140 Dead in Muslim Riots - Western China

Originally posted by yiersan
For sure, the over majority wants a better life, and more fairness, this is why corruption one of the bigger pest in this country should be wiped out, this is only one of the among hundreds if not thousands of other social issues which would need to be addressed for. This does not mean we need a Westerner to dictate what and how we should live and/or you can remotely come close to what the general consensus of the Chinese really thinks.

I'm glad you can admit that China has major issues. This is a first I've heard about it from a real Chinese. Sad to say you still appear very defensive! It seems that when anybody discusses any country others will listen. But When China comes up it is automatically perceived as if Westerners are trying to "Dictate" to China. Sounds like paranoia to me.

At least in China when you cheat and steal from everyone, and it is publicly known, you will simply get the bullet literally". It happens during that time one of the Chinese Tycoon was caught for Fraud. And just last month the corrupted Shenzhen Mayor was also caught.

Nobody said we couldn't learn from the Chinese good for you. Having said that. What does this have to do with the fact that you will continue to see unrest from within your own country? I highly doubt the riots of the past few years had anything to do with some corrupt businessmen.

You know, one thing you are right, we do see what happens in the outside world, but if we want to join the mess what we all can see in USA/Europe? Nah, we better pass it by. Don't forget one thing, you like statistics so much anyhow, There are like over 1.3-1.4 billion Chinese, where as only 7 or 8%% or so is NON-Han, and we have only trouble with Tibetans and Uygurs who combined are like 14 million people only? Which is like plus minus 1% of the pop?

Wait a minute...

aren't you the one a few post back either here or on another thread who claimed that China had a much larger % of cultural diversity more than even the US? So how is it now that the vast "Majority" Are now HAN? Also if you are so united then why is the State so controlling? I mean if the "VAST MAJORITY" are so united then why all the worries about freedoms? I say again it's your fear of the masses finding out just how shoe horned they have been into a single monolithic system that stagnates the individual.

Not to mention the inter-racial marriages going on a daily base? So, nah, we have a lesser problem with minorities than in the West I bet. As long as the the Hans are united, there is not much you can say or do to really disrupt our stability and development.

Another good example of being a Psychologically introverted society. Again I ask why is it when discussing China you automatically "ASSUME" we in the west want to disrupt your society?

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make. It's from inside and really has no outside influence. This and the other unrest/riots are the signs of a much deeper problem one that can't be swept under the rug or just not covered on a state ran media, the people themselves know whats going on and so far not even China can erase what the people think or feel. Not yet anyway...

Originally posted by yiersan
reply to post by nenothtu

 

depends on what kind of communism, in the era of Mao it was devastating for the whole country and anyone living here, but today's communism has been long a cocktail of socialism, nationalism and capitalism. Even the national song lyrics are all about Chinese patriotism. The only bit communism I still really feel on the daily life is the favorism towards minorities, as if they are so worse off than Hans..... so is communism evil?
[edit on 9-7-2009 by yiersan]

Yes & No like everything really my friend.





[edit on 9-7-2009 by SR]

Originally posted by gs001
when americans show their schadenfreude to china, they forget what happened in Los Angeles 1992, conflicts between ethnic groups can be
instigated in anywhere.
of course in american's eyes, china has a original sin-communist leading
country, so china don't have the right to keep its sovereignty and territory
integrity, and every conflict between ethnic groups in china must be caused by oppression.
americans are shallow-brained people, that is why the harder they promote freedom and democracy to the world, the more hatred they get from the world.

I get it! I get it! you have 3 languages. Woo hoo! I'm happy for you.

Big difference between this and LA in '92. We didn't invade LA and take it away from the indigenous blacks. Might be because there are no indigenous blacks in LA. Might be because LA was US already, so we didn't have to invade. Whatever the reason, that's the difference.

I was all set to say that China ought to wipe out the Uighirs. You've sucessfully changed my mind.

China keep it's sovereignty? Sure, just as soon as it gives the Uighirs back their sovereignty.

China keep it's territorial integrity? Sure, as soon as it gives back the Uighirs theirs.

Same goes for Tibet.

I'm shallow-brained? Sure, but at least I'm capable of the most simple logic, which you have successfully led me to.

Thanks for enlightening me.

reply to post by nenothtu


No offence my friend but please or we'll end up with the Texas back to Mexico debate and a whole load of can of worms being opened. Tit for tat needless fighting.

Not that we should mind them but we're only human and are prone to get into heated arguements that overide our logic more often than not.

Originally posted by yiersan

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by yiersan
There are like over 1.3-1.4 billion Chinese, where as only 7 or 8%% or so is NON-Han, and we have only trouble with Tibetans and Uygurs who combined are like 14 million people only? Which is like plus minus 1% of the pop?

Maybe if you gave them their own land back, you wouldn't have those problems with them. It's not like THEY invade CHINA.

It was kind of the other way around.

don't you get tired of this argument again? I am tired of repeating and answering the same questions over again.

I'll be tired of it when you give a logical and verifiable satisfactory answer to it.

So far you haven't. Your claim is that their territory was ALWAYS Chinese territory, but you've provided no evidence of that.

reply to post by SR


I mean no offense to you either, friend, but Texas wasn't "liberated" from Mexico by the US, it was liberated by Texans, God love 'em, and only became part of the US later.

To be honest, I was all set up AGAINST the Uighirs, and FOR China, but these gentlemen have shown me the error of my ways, and the error of my logic.

I was pretty ambivalent in the matter.

They've educated me.

reply to post by nenothtu

another around of territory dispute again. i'm just tired
several hundreds years ago, some colonists robed a continent from native indian
and killed most of them, now they becomes symbol of justice, ironic


[edit on 9-7-2009 by gs001]

reply to post by nenothtu


Texas.


They are an independent country just ask any Texan!
They "Choose" to be a part of the union.

Originally posted by gs001
reply to post by nenothtu

 

another around of territory dispute again. i'm just tired
several hundreds years ago, some colonists robed a continent from native indian
and killed most of them, now they becomes symbol of justice, ironic

[edit on 9-7-2009 by gs001]

I think I may be just a wee bit more familiar with that particular bit of history than you are, being half-white and half-Shawnee Indian myself. I'm fairly sure that's not a line of argument you want to pursue, but if you must, you must.

In any event, it still does nothing to address the claims that China ALWAYS owned the territories in question. No one has claimed that the US always owned America, so the logic doesn't follow. It just doesn't compare.

[edit on 2009/7/9 by nenothtu]

Originally posted by gs001
reply to post by nenothtu

 

another around of territory dispute again. i'm just tired
several hundreds years ago, some colonists robed a continent from native indian
and killed most of them, now they becomes symbol of justice, ironic

Yeah..

The whole problem with that argument is from this American of native descent perspective. You will not find a more loyal people than us Native Americans. I have both European blood and Mescalero So please before you embarrass yourself further please learn about other native Americans in our history the Code talkers of WW-II and so on.

[edit on 9-7-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Yeah..

The whole problem with that argument is at least from this American of native descent perspective is that I am partially Native American. You will not find a more loyal people than us Native Americans. I have both European blood and Mescalero So please before you embarrass yourself further please learn about other native Americans in our history the Code talkers of WW-II and so on.

I know of an incident where a white guy was talking to a Shawnee, and said something along the lines of "After all that the US did to your people, you STILL went to war and fought for them? Why did you do that? Something wrong with your head?"

So the Shawnee just looked at the white guy for a minute, like he'd grown a second head or something, and finally said "You seem to be forgetting whose country this IS."



They just don't get it.

reply to post by nenothtu


LOL

# Indian tribes occupy more than 55 million acres of reservation lands in 30 states.[2]

# Reservation businesses generate $246 million in tax revenue annually for state and local governments, and $4.1 billion in annual tax revenue for the Federal Government.[3]

# In 2001, gaming tribes generated $13 billion in direct and indirect economic activity.[4]

# Washington State's 29 federally-recognized tribes, for example, contribute $1 billion annually to the State's overall economy.[5]

# Washington's tribes currently employ nearly 15,000 Indian and non-Indian employees.[6] By comparison, Microsoft Corp. employs 20,000 Washingtonians.

Originally posted by nenothtu

China keep it's sovereignty? Sure, just as soon as it gives the Uighirs back their sovereignty.

China keep it's territorial integrity? Sure, as soon as it gives back the Uighirs theirs.

Same goes for Tibet.

I'm shallow-brained? Sure, but at least I'm capable of the most simple logic, which you have successfully led me to.

Thanks for enlightening me.

how do you know all Uigur and Tibetan want independence？
just because a small group of separatists claim that to you？
long long before you were scalping indians on their ground, those area had already
been a part of chinese empire.




[edit on 9-7-2009 by gs001]

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by nenothtu

 

LOL

# Indian tribes occupy more than 55 million acres of reservation lands in 30 states.[2]

# Reservation businesses generate $246 million in tax revenue annually for state and local governments, and $4.1 billion in annual tax revenue for the Federal Government.[3]

# In 2001, gaming tribes generated $13 billion in direct and indirect economic activity.[4]

# Washington State's 29 federally-recognized tribes, for example, contribute $1 billion annually to the State's overall economy.[5]

# Washington's tribes currently employ nearly 15,000 Indian and non-Indian employees.[6] By comparison, Microsoft Corp. employs 20,000 Washingtonians.

glad to see Indian are well treated in your country.
but i'm sure that we can still find quite a few native Indians who want
independence in your country.
what if we chinese fund them, support their independence movement,
then instigate them making riots in usa？
if their riot crackdown by usa, we immediately shout 'human rights abuse, human rights abuse'.....
unfortunately great china won't use this kind of inferior tact to deal with you like you did to china.


[edit on 9-7-2009 by gs001]

SLAYER69

I'm glad ...... like paranoia to me.

this is rather not paranoia but more like we understand more what we need than some foreigner pointing, "hey you invaded those guys, give them freedom, hey, you commit genocide, human rights blablabla". this is what is going on in reality on a daily base

besides if you DID listen before, then you will have noticed I kinda started early on already claiming we are not a perfect state

Nobody said we .... corrupt businessmen.

no, it has to do with tension built up over the past hundreds of years maybe? ever since we settled and conquered those areas like 2000 years ago conflicts have been around, claims have been around, I would simply want to quote again what I had quoted, which you have chosen to not reply upon or over-read:

National boundaries are not natural. They all arise from history, and all history is disputable. Arguments and evidence can always be found to challenge a boundary.

As for unrest in my country? You will be surprised that the past 30 years, ever since Deng XiaoPing opened up and reformed China, we had never been so stable and prosperous for hundreds of years. And like I said enough other issues, and if we keep ourselves united and relatively stable, then one day we can say, hey we came out of those black pages of the end of the 20th century, and we are at least a "developed" country now. Key is that we do maintain peace worldwide, and just smash down any separatists/terrorists.

Wait a minute...

aren't you the one ........ individual.

yes, and the article show that very well, nowhere on Earth there are still 56 different ethnic groups, given the same rights and for those minorities even more rights than the major group, who are the ones being treated unfairly relatively speaking.

maybe you still don't grasps it, governing a population of 1.4 billion with a totally different culture and history than a pity 300mln, even in your country a civil war was fought

and as you like it or not, believe it or not, different voices are heard all over the places, and guess what, the current government do try to follow the overall consensus. my theory is though that for the elite and the powerful guys it is much more beneficial if the majority is satisfied, so policies are adjusted to satisfy these "vast majority" of the population.

btw, on a side note, you know, i forecast a revolution in USA much earlier than in China

Another good example of west want to disrupt your society?

Not the common people, you and other with roughly the same opinions are probably sincerely believing that you are doing a good deed by "expressing" your voice about China, or "boycotting" Chinese made goods, protesting etc etc, because you can not distinguish from what is propaganda about China and what not anymore, so I will not hold any grudges and/or blame u.

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make. It's from inside and really has no outside influence. Not yet anyway...

But I do pity those who really believe the American government is not the one behind many (not all) of the troubles. Supporting, subsidizing, training separatists etc. NED is all over the place, CIA fingerprints can be found everywhere. Plenty of sources from non-Chinese to verify this. This is also WHAT we in China among common people do see and "feel". Of course it is an excuse and tactic used by our government too to gain more support, heck it is based on some truths anyhow, so why not make use of it? I will show you a few articles in the next post.

First of all, I want to show anyone interested (especially Slayer) the real deal and only a few interesting non-Chinese articles. There are plenty of these analysis from Chinese hands too, but as most of the paranoid non-Chinese ATS members will probably discount it as propaganda, so I decided to only put a handful of Western articles here.

I do want to emphasize that the purpose of this is merely showing someone like Slayer that all INTERNAL unrest inside China is ONLY Chinese internal politics and policies issues, and at least one (Slayer) claims that it has nothing to do with outside forces.

Slayer:"It's from inside and really has no outside influence."

While we do have internal issues, but the support had always been coming from outside. For example, how a sect like the FalunGong can survive worldwide with their own FREE papers, websites, radios etc etc, without the subsidy from NED, they would have no funds to do anything.

Some reference articles for you to read on:

Risky geopolitical game: Washington plays ‘Tibet Roulette’ with China

From the “Tiananmen Massacre” to the "Lhasa Protests”

The Sino-American Relations in the Future

The Great Dragon Awakens: China Challenges American Hegemony




[edit on 9-7-2009 by yiersan]

Originally posted by gs001
how do you know all Uigur and Tibetan want independence？

I don't. I never claimed that ALL Uighirs and Tibetans wanted independence. It's pretty clear that ENOUGH of them do, though, based on the feeds I get out of China. Enough to keep China busy with suppression operations, anyhow.

just because a small group of separatists claim that to you？

Nope. Video feeds, baby! Power of the internet, a Truly wondrous thing. Looks like a pretty large group to me...

How's that Great Firewall working at blocking outgoing stuff?

long long before you were scalping indians on their ground, those area had already been a part of chinese empire.

I KNOW you didn't go there!
Accuse me of scalping my own? Nah. You must not have read my posts properly.

Edit: I just realized that, since you use Indians as a comparative example, and Indians are indigenous to North America, That's an implicit admission that Uighirs are indigenous to the area in question. Glad we got that cleared up.

(link to image deleted to avoid scripts)

Map image had no date on it, but it looked like it was probably 1850's to maybe 1900. I assure you, I was through "scalping indians on their own ground" LONG before that.

Let's be honest here. You're MSS for PRC, right? I'm guessing Eleventh Bureau.

How close am I?







[edit on 2009/7/10 by nenothtu]

Originally posted by gs001
what if we chinese fund them, support their independence movement,
then instigate them making riots in usa？
if their riot crackdown by usa, we immediately shout 'human rights abuse, human rights abuse'.....
unfortunately great china won't use this kind of inferior tact to deal with you like you did to china.

I would say go ahead and try you would be very hard pressed to find any Native Americans wanting to do business with some tyrants who deal in this manner with their own people who just want freedom.


Yeah she sure looks like a terrorist to me.
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Originally posted by yiersan
As for unrest in my country? You will be surprised that the past 30 years, ever since Deng XiaoPing opened up and reformed China, we had never been so stable and prosperous for hundreds of years. And like I said enough other issues, and if we keep ourselves united

Tiananmen Square Massacre: ‘state-enforced erasure’ of collective memory

China is observed to be suffering from amnesia regarding the massacre that occurred at Beijing’s Tiananmen Square 20 years ago. Some attribute this to state-enforced erasure of collective memory. The communist regime in China ‘tolerates no mention of the massacre.’

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[edit on 10-7-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by yiersan
we are at least a "developed" country now. Key is that we do maintain peace worldwide, and just smash down any separatists/terrorists.

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