House Democrats Will Seek Massive $540 Billion Tax Increase

They should pass this and raise the taxes and do the responsible thing like PAY DOWN THE 1.9 TRILLION DOLLAR BUDGET DEFECIET



But instead they are using it to open a new line of credit. We are doomed.

[edit on 12-7-2009 by Spartak_FL]

Originally posted by audas
Americans - hypocrisy personified - you wont even lift a finger to help your neighbour - this thread is testimony to that - yet try to tell the world how morally superior they are - laugh.

The fact is that most western capitalist democracies maintain universal health care - we have a sense of progress that looks after its population rather than placing personal greed and blatant malice above common human decency and basic human needs.

If you cant pay for medical needs in the US you will die - this does not happen in almost any progressive nation and makes you look third world - in many ways you are, as a nation, backwards.

Well I sure as hell am not what you assume...

You are right this nation is destined to fail if personal greed supersede basic human needs. But we have half a nation who repackages the lack of healthcare as a matter of self responsibility. Certainly if you are uninsured you must be lazy... Or if you are hungry or homeless. However the accumulation of hundreds of thousands of lifetimes worth of money is fine. So yes it is backwards in many regards, you cannot be productive if you are sick, hungry or stinking. So if you are desperately sick get a job and earn your recovery... The elite have always depended on pride to counteract human dignity.

I will tell you if cavemen practiced this we would not be discussing this or any other sociopathy for that matter.

My fellow ATSers are doing the work for the masters right now in fact, protecting the stipends and off shore accounts for the future.

They should pass this and raise the taxes and do the responsible thing like PAY DOWN THE 1.9 TRILLION DOLLAR BUDGET DEFECIET



But instead they are using it to open a new line of credit. We are doomed.

The solution:

Take them to court for fraud.

Hire a lawyer and have him talk about how the Federal Reserve is not part of the U.S. , neither is the IRS, etc.

You get thousands of people to do this, and the house of cards crumble.

reply to post by mental modulator

However I read three synopsis's before I tried to make it thru that piece of work.
I am also familiar with objectivism and I will say again here that it is extremism.
In fact the entire concept is not based upon reality, for one modern civilization can not exist as Rand sees fit.

It is a theory nothing more, it is not meant to be taken as a blueprint of a perfect world. The point of the book was that people were introduced to her theory of Objectivism in the book The Fountain Head. So she responded to the request by writing Atlas Shrugged.

What is happening in that book is what is happening before our eyes. The robber barons are getting richer and the everyday people are getting poorer.

Producers or earners do not expire as a group, they are replenished with every successive generation. The nature of business it self ensures that every hole made will be filled by a person who is not disheartened or any of the like.So the notion that all the genius ELITES will just give up fails to recognize human psychology, succession and feats.

Some what true, but when you take away the reward of succeeding less people strive to succeed, and then you end up with the same problem of dynasty's and a new class of elites.

Where the hell do you think the music you listen to comes from? An entitled rich person? Hell no, its a regular person who practices for a decade or more, free of pay
because they want to do it... People succeed because they are driven, when one spot is vacated a new occupant takes place.

You are correct on that notion.

So yes RANDS notions are based upon fantasy, ego and her own formulations.

Atlas Shrugged was a work a fiction not truth, as I stated above. When you see people referencing this book they are referring to the lead up of the high earners to stop working the higher paying jobs and thus making cutting off the revenue stream of the government and robber barons.

When it is all said and done I really think what you invite is a purer more potent for of tyranny. Taking ranks with the ELITES in these financial matters while citing SMALL BUSINESS... HOW did that Trillion $ tax cut work for our economy?
Besides doubling the capital base of the top 1% in less then ten years, what good did it produce.

You are in favor of a progressive tax. A progressive tax allows things like this to happen. A progressive tax allows the government to dictate behavior. Like giving tax subsidies to farmers to not grow food, so their corporate buddies like Monetso(sp?) to continue to push out smaller local farmers.

That is also the way it will work with this cap and trade bill if it passes. Politicians that are invested in these business will make lots of money and give themselves a tax subsidy to make the business profitable.

A progressive income tax is a form of control and as you can see it does not work it only increases the wealth of "elites". Whether you cut taxes on the rich or increase taxes on the rich, the "elites" only get richer. A progressive tax only hurts poor and middle class people, but creating a barrier to entry so people can not start their own businesses and compete with the bigger business.

I know, it made then richer and bolder because they have agents such as you doing their leg work. It is very easy to throw rocks and neglect the initial circumstances as I see everyday.

Like the other poster up above you have it backwards. You are doing the "elites" leg work for them. The circumstances you see everyday are the same ones I see everyday.

The difference is that you are blind to the fact that the government has created the problems. You are playing right into their hands. The government created welfare, which causes dependency. When people are dependent people forget how to fend for themselves because they don't have too.

The government created the high health care cost by only paying 20% to doctors and hospitals of people that have Medicaid. In turn the insured and people able to pay make up the other 80% that the government does not pay.

The government are the ones that are morally bankrupt and will not change IP laws so Big Phrama can no longer patent drugs and medicine. The government has caused all the problems that you are looking at today.

They have failed to do their duty and break down monopolies, they have failed in their duties to oversee the financial markets and make sure the situation we are going through never happened.

They have also failed in their duty to do what the American people voted for them to do. Government always ends up as a oligarchy, or kleptocracy when given powers unchecked.

What you fail to realize is that the situations you see everyday is failed socialist policies. The problems everyone sees today is the problem of a huge government run amok.

Open your eyes, Section 8, medicare, WIC, EIC, public schools, are all socialist policies. America is just as much socialized as Europe. The few differences is that America does not have a full Universal Health care system, but we do have government insurance, Medicare and Medicaid. The other difference is that the European model that you seem to favor the citizens do not have a constitution such as ours that favors freedom.

The European style government you seem to favor, the people in Europe are trying everything they can to get rid of socialist system.

I'll state this again the problems you see everyday is the direct result of government intervention. The system that you favor is more horrible than the one we have now.

I do not want the same bunch of crooks that constantly lie to us dictating what kind of health care I get. More importantly I do not want them taxing any segment of the population more than the other because they happened to be more successful the other people.

The fact is you are the pawn of the "elites". You are fighting for them and helping them consolidate their power because what you fail to realize is the atrocities you see everyday is exactly how they want you. They want people crawling to them to fix the problems.

They want dependent people, not independent people. You are fighting to make people dependent.

reply to post by audas


Sure, the same European "civilizations in which their constituents use violence and even kill each other over soccer matches...

Not to mention the fact that their so beloved "universal healthcares" are near, if not already bankrupt, and are known to be a lot less perfect than some Europeans like to admit...

But hey, these are the same Europeans who have ALWAYS bashed and blamed the United States even though the U.S. has been helping them whenever they needed help, but hey hypocrisy at it's worse....

Talk about "arrogance"....

Not all Europeans are arrogant, I even have "European family and friends", but Europeans such as audas show the worse kind of Europeans that there are...

Tax increases only end up funding a massive increase in bureaucracy rather then any great increase in the improvement of the delivery of services such as health care . Gee five hundred and forty billion dollars would go a fair way to paying off the money the trillion dollars Obama insisted on borrowing to pay for general policy goals . Still it would only be a chip off the moutain in terms of US debt .

Cheers xpert11 .

Originally posted by xpert11
Tax increases only end up funding a massive increase in bureaucracy rather then any great increase in the improvement of the delivery of services such as health care . Gee five hundred and forty billion dollars would go a fair way to paying off the money the trillion dollars Obama insisted on borrowing to pay for general policy goals . Still it would only be a chip off the moutain in terms of US debt .

Cheers xpert11 .

ya but it would be a start? instead, its going acquire more debt

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by mental modulator

 

However I read three synopsis's before I tried to make it thru that piece of work.
I am also familiar with objectivism and I will say again here that it is extremism.
In fact the entire concept is not based upon reality, for one modern civilization can not exist as Rand sees fit.

It is a theory nothing more, it is not meant to be taken as a blueprint of a perfect world. The point of the book was that people were introduced to her theory of Objectivism in the book The Fountain Head. So she responded to the request by writing Atlas Shrugged.

What is happening in that book is what is happening before our eyes. The robber barons are getting richer and the everyday people are getting poorer.

Certainly this is happening, but we see the source cause differently. I see that we have lost control of our government because of PRIVATE interests. They write their own laws
because they fund the system of elections, however public funding might be misconstrued as SOCIALISM. The market went SO drastically south because three senators penned a bill which was intended to expand private interaction and in turn let business police it self, IT WAS AN ACT OF RELEASING FEDERAL CONTROL that was the initial catalyst. So it strikes me down that you are a supporter of continuing this notion
of bequeathing the SAME entities with more power. IT assumes that these Business's will not take advantage of their POWER again. Yet the nature of business is to grow, expand and profit as much as possible. We just saw the death of many of these machines in action, strangled by their own freedoms.

Producers or earners do not expire as a group, they are replenished with every successive generation. The nature of business it self ensures that every hole made will be filled by a person who is not disheartened or any of the like.So the notion that all the genius ELITES will just give up fails to recognize human psychology, succession and feats.

Some what true, but when you take away the reward of succeeding less people strive to succeed, and then you end up with the same problem of dynasty's and a new class of elites.

Like I said with the musician example... I have been playing for thirteen years, my band practiced 26 days in JUNE and there are NO guarantees, however I work TWO jobs and find time... Mankind does not operate in the way you have presented, I have had ZERO reward and in fact am stepping it up relentlessly, PRODUCING better songs, my guys are too.

And I don't care about the new class of Elites for the time being, I am concerned about this active one...

Where the hell do you think the music you listen to comes from? An entitled rich person? Hell no, its a regular person who practices for a decade or more, free of pay
because they want to do it... People succeed because they are driven, when one spot is vacated a new occupant takes place.

You are correct on that notion.

So yes RANDS notions are based upon fantasy, ego and her own formulations.

Atlas Shrugged was a work a fiction not truth, as I stated above. When you see people referencing this book they are referring to the lead up of the high earners to stop working the higher paying jobs and thus making cutting off the revenue stream of the government and robber barons.

I understand, but you need to understand where Rand came from, she was angry.
Her father and his experiences was likely the basis of her theories and characters
antagonists. Soviet Russia resulted via the revolution, which lead to the Collapse of the Elite structure of Russia and it ruling class. Her father was successful and was a victim of EXTREME leftist ideology run mad. NO doubt she disliked what this did
to her family and their way of life, however she went to the other extreme which is psychologically justifiable. But to think of forcing any of this upon the US political system is ludicrous, we do not have death squads, riots or unavoidable food shortages.
HER ideas were born of things you or I have never seen, so to consider the resulting traumatic reaction as a viable option makes no sense to me.

This nation is free because the right and left keep eachother in check, DO NOT fool yourself by believing there is a formula.
You extinguish the right or the left and Tyranny will come sure as the sun.

When it is all said and done I really think what you invite is a purer more potent for of tyranny. Taking ranks with the ELITES in these financial matters while citing SMALL BUSINESS... HOW did that Trillion $ tax cut work for our economy?
Besides doubling the capital base of the top 1% in less then ten years, what good did it produce.

You are in favor of a progressive tax. A progressive tax allows things like this to happen. A progressive tax allows the government to dictate behavior. Like giving tax subsidies to farmers to not grow food, so their corporate buddies like Monetso(sp?) to continue to push out smaller local farmers.

Yes and it also has its benefits, I can get the tomatoes I love in winter, which supports my local grocery store, which pays my neighbor.

That is also the way it will work with this cap and trade bill if it passes. Politicians that are invested in these business will make lots of money and give themselves a tax subsidy to make the business profitable.

I do not disagree with you on this, I only disagree when people us politics as a REASON to attack science. My father was the department chair of a major university ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE until his passing. I am VERY familiar with environmental exchange, so an attack on certain things indicates an attack on his life work.
However arguing the merits of cap n trade are fair game to me and I see your point.

A progressive income tax is a form of control and as you can see it does not work it only increases the wealth of "elites". Whether you cut taxes on the rich or increase taxes on the rich, the "elites" only get richer. A progressive tax only hurts poor and middle class people, but creating a barrier to entry so people can not start their own businesses and compete with the bigger business.

well here we disagree, but considering you are against government programs it makes sense. I however think it is a guise to appeal to everyday pride, your assertion would have applied to any combination of taxation options, the fallacy is in citing the same results for each variable.

Like the other poster up above you have it backwards. You are doing the "elites" leg work for them. The circumstances you see everyday are the same ones I see everyday.

How so? I am for minimum wage - repeal of such would benefit elites.

Progressive taxation - which would cut the bottom line of such entities

And in only ONE sector I would be for socialization - healthcare, which is why the HMO's
and big Pharm are dropping MEGA bucks pushing the evils of socialism... In this case you are RESERVING the elite POWER at the expense of the ill and YOU.

The government created the high health care cost by only paying 20% to doctors and hospitals of people that have Medicaid. In turn the insured and people able to pay make up the other 80% that the government does not pay.

exactly, so let us go all the way and cut Hundreds of Billions in stipends, bonuses and advertisements out.

The government are the ones that are morally bankrupt and will not change IP laws so Big Phrama can no longer patent drugs and medicine. The government has caused all the problems that you are looking at today.

And which party and by default ideology does that?

They have failed to do their duty and break down monopolies, they have failed in their duties to oversee the financial markets and make sure the situation we are going through never happened.

Same as above... Which party blocked investigation in gas gouging last summer?
not my ideology..

What you fail to realize is that the situations you see everyday is failed socialist policies. The problems everyone sees today is the problem of a huge government run amok.

I see it as uncheck greed run amok, which taints government... The greed is the static
factor in all failing societies, including FASCIST ones.

Open your eyes, Section 8, medicare, WIC, EIC, public schools, are all socialist policies. America is just as much socialized as Europe.

Until public human waste disposal is sanctioned, then yes you are right.
I will remind you that restricting access to education has been the favorite tool of
the ELITES since the dawn of civilization. Public education is part EVERY civilized
sovereignty.

I'll state this again the problems you see everyday is the direct result of government intervention. The system that you favor is more horrible than the one we have now.

I favor a system that works and ensures that people do not die for greed.
I favor regaining control from corporate dominance.

I do not want the same bunch of crooks that constantly lie to us dictating what kind of health care I get.

sounds like you have just had a family member with cancer and you are battling the HMOS... Cause that is it to the T.

They want people crawling to them to fix the problems.

No I wanna tax them and use the money for HEATHCARE and HIGHER education

They want dependent people, not independent people. You are fighting to make people dependent.

Dude, welcome to the human condition, we are all dependent on eachother.

I would like to depend on people to maintain a base level of human decency,thats it

reply to post by mental modulator


No, we are not dependent on each other. Your thinking is flawed. We are not a collective. We are individuals.

What do you think people did before complex society? It was little groups where everybody worked together. It works on the small scale, the only way it will work on the large scale is for the government to be governed by a set of laws enforced by the people.

There will always be homeless people, there will always be poor people. No system is going to solve that issue. The only way people are going be truly free is to realize that we are individuals and some just aren't going to make it. That does not include the physically and mentally impaired.

Welcome to nature. It's cruel but it ultimately determines the rules.

Edit to add to tie this into the topic at hand.

This tax is only going to further hinder businesses being able to hire employees, which means more people out of jobs and more people on the government dole.

[edit on 13-7-2009 by Hastobemoretolife]

I make less than 20k a year, hell yeah anyone making 100k and over should pay more taxes, an ass load more taxes.

Glad to see the democrats know where to get the money, cause bush was taking it from the poor.

reply to post by hisshadow


What happens when you wake up and go to/back to school and start earning 30 to 50 K?

Then you perhaps get lucky and marry someone who has done the same. Now you are getting real close to that 100K ceiling.

Still feel militant about people who work hard and get somewhere?

Peace and Light!

Originally posted by hisshadow
I make less than 20k a year, hell yeah anyone making 100k and over should pay more taxes, an ass load more taxes.

Glad to see the democrats know where to get the money, cause bush was taking it from the poor.

How was Bush "taking it from the poor"? Anyone making less than 20k/year doesn't pay anything into the Federal 'system', most get awarded grants, subsidies, and credits for making less than 20k.

So basically, our current system rewards and celebrates under-achievers...er, I mean under-earners.


OTOH,

Our social economic system was never meant to be federally controlled. It was, and should have always remained, a state-controlled system.

While I do believe in assistance, I'm 100% against Federal assistance. It should be on a community (state) level. This way the funds are directly supporting yours (and my) community; therefore, we not only see our contributions at work, we can have better control on how they work.

The original and main purpose of the Federal Government was to give our states protection against foreign governments and armies. It was created as an umbrella for the state governments, so the state governments can focus on their people and their communities; instead of having to worry about 'outside' interests. The monies collected from each state, was to fund the National security interests.

Now, the Federal Government has it's nose buried so far in our 'a-double-ess-ee-es', they are completely blind to outside threats! We're now sitting ducks. In fact, we now pay THEM to leave us (the states) alone.

The Federal Government have gotten so money hungry,salivating at the chops for more, more, more, they just can't help themselves. Now, the very government we employed and entrusted, is imploding. Imploding on the states. The states are having to pay hefty ransoms to Uncle Sam, like mob protection. If the states decide not to pay, or don't have the money to pay the 'protection', then they'll just have their properties burned to the ground (hmmm, may THAT's what's up w/all the California fires......sorry just type-thinking)

Anyway, we just need to get back to the original plan. The states fund their own welfare, education, and et.al.; and demand that the bozos at Pinker Security, er I mean the White House, get back to what they were paid to do...Protect the United States! That's all. Nothing else.

Originally posted by SourGrapes

Originally posted by hisshadow
I make less than 20k a year, hell yeah anyone making 100k and over should pay more taxes, an ass load more taxes.

Glad to see the democrats know where to get the money, cause bush was taking it from the poor.

How was Bush "taking it from the poor"? Anyone making less than 20k/year doesn't pay anything into the Federal 'system', most get awarded grants, subsidies, and credits for making less than 20k.

NOT TRUE...

I know I have payed my taxes every year $175 out each check x's 26...

Get four hundred back...

Never broke $20,000

And I have NEVER been awarded anything, so sorry...

sonofaB&*$!! I can't get the Bugati Veyron now, and I've had to cut my pool cleaner down to 4 days a week. DAMN YOU OBAMA!!! DAAAAMN YOUUUUUU!!!

reply to post by semperfortis

They already got $540 billion beat with the carbon tax bill they
already pushed thru the house.

Every home will pay more for Natural Gas, Fuel Oil, Gasoline,
and Electricity ( whether it is green or not ).

Every business will do the same and then in turn pass that cost on
to the consumer.

Well also got S.787 if passed will tax all water even private well
and ponds in rural areas.

Can you imagine being taxed for your pond ???

Farm Wars - taxing your pond via S.787

The late great USA indeed.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by mental modulator

 

No, we are not dependent on each other. Your thinking is flawed. We are not a collective. We are individuals.

We are BOTH... I assume you are using a computer which is the result of hundreds of thousands of minds worth of time, energy and money. But that computer is yours
regardless of who invented it.

What do you think people did before complex society? It was little groups where everybody worked together. It works on the small scale, the only way it will work on the large scale is for the government to be governed by a set of laws enforced by the people.

They worked together towards a common goal, our society is an extension of this.
I agree, throw out the corporations that make the "peoples rules" via influence, throw out the corrupted politicians and lets start over. But if you forgo the first step the second step will not work.

There will always be homeless people, there will always be poor people. No system is going to solve that issue. The only way people are going be truly free is to realize that we are individuals and some just aren't going to make it. That does not include the physically and mentally impaired.

I didn't say any system could, what I think is that placing all of ones efforts towards
conserving power and amassing of money is exactly what we have been doing and it isn't working anymore.I see a different set of priorities. NONE OF US MAKE IT OUT ALIVE.

What is truly free in YOUR words??? What?

I am free right now, I could go get a glass of water or cap myself with the same amount of effort. I am just as pro people as you, but I think you see man made entities as people, once again it is INDIVIDUALS who assume the role of something larger.
But a company is not a person, can't kill em, feed em or talk to em.

Welcome to nature. It's cruel but it ultimately determines the rules.

I know, and I think you should consider the nature of modern big business and it ultimate effect on the peoples house...

Edit to add to tie this into the topic at hand.

This tax is only going to further hinder businesses being able to hire employees, which means more people out of jobs and more people on the government dole.

you may be right... But I hope you don't assume that people enjoy being in such a position. Remember this downturn was initiated by private business gone WILD,
it was not the government or the people who forced them to over leverage and cook the books. They lobbied to repeal the GSA, succeeded and preceded to fook things up full steam ahead. The government sat on their knuckles and here we are...
But don't forget who influenced who to loosen restrictions and what ideology believes in such practices.

S.Q.U.E.E.Z.E., S..Q..U..E..E..E..E..Z..E.....
Gotta.. get.. every.. last.. penny.. out.. of.. the.. publlic.....

So , S...Q...U...E...E...E...E...E...Z...E......

Like wringing out a wet rag, you twist and twist and twist, trying to make sure every last drop is out, then your left wondering why its out of shape and torn in the middle?

[edit on 13/7/09 by DataWraith]

This is wonderful, We need more taxes! We need more secret prisons and renditions! We need to be arrested anytime we fly the America flag upside down! We need to snitch on Patrick Henry every time he talks about Liberty! Lets stick ourselves with needles and inject druggy junk into our bodies for public safety! Lets hurt ourselves for the environment

What the heck has ever happened to America! Why aren't many sheeple standing up against these rights issues, our rights are going down the commode, or toilet? and what do people do, keep playing video games until they ban violent video games

Will we keep doing nothing and have fun with our families thinking nothing will happen under Obama until the men come and kill/rape your children, stick needles in families injecting toxins into the blood stream, steal your money and claim it is for the IRS, hold you all at gun point while they search your house and home and confiscate your guns, and make up treat Obama like a god before the scary men leave and come back the next day to cause more harm and pain.

We need to wake up and see the real truth behind the mask!

It's like warning somebody saying to (lets call him Bill) Bill and John tells Bill your house is going to get broken into, and Bill tells John, Oh it's just a conspiracy theory, my house wouldn't be robbed, it's totally safe. But then gunmen storm into his house and kill him and his wife in their sleep and they rob everything. Then next day a funeral happens and John says to himself "OH GAWD! What Happened to my friend! I tried to warn him but he wouldn't listen!". So if we don't think common sense and just throw it out the window we might as well throw ourselves out the window too because we become puppet drones to be killed when used up.

[edit on 13-7-2009 by uswgo]

The MAJORITY of the population are on a fixed limited wage, any increase in taxes affects the low earners to the stage that it is not possible to make any cutbacks in unneeded items and so items will NOT be paid for , whether its rent, clothing even food. the results affecting the state will in effect put the system under even more pressure.

The USA was the number 1 leading country in the world for many many years , sadly this has changed drastically, its central core has deteriated so much, even those with a high income now are being affected.

( a lot of you won,t like this) A high percentage of american people are becoming (communistic with their lifestyle) without being aware of it. Their spending power has become so reduced through no fault of your own.
You cannot get blood out of a stone, shame on those in power who try.
This IS the danger zone.