Today America stands United in Shame

Thomas, you always put things very clearly. While I'm not a republican, I'm also not a democrat. I don't feel any personal shame at what those people did, I'm not in the army so it doesn't really affect me. I'm ashamed of those people, I think they should be severely reprimanded, but I'm not personalled ashamed. We have the greatest country and military in the world, I'm hardly ashamed at that.

I love the United States. I love what this country stands for, and the freedoms it allows me. I may not agree 100% with our government, or even stand by their decisions, but that does not make my love for my country diminish. The acts of a few wacked out, immoral individuals does not make me love America any less. It's the same way that the acts of a few priests does not make my love my God or my religion any less. I'm not those people, so I'm not shamed by it.

I feel sorry for those of you who feel the country is united in shame. I'm not part of that unity, I suppose.

Besides, I'm not approving of an eye for an eye type theory; but look at what Iraq did to our soldiers and citizens. They burned them, hung them, and put it all on display for everyone in the world to see. That pisses me off to no end, it makes me hate the people who did that to our soldiers, but it does not make me hate every person in Iraq. Just as the actions of a few military personell should not make the entirety of the United States feel ashamed.

I have to say that after learning about Rumsfeld mentioning the fact rape and murder where occurring within the Abu Ghraib prison I'm not as relaxed about it.

My original comments where assuming the worst that happened was stupid dog piles and making guys in hoods who can't even see what their doing pose in stupid mock sexual positions, and etc.

But after hearing that rape and murder was going on there I find the situation disgusting. This needs to never happen again for any reason. Regardless of how they treat our POW's we can't act like this. It's just fueling the fire we're all savage and barbaric westerners with no god.

This stuff went on in every war on every side in history... this I understand. But that doesn't mean we can't change that.

-sock

[Edited on 8-5-2004 by s0cket]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

I have a quick question for you, um-Gazz, did you have anything to do with the warped and disgusting behavior of a handful of people? Were you one of them?

No I did not, and I can only assume the same is true for you.

But these actions were carried out by US soldiers, who were in uniform and on Duty, I cannot believe that they acted alone, without supervisors and chain of command knowing this was going on... Or worse may have ordered it.

You can pick any line in this thread, and take any position you want, But you cannot escape the fact that we as a nation have been shamed by these actions.

And I for one am very ashamed at our US military at this point... Mainly because of the actions of a few, and also that no one from the sickos who did this up through the chain of command thought of the real impact of these actions.

Maybe I am alone in my view.

Gazz

The event did not affect me, because I knew it was going on from the start. War is hell, and the world is gray. There are no "good guys" or "evil guys." We are all capable of doing the same thing.

What I am upset at it is some of the hypocracy I've been hearing. Here we are, talking about how good we are, how we went to Iraq to help people, and when we found out this happened, many of us are in deniable about it and push it up as politics. Wow, we really are that close-minded.

But to me, those soldiers who committed those acts are not Americans. To me, they are as bad as Saddam Hussein and Hitler. They have completely shamed the United States of America. If we lose, then you can chalk this up to them.

For those who'd bring in the treatment of the American POWs into the equation, get real. We are the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. We are supposed to stand for the positive side no matter how negative the other side is. Isn't that what America is all about?

And believe me when I say this, the U.S. military does not suck. Okay, the U.S. Army is incredibly shameful. But the U.S. Marine Corps especially (on the ground), have served with honor and courage and dignity. I hear all sorts of moaning and complaining coming from Iraq, stories of how they hate Arabs, and they are ALL army soldiers.

Originally posted by Valhall
TC

I have a question. Is it correct to state that the lower ASVAB scoring individuals end up as MP's? In other words, if you can't qualify for more technical MOS's, you can qualify for MP? Is this correct? (And, please, before anybody jumps on me, I'm not dissing MPs, I'm trying to get straight whether this is SOP.)

No, Val, to my recollection, the ASVAB score for MP wasn't doofus-low. Besides, I served with extremely bright people when I was an MP. We were also disciplined and we NCO's took the job seriously. A soldier even thinking of such activity would have a boot clean up his arse. I thank the softened military training for this. Without discipline, soldiers are no more than a gaggle of guys and gals carrying weapons.

If so...don't you think that this will change that? That the MP position will be reconsidered in its importance?

TC

Thanks for busting that myth. Now, if some one else says this to me I'll ask you if I can borrow your boot..

I'll be able to handle it from there.

Sweat, have you taken a spill and bumped your gord? No bad guys and no evil guys? If this is the way you think, you are truly troubled, and are most likely asocial. Asocial people scare the crap out of me because they cannot see the difference between good and evil.
Let me help you out, though:

Shredding fellow humans in plastic shredders - bad.
Raping the wives of dissenters - bad.
Raping dissenters - bad.
Imprisoning children who prefer not go to Baath brainwashing camp - bad.
Hoarding food for oil money and letting your people go hungry - bad.
Providing terrorist groups with training and logistics - bad.
Attacking a neighbor and doing all kinds of vile things to them, using chem/bio agents on civilians, agreeing to give up the chem/bio agents in return for a cease fire, and then thumbing your nose at the world - bad.

All these above mentioned things were done, condoned or encouraged by the Hussein regime. Attacking those who attacked us and who are still plotting to attack us is a very good thing. Rebuilding the Iraqi infrastructure, hospitals, schools and handing over the governments across the country to the people, these are all good things. Not condoning the actions of sick perverts as Hussein did (After all, he was one), that makes our nation much different, and in case you can't figure it out, that is a very good thing.

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Will video images of US soldiers raping Iraqi children open your eyes to the shame of this nation?

I just wanted to mention that the media reports that the video is shot by US soldiers. It is the Iraqi soldiers that are raping the Iraqi children.

While it is horrible that a US soldier would film such a thing - we need to remember that it is an Iraqi soldier that is a pedophile.

IMO those that should be punished should be the soldiers that did these things and their counter parts that knew it was going on. I highly doubt that Rumsfield knew.

TC,

Unfortuantely, you have the same problem as everyone else. You see everything in terms of left and right.

For example, take a gun. If you say the world is black and white, can you say a gun is good? Absolutely not. But can you say a gun is bad? Absolutely not. A gun is bad because it kills people. But a gun is good because it can blast the window of a burning car so you can save yourself or save someone else. Thus, if you say that there is good and evil, the gun scenario proves it wrong. Nothing can be good/evil. It's one or the other, and if you actually think for yourself and study the world, you know so many things are never one or the other.

So no, there is no good or evil. Put it this way, you think Iraqi insurgents are evil. But the Iraqi insurgents think you're evil. You obviously think you are right and they're wrong, but who's to say you're 100% right and they're 100% wrong? God?

So if you want to look at who's troubled, check out the mirror. I'm calling it the way it is.

[Edited on 8-5-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

[Edited on 8-5-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

I have to agree with Sweat. There are no "bad" guys or "good" guys. How can you make laws to regulate evil? If something, like killing, is evil then it is evil there should be no gray areas and for me there are none. War is wrong and everything that happens in it is wrong.

Gazz...

Why are we shamed? Why not outraged? This thing happened and the people responsible will have their fair trial and if they are guilty, they will go to jail. Where is the shaming part? I'm not ashamed when a child killer is caught or a rapist. I'm proud that we at least have a system that doesn't condone this sort of thing. There is nothing for us to be ashamed of. Nobody is mad at us that wasn't mad before this came out, and more are happy because they have one more thing to use to drag us down.

Iraq is an experiment gone wrong, I'll give you that. But our faces are hardly in the dirt over it. There is a need to spread democracy to the arabs. While war is never the answer, something has to happen over there to change the way arabs think and feel and live. If you don't understand that then you just don't get the lesson of 9-11.

Saphronia,

I was a little troubled by your "change the way Arabs think" statement. As much as you'd want, you cannot change the way people think. That is a lesson most people have trouble understanding. People are people and if they truly believe in something, they'll stick to it, no matter how wrong they are.

Look at anybody who is Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. It takes A LOT for one of them to convert or lose their faith. Why? Because they like it and they believe what they like. Those religions maybe 100% bogus, but are they going to stop believing it? As long as nobody can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt they're bogus, they'll always believe it.

That's why people like Martin Luther King won. He was always beaten down by the oppressors, but he never changed what he believed in. He simply said "You can take my life, but you can't take away my dream."

But backtracking, it's pretty obvious there is not good or evil. If there truly was good or evil, we'd all be evil.

[Edited on 8-5-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Sweat, when I say "change the way arabs think", I meant about America. It seems they are intent on blaming us for their lacks when it is the system they live under that is the culprit. If they were open to democracy and free markets they would prosper and have the opportunity to shape policy without war and blowing themselves up. They focus is too much on the USG and not on their own governments.

I don't believe democracy is the difference between good an evil thing. Representative government is the only way the people will ever have a voice, and that would end the need for reactionary violence. Change the system and you change their minds about what they have to do to affect the system. I don't see any other way to do it other than promoting democracy.

There are no more ways to explain my views here. I have expressed my sense of shame, and what I see as the shame of our great nation in the eyes of the world.

Time will show that this issue is much greater than many are willing to see or believe.

Perhaps I should change the title to Today America Stands Divided in Shame.

The meaning of the title was not what many thought it was. It goes a bit deeper than that and may have escaped almost everyone.

But this thread is amazing in so many ways.

This will be my last post in this thread.

Thank you all each and everyone your posts were all meaningful.



Gazz

Originally posted by Saphronia
Sweat, when I say "change the way arabs think", I meant about America. It seems they are intent on blaming us for their lacks when it is the system they live under that is the culprit. If they were open to democracy and free markets they would prosper and have the opportunity to shape policy without war and blowing themselves up. They focus is too much on the USG and not on their own governments.

I don't believe democracy is the difference between good an evil thing. Representative government is the only way the people will ever have a voice, and that would end the need for reactionary violence. Change the system and you change their minds about what they have to do to affect the system. I don't see any other way to do it other than promoting democracy.

Are you sure they're blaming us for their lacking? Or could they be blaming us for something else? The way I see it, they'd probably leave us alone if we didn't support Israel or had a limited presence in Iraq. The U.S. has been threatening the Arabic way of life in some ways.

Sweat, when I say "change the way arabs think", I meant about America. It seems they are intent on blaming us for their lacks when it is the system they live under that is the culprit. If they were open to democracy and free markets they would prosper and have the opportunity to shape policy without war and blowing themselves up. They focus is too much on the USG and not on their own governments.

If we really cared about democracy we would of liberated Kuwait and installed a democracy instead of leaving a dictator in charge. And some of the Iraqis may be sore that we gave Saddam the WMD to gas his own people and
turned a blind eye to it. Or, we we said we'd help them in the first conflict, and then stood back and watched them die. Or that Halliburton, Cheney's old company, was illegally doing buisiness with Saddam, during the embargo, essentially keepin Saddam wealthy. I think this whole thing stinks from Bush all the way down.

Tell me, Sweat, did we help stop Hitler from a right standpoint or a left? The Invasion of South Korea, left or right? Was it left or right that dropped the World Trade Center? Last week, a mother and her children were gunned down by Palestinian murderers, was that a left action or a right? Left and right are political spectrums, right and wrong, good and evil is what? Are you saying that because you determined I am on the right I cannot distinguish between good and evil?

A gun is not evil. It isn't good. It is a tool, and the purpose for which the tool is used is what is good or evil. If I use the gun to rob you, I am the evil one. If I use the gun to stop you when you attempt to rape my wife, it is you that is evil, not the gun I use. Place blame where it belongs, not on an inanimate object.

There is no good, no evil? Such a comment doesn't even warrant any response, all that is needed is to understand you are possibly asocial, and therefore a dangerous creature in society.

Saph, you have made one heck of a contradiction. You just asked how can we make laws to "regulate" evil (Regulation is commercial, and is done with codes and statutes, but I'll drive on pass that slip) but then you say you are happy when a rapist or child killer is caught, and you are proud our system doesn't condone that sort of thing. You have just answered your own question in that contradiction and weren't even aware of it.
This nation's government is based upon the constitution, which is based upon "natural" law, or God's law. Your rights are preserved through the constitution, not given to you by that instrument. Our laws are founded upon that instrument and upon what that instrument is founded. Laws are, in fact, created to promote morality and to punish immorality. That is why you will see the murderer, the rapist and the robber be charged with a crime, be found guilty and go to jail.

The whole notion that there is no good or evil is laughable and stands against all evidence to the otherwise. Were that the case, there'd be no law, no crime and no punishment. Were that the case, I could kill those I thought were in my way and there'd be no penalty.

The fact that I am bothering to explain such a simple concept indicates I am not using my time wisely.

Iraq is not an experiment that has gone wrong. Iraq, as well as Afghanistan, and any other place we find ourselves fighting this war on terror, is just that - war. It is unpleasant, it is painful and as with all war, it is horrible. But it is necessary that the righteous conduct war against those who attack them, and if you recall, we were solidly attacked a couple years ago. Actually, we were attacked several times before then, but the assaults appeared to be too small for the weak to acknowledge them. Even now, the weak among us try and say that we are the ogres, the monsters and the criminals. Even after all the lessons of history, Chamberlain's weak-spined mistakes would be remade were it left up to many.

At what point, Sweat, were the Allies in WWII no longer the good guys? When the Axis was pushed out of France? Once the Allies set foot in Germany, did they become the aggressor? Clearly not. Do you really think that the "insurgents" are killing and taking hostages because we are the mean tyrant and they the hapless defendant? We are not taking a country, we are not building an empire, were are attacking those who are responsible for the deaths of thousand in one day, innocent noncombatants, and we are taking measures to insure it doesn't happen again. That is what you do when you are attacked, you go to war and destroy the enemy.

Hitler would have loved you had you been on his propaganda program! You would have not only tried to explain to the world that the death camps were not evil, not were the experimentation in altitude and temperature on EPW's, but would have also tried to cdonvince the world that the German soldiers shooting at the advancing Allied forces were merely defending their homeland against an invading force. As a matter of fact, Hussein could possibly use you. Wait a minute, in a way he is, but you're doing it for free! Look, at least get bin Laden to pay you for this, he has money backing and can afford it!

Sweat: The US can only do what those sovereign nations allow it to do. They are mostly dictatorships masquerading as monarchies. To blame the US for the problems such as poverty, oppression, and maltreatment in the Arab world is ludicrous. Arabs should have the dignity that democracy provides. Freedom to chose how they live and how they worship. It's ignorance of freedom that is the problem not the US' relationship with Israel.

Bush 41 put sanctions on Israel...and Clinton attempted to broker a deal that would have given the Palestinians 98% of what they were asking for. And, in the first few days of the Bush administration Dub had no need for Israel. He said publically that the two parties needed to work out the issues on their own. We were still attacked on 9-11. After that he stood before the whole world at the UN and called for a free Palestine.

George Bush at the UN

America stands committed to an independent and democratic Palestine, living side by side with Israel in peace and security. Like all other people, Palestinians deserve a government that serves their interests and listens to their voices. My nation will continue to encourage all parties to step up to their responsibilities as we seek a just and comprehensive settlement to the conflict.

The problem isn't Israel--it is the belief that violence is the only way to effect government and that is because they do not have democracy. It is time the whole world stop making excuses and started promoting representative government.

Curme: Name another company that could have moblized in time to prepare for the drama we thought we would face in Iraq. The people of Iraq were not in the loop because we couldn't tip our hand and put our soldiers in danger. We had little back-up from the world. The French and Germans and Russians and Chinese were all against the war. The UN refuses to confront tyranny because some of them are tyrants. So, we used what resources we had available.

Its so easy to point to Halliburton as the problem. Tyranny and reactionary violence are the problems and democracy is the cure but it isn't plug in and play. There are going to be some set backs but if in the end Iraq is free that is a victory for democracy in the Arab world, and they deserve it just like everyone else.

TC: My question was rhetorical. You kinda misunderstood. The lines we draw are not equal. We call some killings good and other's bad. To me all are bad, so in this world there are no good guys and bad guys because the lines are all screwed.

Name another company that could have moblized in time to prepare for the drama we thought we would face in Iraq.

I guess we'll never know since they didn't seek other bids. Couldn't we of found another company that didn't illegally make Saddam rich when our vice-president was in charge?