Stance on the Start of Masonry?

I know that FreeMasonry through the UGLE pretty much places it's start in 1717.
It is also my understanding that, from posts of various Masons active on the board, that Freemasonry can indeed trace it's history back much further.

The Grand Secretary of the United Grand Lodge of All England is of the opinion that evidence showing this existence was purposefully destroyed.
He sites Robert Macoy's General History, Cyclopedia and Dictionary of Freemasonry
as an example.
And he does have a point, the book does list a time line for Masonry stretching back a good while before 1717.

Now, he holds it as a conspiracy within the UGLE to present the emergence of FreeMasonry in 1717.

Now, it's been my understanding that the UGLE accepts the existence of Freemasonry before 1717, however that it is somewhat vague.
The Grad Secretary asserts the relevant documents were destroyed to keep it that way.

Personally, to me, it seems he's trying to give his Grand Lodge credibility. However, that's my opinion. Was looking for others.

Link Here !!

In 3rd degree lectures Masons read:

...that All-Seeing Eye, whom the sun, moon and stars obey, and under whose watchful care even comets perform their stupendous revolutions, beholds the inmost recesses of the human heart, and will reward us according to our works.
Save your money (dues), here is the ultimate Masonic "secret"....

THE ULTIMATE MASONIC "SECRET" IS THE LUCIFERIAN DOCTRINE that LUCIFER IS GOD!

In the Masonic Lodge everything is symbolic of something else. The name "Lucifer" means "Light Bearer" or "Light Bringer". Masons point out that the MORNING STAR is Lucifer. When Masons speak of the "light of Masonry", they actually refer to Lucifer bringing forth the light.

During the lecture for the 32nd degree, Masons are told that the triliteral name for god is composed of three Hindu gods: Brahma, Vishnu and Siva. Siva is a synonym for Satan! Lucifer is honored and revered by Masons as the TRUE GOD!

reply to post by ChemBreather


another Christians against freemasonry site. it is a sad day when a group claiming to be christian slanders another group with no evidence, just lies.
is it true what they say about freemasonry?

reply to post by network dude


Disregarding Chem's post, which was actually off topic, what's your view on the OP?

reply to post by RuneSpider


all I have heard is the same time frame of early 1700s, we even had a masonic historian come to a SR meeting and give his speech about the Templar connection. It was just his opinion and research, but nobody has of yet been able to tie in that part. The fact that the UGLE would have a possible inner conspiracy to hide the lineage is very interesting. It would be a large can of worms to open if there was a way to put speculative masonry in an earlier era. Especially if it was in Templar times. Great thread idea, and sorry I went off topic. I just take that bait most of the time. Bad fish.

reply to post by network dude


No worries.

If Chembreather wants to continue with his post, he should defer to starting his own thread.

had a little look around dont know if its relevent but perhaps this site may pose a few answers

The medieval guild of Masons to which Freemasonry was grafted did have a long history in England to be sure. Even the word Freemason was first coined in England. The Old Charges which were developed in England and which were later incorporated into Freemasonry have long been used as an argument to support the English claims. But they were not the origins of Freemasonry. No brothers, based on my readings, Freemasonry came into being in Scotland sometime between the death of Robert Cochrane in 1482 and the death of the Stuart King James I in 1625.

history of freemasonary

not a bad article really to read

If his assertion's are accurate, the only measure that I can think of - correct me if I am wrong - would be to compare the written degrees side by side and compare and contrast.

Someone would have to carefully examine the rituals and determine the differences.

My understanding is that the Bristol Masonic Ritual is the oldest written ritual to date. There is even a copy of this ritual on Amazon.

It's funny. Just as the Catholic Mass has changed dramatically - especially after Vatican II - and just as the Bible has gone through various revisions, you can definitely assume that the ritual in Freemasonry has gone through various changes over the years.

Is he willing to publicly disclose his allegedly "original" ritual - signs and tokens excepted - for careful analysis and compare and contrast?

reply to post by ronishia


Thanks for the link.
It seems that UGLE figures that the UGLE itself started in 1717, but Masonry itself started earlier.

Originally posted by network dude


another Christians against freemasonry site. it is a sad day when a group claiming to be christian slanders another group with no evidence, just lies.

Indeed. It also makes you wonder what sort of buffoon came up with the idea that Hindu God Shiva is supposed to be the Christian demon Satan. Those guys can't even get their religions straight.

reply to post by CookieMonster09


The Grand Secretary fairly recently (as of 2005) was part of reopening a Lodge that had gone defunct some time ago.
They reopened it, and started practicing the degree work as it was practiced at the time, removing much of what they felt was just wasteful extra degrees.

So, there wouldn't be much difference between the degree work.

So...If the ritual work is nearly identical, then what does it matter which Grand Lodge oversees English Freemasonry?

I mean, it probably matters to the Grand Lodge of England in London - because they would consider any Lodges outside their jurisdiction as a renegade Lodge.

reply to post by CookieMonster09


Basically, the GLoAE purports itself as "true" Masonry, and makes some claims against the UGLE.

However, over all it's not important. There are many different organizations under the name of FreeMasonry.

My point of this thread, though, is more over the UGLE's stance on the origin of FreeMasonry in relation to the story set forth by the GLoAE.