Russian spacecraft landed on moon hours before Americans

Originally posted by jra...

Originally posted by jkrog08
Anyone heard of the Russian manned Venus mission, it reportedly left 4 Cosmonauts dead...

I have never heard of such a mission. Do you have a link or more information? ...

Very good question.

Perhaps jkrog could take that topic to a new thread.

[edit on Sun Jul 5 2009 by Jbird]

Originally posted by jkrog08
I think the correct wording would be "to my knowledge the Russian mission was not a manned flight". I mean we do not know everything, and if anyone thinks we are told everything, especially from Russia, they are beyond ignorant. Anyone heard of the Russian manned Venus mission, it reportedly left 4 Cosmonauts dead...

Like others have said, if the Russians needed their N1 launch vehicle to work before getting people to the Moon -- and ever they got the N1 working, they would have proudly told the whole world (and they didn't).

People seem to be missing the interesting real story here of the first-hand history Sir Bernard and his experienced while listening in to the Russian and American space programs at Jodrell bank. It must have been very interesting for them to have that front-row seat in listening to the history being made by the Americans and the Russians.

If the Luna 15 was manned, the people at Jodrell Bank would have noticed from the radio chatter.

As I said in another post, I'm sure their are things about the Russian space program that we don't know about, including the deaths of Cosmonauts of which the world has yet to be informed. Nobody here is denying that. We are only saying that Luna 15 -- the subject of this thread -- was unmanned.

I'm a little confused about the headline in the first article posted by the OP:

www.telegraph .co.uk

The headline reads:
"Russian spacecraft landed on moon hours before Americans"
but the narrative of the article says that Luna 15 crashed after Armstrong and Aldrin walked on the Moon -- the moon walk was on July 20th (actually 02:56 UTC on July 21st), and Luna 15 crashed at 15:50 UTC on July 21st.

So the Russian craft crash landed about 13 hours after Neil Armstrong took his first step on the Moon. The article itself has it right, but the article's headline is misleading.

[edit on 7/5/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

The odd thing about the soviet/us "race to the moon" is that there never was one.
Our(us) information about the soviet space program was so sketchy in those days that we though the soviet pogram was much farther along than it was.
Even though the soviets had built a lander, and made modifications to a soyuz to get the two to the moon, they never had a viable launch vehicle.
The july 3rd 1969 test of the N1, was just that, an unmanned test, and it failed.
In fact each of the four launches of an N1 vehicle ended in failure, most in the first minutes of flight, the longest flight of an N1 reach an altitude of about 150,000' , before going out of control.
The 1969 attempt didnt even make it off of the launch pad before blowing up.

In the years immediately after the break up of the USSR, there was an amazing openness between russia and the us. Military and scientific advisors from both countries were given acess to formerly classified military and scientific equipment and programs.
A documentary on PBS followed a group of US airforce personel as they were given a tour of russian bases and getting to look at current russian aircraft. But thats for a thread all in and of itself.
Any way, on an off day, the russian host told them he had something very interesting to show them. You could tell the officers though they were
going to be shown some sort of experimental aircraft, but they had no idea what.
The guy took them to a wharehouse and among the crates and stuff was the soviet lander the LK.
The US airforce officers were stunned, at that point its actual existance was still a rumor out side of russia.
I was amazed at how similar the us and soviet vehicles were, although the soviet hehicle was much small they look very much alike.
A testament to function driven engineering.

Originally posted by punkinworks
The odd thing about the soviet/us "race to the moon" is that there never was one...

...In fact each of the four launches of an N1 vehicle ended in failure, most in the first minutes of flight, the longest flight of an N1 reach an altitude of about 150,000' , before going out of control...

The N1 had 30 engines -- thirty! It must have been a huge engineering nightmare to get all of the plumbing to each engine working properly.

Here is a link with a picture of the first stage of the N1 and its 30 engines (you need to scroll down a little to see the picture). This article also chronicles some aspects of the 'race' to the moon:
www.aerospaceweb.org...


[edit on 7/6/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


The complexity of the N1 was its downfall.
Imagine the complexity of the plumbing alone for those 30 engines.

Since the launch facility was land locked it was only served by rail.
The N1 vehicle was so large that it had to be pre assembled then dissaembled for shipping to the launch complex, then re-assembled at the launch site.
The 1969 failure was attributed to a fuel pump ingesting a loose bolt.

The Soviets tried for a manned circumlunar mission carrying one
cosmonaut for round the moon flight to beat the US.

en.wikipedia.org...

Called ZOND (Probe) consisted of modified Soyuz capsule - using only
2 of the 3 modules, the re-entry module containing the heat shield and
parachutes, the service module with the solar panels, batteries and maneuvering engines/thrusters. Deleted was the orbital module where
crew would live/work while in space.

The Zond used a "double dip" re-entry maneuver to reduce heat and
aerodynamic stress on the system.

The capsule would begin re-entry over the south pole and skip back 400
miles into space where it then do a normal re-entry as gravity pulled it back.

Boosted by D class (Proton) booster could fly Figure 8 trajectory around
moon and back to earth.

en.wikipedia.org...(rocket)

The idea was to beat the US to the moon and score a propoganda victory

Numerous Zond missions were lauched through 1967-69, experiencing many failures with the rocket booster. Other mission which successfully
made the moon journey only to experience failure on re-entry or in
other systems - failure which would have killed any human passenger.

The Apollo 8 mission was result of the Zond missions - NASA and US government officials were concerned that the Soviets pull off another
propoganda mission upstaging Apollo. In Mid 1968 US had Saturn V
launch booster ready, sucess of Apollo 7 (Sept 1968) had proved out
hardware. Lunar Module redesign was still lagging - NASA said what the
hell, just take shot at moon to prevent Soviets from upstaging us.

Proton rocket
en.wikipedia.org...
payload: 22 tonnes

N1 rocket
Failed all 4 test flights
5 stages
44 engines
en.wikipedia.org...
payload: 74 tonnes


Saturn V
3 stages
11 engines
en.wikipedia.org...
payload: 118 tonnes

Cool montage of all Saturn V flights




[edit on 22-7-2009 by conar]

NASA Lunar Orbiter Spots Old Soviet Moon Landers
www.space.com...

I looked at the photos but I'm not seeing this probe. You can barely see anything but a few black pixels. This is not what I would call proof.

If this is the best resolution this probe can manage, why even bother. I've seen more detailed and higher resolution satellite photo's using Google Earth.

Originally posted by Power_Semi

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
Don't you think this story is interesting enough without needing to contaminate it with fiction about dead cosmonauts?

I do remember reading a very interesting article in Fortean Times (I think) about Russian cosmonauts being lost into space when their capsules bounced off the Earths atmosphere, and other mishaps.

Some brothers in Europe were recording the Russian signals - very scary to think that there might be someone somewhere just drifting through the universe, forever...

Yes I remeber the FT article. I f I can find it I will post a small bit of it.

Fascinating idea though.

reply to post by Tiger5


I don't know if you're referring to the same article, but I came across this one that claims Yuri Gagarin wasn't the first man in space. I can remember readng about this in UFO magazine years ago.

Now it can be told -- by Pravda. Yuri Gagarin was the first man to survive Russia's attempts to send a man into space.

As 40 years have passed since Gagarin’s flight, new sensational details of this event were disclosed: Gagarin was not the first man to fly to space. Three Soviet pilots died in attempts to conquer space before Gagarin's famous space flight, Mikhail Rudenko, senior engineer-experimenter with Experimental Design Office 456 (located in Khimki, in the Moscow region) said on Thursday.

According to Rudenko, spacecraft with pilots Ledovskikh, Shaborin and Mitkov at the controls were launched from the Kapustin Yar cosmodrome (in the Astrakhan region) in 1957, 1958 and 1959. "All three pilots died during the flights, and their names were never officially published," Rudenko said. He explained that all these pilots took part in so-called sub- orbital flights, i.e., their goal was not to orbit around the earth, which Gagarin later did, but make a parabola-shaped flight. "The cosmonauts were to reach space heights in the highest point of such an orbit and then return to the Earth," Rudenko said.

According to his information, Ledovskikh, Shaborin and Mitkov were regular test pilots, who had not had any special training, Interfax reports. "Obviously, after such a serious of tragic launches, the project managers decided to cardinally change the program and approach the training of cosmonauts much more seriously in order to create a cosmonaut detachment," Rudenko said.

Ledovskikh, Shaborin and Mitkov were brave men. And it is fitting that the curtain, imposed by bureaucrats whose greatest risk was to admit failure, and which shrouded their attempts should be lifted. Being an astronaut in the early days was literally equivalent to riding a million part contraption, all supplied by the lowest bidder. In the case of the three Russians, the parts were supplied by the Russian lowest bidders. Bravery has no greater peak to climb.

fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com...

While there are those that posted and asked that no one should add conspiracy to this posting, I cannot support such a suggestion, because nothing that we consider historical is so important that we shouldn't know all of the real history that the truth would provide. While being able to prove the truth is something of a challenge, there exists enough evidence to support the claim that the moon is inhabited and has been for some time.

If the truth upsets your imaginary historical perspective then I for one feel sad for you to live in such a bubble and to be so devoid of any meaningful truth involving the Moon Missions and the Moon Landings or for that matter the false space program that NASA represents in order to keep the sheeple believing in our efforts to go do what we have already done.

What needs to be considered is the fact that when the Soviet Union was in the process of landing, they had already conducted pre-landing needed orbits of the Moon and in that process those aboard the Soviet Union craft soon became aware that the moon is colonized and those that have colonized the moon are Americans and others that will remain unmentioned.

Discovering this truth for the Soviet Union astronauts when you think you're beating America to the moon had to of come as a shock to their sense of reality. In the final moments before attempting to descend, they had become aware that facilities existed on the moon and that the moon was already occupied with Americans. It can be verified that the last moments are indicating that they were descending too fast and then radio silence.

If and when the crash site is ever found and investigated it will most likely show that the craft suffered some kind of weapons strike and then of course crashed. This was necessary to keep the secret of secrets secret and not even the Soviet Union was going to disclose that secret. To ensure this requirement, it would require bringing down the Soviet craft and ensuring that everyone and the craft were completely destroyed.

Today we live with the continuous lies of what NASA portrays as space accomplishments and as long as no one truly believes that we are already on the moon and have been there long before our supposed first moon landing then the lie will work to keep Americans thinking that we are spending money on noble causes and of course space exploration for the sake of humanity.

Nothing NASA does for humanity could be farther from the truth and I for one hope that some other nation like China or India lands on the moon and verifies that the Soviet craft was deliberately shot down and destroyed to keep a most important secret dealing with what is on the moon and how long it has been there.

After you wrap yourself around the possibility that such a tale might be true, then and only then can you begin to understand that if can go to and from the moon with impunity, just how are we able to do that? Certainly not with space shuttles and all of our so called modern space craft. To get to the moon and back since it is a off world colony requires teleportation devices that transport from Earth to the Moon and if such technology needs to be reduced to something more conventional, then they use space craft using anti-gravity technology and can travel back and forth with no delay at speeds that would make a NASA blush from what NASA claims is necessary to get there and back by so called modern space methods using rockets and archaic techniques of space travel.

Liars and deceivers have manipulated our history and have fooled so many Americans into believing that we are still trying to get to the moon. Reading this posting made me realize that so many are kept in the dark and that is what those that know of such secrets expect, because any explanation of the truth would eventually conclude that Americans have for decades been defrauded out of billions and billions of dollars for space programs that we already have achieved.

While this latest article covering the Soviet landing implies a disaster that allowed America to be the first to the moon is a joke and a blatant lie. To keep that lie alive, the Soviets had to die and they did.

Reality is so much more interesting than the lies that our government wants us to believe. Do some research and if you don't come to the same conclusion then you haven't done enough research into discovering the truth on your own.

In closing I am reminded that there are many who ask how can this be? To those I say that perhaps you're not ready to know if you have to ask. If you expect someone to post all the evidence and names and facts that support such a claim, I would only tell you what you already suspect. No one can prove anything in this regard except the government themselves and to expect them to admit what I just postulated then you are in more naive than I would have ever suspected.

Thanks for the posting but telling me not to add conspiracy this noble historical event is exactly why I stated what I did. The truth isn't always what we think, but if you're not thinking, then you will never know the truth no matter if it came up and bit you in the butt.

Thanks for the encouragement to post my remarks. I would not have had the courage to do so without someone who showed me in their posting just how asleep and hypnotized your are to what are government spews as truth.

Thanks again for the posting. I for one enjoyed it very much.

Well said MaxBlack, I agree just because it's written up in history books as the truth doesn't always mean it is the truth.

Yuri Gagarin was supposedly the first man in space, but it wouldn't surprise me if the conspiracy theories that he wasn't were true. After all you can't make heroes out of dead men.

[edit on 21-3-2010 by kindred]

reply to post by MaxBlack


The problem is that you do not offer one single fact in your rather lengthy post. So please provide detailed scientific evidence for your strange and outlandish claims.

reply to post by jkrog08


aahhh aren't you dead? or am i just missing something?
but yeah go moonlanders! i still think its a sham!

none of this proves NASA put a man on the moon! it only clarifies that the USSR sent a probe, which in turn failed miserably!

reply to post by spearhead


Hey MODS this guy above is a twat please deal with his disrespect for a now departed member of ATS