" category, as far as I'm concerned.

Who said I condoned it? I said, I am not condemning these american soldiers for doing what they did-- AND Im not LABELING the entire US military. AND I am NOT shamed AND I am proud to be an American.

Sorry, you dont know what those people had to deal with. You dont know what those soldiers saw. You dont understand their war.
I never said it was the right thing to do, but Im not going to judge these people yet.
If I saw an enemy kill my fellow soldier, you would nt find me serving this prisoner a snack and asking them if theyd like to pen a letter home. How can you expect that from any human being. Im done here.
You didnt get my point that the "lets all be friends"
approach isnt going to work here.

Originally posted by xxKrisxx
Sorry, you dont know what those people had to deal with. You dont know what those soldiers saw. You dont understand their war.

Aaaawwww, those poor soldiers. They just needed to blow off some steam, eh? I think I understand their war better than they do, otherwise they wouldn't be invading Iraq.

I never said it was the right thing to do, but Im not going to judge these people yet.

Why not? You've already judged the Iraqis.

If I saw an enemy kill my fellow soldier, you would nt find me serving this prisoner a snack and asking them if theyd like to pen a letter home.

These particular Iraqis didn't kill anyone they knew. In fact, I doubt those soldiers even saw any battle. They've probably been prison guards the whole time. Even if they weren't, what you're saying is very racist, IMO. It like the "black man" example I gave previously. Will you mistreat all black people because one did something to someone you knew once? That's just sick.

You didnt get my point that the "lets all be friends"
approach isnt going to work here.

I never said "let's all be friends", did I? I said, let's at least pretend we have honor, and we're not perverted idiots who are worse than cruel, grade school children...in so many words. Actaully, I'm all for never being there in the first place. The more I see of certain American mentality, the more I'm all for never wanting to be here.

Wow, this thread is indeed all over the place.

Good info on the GC, Phoenix. Very concise. Dare I say, pithy? That's what I was trying to get across in my earlier post, in layman's terms. Good to see it there in undeniable legalese.

Cluster munitions are in no way illegal. To be quite honest, I don't see anyone with the authority to tell us what modern weapons are 'legal', seeing as we invented pretty much all of them. Sure, all the whiny folk who are currently making such a stink about Abu Gharib are the same ones who whine about the CB's. No surprise there. Insofar as the charges of CB's being indiscriminate...well, that's simply not true. Back in Afghanistan there was some ruckus made when we dropped a bomb on a civillian home that terrorists were using as a shelter--they tried to portray it as 'indiscriminate' bombing of civillians per the GC. The answer to these charges, which silenced the outcry, was simple:"No, it wasn't indiscriminate--that bomb went exactly where we wanted it to." We're not just flying around dropping these things willy-nilly. Lord no, they're too expensive for that! Bombs, of all varieties, get dropped on things and/or people we want to make go 'boom'. Our munitions are the finest ever created, and go above and beyond anyone else's in terms of accuracy and limitation of collateral damage.

I don't think we need to worry about being treated like the Abu Gharib prisoners, Dingo. Some American men actually pay large sums of money for women to drag them around by dog collars, much less have them put panties on their heads while they masturbate! Heck, over here that's a multi-million dollar industry!

Here's the real lowdown on what was happening over there, for those of you who can handle the truth.

the real scoop

I was reading this thread a while ago, and I couldn't help but remember the day I started this thread and the feelings I had back then.

A shameless bump... maybe.. But I think maybe some new members may want a look at it.. It was interesting to read though all over again.

Really I still can't believe I wrote it. Sometimes raw emotions bring out the truth.

And what I wrote when I started this thread is as true today of not more so than it was back then

Gazz

[edit on 29-8-2004 by UM_Gazz]

Gazz, I clearly remember reading this post for the first time and how emotionally raw I felt. I'm glad you've bumped it . I still feel as you do...even more so. So sad.
joey

I couldn't disagree more. I'm more proud of America today than I have been in many years. In the words of my Vietnamese friend, "America stands for freedom." That makes me proud.

In my opinion America does not entirely have to shame because it was the right thing to do to defeat Saddam Hussain and the Baas party - the brutal regime as bad as USSR. But he also must face IMMEDIATE trial. Justice mustn't be delayed.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I couldn't disagree more. I'm more proud of America today than I have been in many years. In the words of my Vietnamese friend, "America stands for freedom." That makes me proud.

"America stands for freedom."

"But if you think your free, try walking into a Deli, and urinating on the cheese!"

"Anarchy Burger!! hold the government please!!!!"

Early Vandals song, had a brief mention in the movie XXX but I thought the Song "Mowhawk Town" was better.

The "Shame of America" is a matter of perception from many many views. Some Punks will tell you that it is a Shame of the loss of ones soul as it was sold out to the corporations back in the 70's and 80's ... Damn I had a cool Mowhawk back then.

Others will say it is in the sloth like obesity that has developed over years of complacincy, some will say that it is the Caowboy might makes right mentality as we attempt to police the world in an enternal struggle to prove to the world that we have the biggest D1c|

This is not just let's go over there and kill terrorist ... Terrorism is going to exist untill that Government Takes control and gets some kind of organization ... and if USA is the only people in the world that realize it then we will go in and put some organization together OURSELVES @@@@ and if that doesn't work we will go back in and do it all over again. Because the rpesident of this United States of Amercia knows that his children and his country our not safe untill this happens ... So everyone stop #in with us or we will come rip your head off ... and if you think that anyone is goign to nuke us ... HAHAHA ... Get real ... we have 2 nukes on over 45 subs around the world, it use to be take the head of the snake ... take it all but times change and so does warfare ... And we are not a snake ... ... We stand proud and do this # out loud we are not ashamed of putting countries together and take them from living in poverty to actually living . Their lives right now are worth nothing more than the Spanish Conquistadors ... Just running around conquering stuff... over and over we have land you have land .. now we have it back .... Blah Blah Blah ... Why don't they try to get somehting outta thier lives.

Originally posted by AtheiX
In my opinion America does not entirely have to shame because it was the right thing to do to defeat Saddam Hussain and the Baas party - the brutal regime as bad as USSR.

You are a little misinformed about the former USSR. There is little if any similarity between these two countries.

Yeah, give Saddam back to them, say we're sorry, and not worry about what kind of weapons they're building, just sit back and wait till one detonates here. GREAT IDEA!! Atleast that way we won't have to worry about people like some of you saying we didn't have a good enough reason to be there. We'll just lose a few million first is all. Saddam's brother-in-law, who was the head of his military, spoke of the nuclear plans and terrorists plans and now he's headless. We had plenty of reasons to be there and I'M NOT ASHAMED one bit. Although upset at what is being done to some of the prisoners, but it still doesn't compare to what they've done to ours and others. I believe that you should'nt pigeon hole our military over what few idiots have done, and I'm sure they will be punished and pay the price severly.
This is in response to one of the earlier posts I just now read.

[edit on 30-8-2004 by livenlearn]

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
A few weeks ago, could you have dreamed of the events we all have seen?

Can you now look away, or seek a rational way to dismiss the fact that we as a nation have been shamed in every possible way?

We are a nation of freedom, a nation of pride, and thought to have been a nation of "higher moral value"... We have felt the hand of evil, and have shown that we are no longer immune to being seen as that very evil.

Through the actions of a few, we have been hit with the shameful reality that, just because we are the world's super power, and we have all the answers to the world conflicts... we at least are no better than them... we are human beings, with flaws, and unspeakable evils, just as they are.

We are human on all sides... and this war so far has shown at least that.

No matter what is said and done from this day forward, there will be no way to erase this shame.

You can put any spin on it you want, soak up the media hype, or just avoid the topic all together. It will not change what has happened or what has been done.

Everyone is seeking justice now.. but who is just in this war now?

We are the people of this world and that is all of us... on all sides... when you can see the value of all human lives and learn the most basic respect for that life maybe we can find some real answers and move toward peace.. a real and lasting peace.

What the hell did Iraq have to do with the war on terrorism?.. someone asked me once and I made pages of answers.. but now I am willing to admit that going into Iraq had nothing to do with the war on the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11/01.

Shame on them, and now it is shame on us.

The next time we are attacked there will be many more in the middle east and a great deal of the world who will say "they had it coming" or they got what they deserved"

The impact of the recent events of this war will take years to evolve.. and even longer to understand.. we exposed to the world our basic flaw of being human and can become evil in every possible way.

War On Terrorism?

Show me who the real terrorists are now!... better yet show me where they are.

Think! ... a brain is only a waste as long as you are without an open mind.

Gazz

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by UM_Gazz]

Speak for yourself. Am I the only one who gets tired of liberals and other nutcases speaking for me?

For the record, I am not a liberal!

My voting record is almost consistant and very republican, This is America and I think it is still ok to be Republican and very against this war!

I was a strong supporter of this war until the day I was able to see the true evil of war, and mainly the war in Iraq, a war that in my opinion has done more damage to both the Iraqi people, their nation and to the reputation of the United States of America than time will ever be able to repair.

There is no turning back now, and like it or not shame is what it is.. you can try to sweep this shame under the rug all you want. but one way or the other you will have to deal with it. And that is the greatest shame of all.

We once were a proud nation, it is hard to have a sense of pride now when you know your nation is in a war based on false information and an Israeli agenda. Taken advantage of by a company linked to the Vice president himself.

Sorry for calling it as I see it, if that offends you.

But I am not sorry for my opinion, and neither should you be.

[edit on 30-8-2004 by UM_Gazz]

Saddam Hussein and his regime had little if nothing to do with the events that occured on September the 11th of 2001. Saddam Hussein and his regime had built weapons of mass destruction before and they showed their willingness to use them by gassing the Iranians and the Kurds. Saddam since then could have destroyed his weapons, hid his weapons very well in the vast Sahra al Hijarah desert, hidden them in Syria or given them to the highest bidder. Saddam Hussein had not rebuilt his military so he posed a very little threat to the surrounding nations and American interests or basically our interest in the oil. The threat he posed was in his capability to sell or freely give the technology to build weapons of mass destruction. He "could" (and I emphasize "could") have given certain groups these weapons or he could give them the technology to build them. I hope that in the 13 years after the Gulf War he never explored this option but we as of now don't know if he did. America does not need to worry about him giving anyone those terrible weapons anymore. We now don't need to worry about him at all. We only need to worry about how fast the Iraqis will hang him for the crimes he commited during his 24 year tenure as president of Iraq.



[edit on 9/2/2004 by verfed]

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
For the record, I am not a liberal!

My voting record is almost consistant and very republican, This is America and I think it is still ok to be Republican and very against this war!

I was a strong supporter of this war until the day I was able to see the true evil of war, and mainly the war in Iraq, a war that im my opinion has done more damage to both the Iraqi people, their nation and to the reputation of the United States of America than time will ever be able to repair.

There is no turning back now, and like it or not shame is what it is.. you can try to sweep this shame under the rug all you want. but one way or the other you will have to deal with it. And that is the greatest shame of all.

We once were a proud nation, it is hard to have a sense of pride now when you know your nation is in a war based on false information and an Israeli agenda. Taken advantage of by a company linked to the Vice president himself.

Sorry for calling it as I see it, if that offends you.

But I am not sorry for my opinion, and neither should you be.

lol... Relax, man, if you're against the war you're heading down a long, bumpy road and you should pace yourself. For better or worse, the gears of the war machine are well underway. Once that beast starts rolling, doing anything as an outsider is like trying to stop a tank by grabbing the treads. Just keep in mind that your country and people are always greater than the idiots who sometimes work for us, aka the government.

[edit on 30-8-2004 by taibunsuu]

The following is what I meant to post in quoting the member in the above thread..

Saddam Hussein and his regime had little if nothing to do with the events that occured on September the 11th of 2001. Saddam Hussein and his regime had built weapons of mass destruction before and they showed their willingness to use them by gassing the Iranians and the Kurds.

Most of what you say rings true. However before the attacks of 9/11/01 our own leaders in the republican party were bragging about how well the sanctions on Iraq were working, and that Saddam's regime was becoming more irelevant with each passing day. and how the no fly zones were working well to contain Saddam's military threat, We were told how weakened his military was and how most of his WMD had been done away with.

Suddenly it all changed after 9/11 and Saddam's Iraq once again became a urgent threat to our security.

Was it good to remove Saddam?... Yes.. But what about the misinformation? false reports, they have already been forced to admit to??

It was easy for me to support the war after what happened on 9/11... But the truth found its way to the surface later.. and that truth is still too hard for some to accept!


[edit on 30-8-2004 by UM_Gazz]

Originally posted by UM_Gazz

Most of what you say rings true. However before the attacks of 9/11/01 our own leaders in the republican party were bragging about how well the sanctions on Iraq were working, and that Saddam's regime was becoming more irelevant with each passing day. and how the no fly zones were working well to contain Saddam's military threat, We were told how weakened his military was and how most of his WMD had been done away with.

Well, the funny thing is that Saddam is an entirely, 100% Hollywood monster. He's a self-generated enemy. While it's hard to believe these days after a few years plus a decade of brainwashing from the heads talking on television, Saddam and his Iraq have never at one point been worse than the other regimes our country has no problem with installing and supporting. In fact, relations with the US and Iraq were so nifty that during the Iran-Iraq war we allowed Iraq to fly tankers with US flags, and one day when an Iraqi Exocet myself accidentally sliced the USS Stark in two and killed a few dozen sailors, we didn't bat an eyelash. Heck, when the Iranians flew journalists into a happy little village of kids who'd choked to death on phosgene, the US administration said that sanctions on Iraq, mostly brought up by those liberal Democrats in Congress, was 'premature.' Premature indeed, since if it was in fact the Iraqis who gassed them, and not the Iranians as some intelligence says, the US probably supplied the dual-use chemicals to create the gas.

Saddam was put into power by the CIA and he was doing us the courtesy of invading Iran, so we really couldn't get upset over a few toasted sailors and a few gassed Kurds. The Kurds, gassed by our then-ally, made a great rallying call years later against the US-ally who gassed its own people. I mean the Butcher of Baghdad, who Oceania has always been at war with and always will be at war with. Well, you get the picture.

Suddenly it all changed after 9/11 and Saddam's Iraq once again became a urgent threat to our security.

Was it good to remove Saddam?... Yes.. But what about the misinformation? false reports, they have already been forced to admit to??

It was easy for me to support the war after what happened on 9/11... But the truth found its way to the surface later.. and that truth is still too hard for some to accept!

Why was it good to remove Saddam? I can't think of a single reason. "We removed a brutal dictator." Uh-huh. Who put Saddam in power in the first place? Who was his uncle for years? Who shook his hand and kissed his ass to get him to shoot up Iranians in one of the bloodiest, most pointless wars in history? Who gave him satellite surveillance, helicopters, tanks, ammo, chemicals, a protective flag, and loaned him AWACS? Who created this dictator in the first place? How do the Iraqis who've had so much fun fighting Iran for the US, then suffering under Saddam and US sanctions, then a half-assed US invasion that can't pacify the country, feel about the US and the Bush family? How do they feel about democracy, in a country with cultural institutions where graft, corruption and family ties are the law? How do they feel about seeing their neighbors rounded up in insurgent sweeps where they watch them getting glosticks shoved up their asses on TV? The only indigenous political figures in that part of the country come out of families, (Think The Godfather, or any classic familial pyramid - the most stable political structure in history, by the way.) or religious.

So, we took a dictator out of power. Well, it's a great #ing day! I'm proud to be American! Let's hear it for that mother#er who landed on an aircraft carrier and said the war's over! We took a dictator out of power. That's just great. I feel soooo much safer, and I'm sure all the Iraqis do, too.

Truth is, the administration has to wage war on the US public through information to wage the hot war on the other side of the world. This is, quite simply, because aggressive foreign war of choice is what we in the advertising business call 'a hard sell.'

Personally, as far as wars go, I don't feel this is an entirely terrible war, and besides the fact that war is often fought for its own ends, this one actually has some quasi-logical economic and geopolitical goals. We can, also, maybe, perchance, actually make life better in Iraq and redeem ourselves somewhat for our actions over the past 25 years there. (But I won't hold my breath.)

But, please don't insult my intelligence with short-sighted, moronic catchphrases like 'we took a dictator out of power.'


[edit on 30-8-2004 by UM_Gazz]