Why aren't Masons secretive like the Illuminati?

I dotn get it.They put BIG signs on their temples saying that it is a temple(see my other thread)they have members on ATS giving us info on them,they make websites,publish public books?What's the matter?We barely know anything about the Illuminati, and yet, Masons are so..Unsecretive..And they dont seem to care that we know so much..

reply to post by Shake7

Watch the History Of Freemasonry In US, explains a little about the illuminati being outlawed and going underground.

freedocumentaries.net...


Its a decent documentary, this other one I havnt seen yet, but maybe will shed some light.

History of Freemasonry- Tour of masonry Illuminati, conspiracy theory, new world order, religion
freedocumentaries.net...


[edit on 24-6-2009 by Horus12]

maybe because it really isnt an evil group out to rule the world?

reply to post by Shake7

That is because we are not a secret society. We don't hide our locations or membership.

Because the lower levels of the Masons believe that it's nothing more than an out-of-college fraternity. They do civil works and get together for this or that. They probably have some weird rituals that are mostly for show.

Many Masons will deny up and down that there is ANYTHING shady going on in their organizations. And they are telling the truth--as far as they are concerned.

Of course not everyone is going to be told all the "forbidden" knowledge the second they join. And they do want new members so it's not necessarily an exclusive club. But there are levels you have to ascend in order to prove loyalty, gain trust, and prove that you are worthy of being told certain things.

That's why you hear things like "Walt Disney was a thirty-third degree Mason". He was in the very high upper levels and most likely knew some pretty crazy stuff.

The newbies and lower level people don't know a dang thing. They are just there to make a good impression on the community so that when people bring up questions about what the Mason's are really all about people will dismiss it as utter nonsense. No one is going to join the club and immediatly be told some crazy stuff because there is obviously a serious risk that someone will freak out and go blabbing all over, or, they will be into it but still blab as a way of bragging.

they have to keep it on the down-low. Namsayin? (couldn't resist sorry)

reply to post by nunya13


Walt Disney wasn't a Freemason.


I still fail to see why the Scottish Rite is so special. The York Rite is mostly ignored, as is every other Rite system for the most part. If it was numbers you'd here a lot more about the Memphis-Misraim Rite.

You're a Master Mason if you reach the third degree, it's optional from there if you want to go on to the Scottish Rite (where you can go up to the 32nd degree in a couple of weeks or a few days) or the York Rite.
A Master Mason can take part in any of the Masonic internal governing structure, naturally excluding the parts unique to the various Rite systems.

Originally posted by RuneSpider
reply to post by nunya13

 

Walt Disney wasn't a Freemason.

I have no idea if he is or not. I didn't say he was. I said, "that's why you hear things like, "Walt Disney was a thirty third degree mason".

I'd like to make a few comments on this thread.

Most Masonic Lodges are run and managed at the local level, with some influence from the Grand Lodge of the particular state. Some of the influence from the Grand Lodge is related to Masonic ritual - keeping the ritual intact. But the management of the day to day operations of a Lodge happens primarily at the local level.

In years past, Masonic Lodges tended to attract prominent people within a local community - businessmen, police officers, mayors, etc.

Over the years, this has all changed. Masonic membership has been dwindling, and membership continues to decline as older members pass on. There is apt to be a resurgence and heightened interest in the years ahead, but not like the membership increases seen after WWII.

Secondly, once a man becomes a Master Mason (3rd degree), he then can choose to participate in the Lodge functions - meetings, initiations of new members, etc. The attrition at this level is - by my personal experience - generally high.

Most members go through the first 3 degrees, then attend meetings from time to time or sporadically. Only the die-hards - as in any organization - stick it out and become the officers of the Lodge. Becoming an officer and moving up the chain of command in the local Lodge can take several years. First years as a Steward...One year as a Jr. Deacon, second year as a Sr. Deacon, third year as a Jr. Warden, then fourth year as a Sr. Warden, then the opportunity to become the Worshipful Master. As you can see, it takes several years to make it to this level even at the local level.

You are correct in stating that there is quite a bit of public information on the fraternity. This is true, and not difficult to find if someone spends just a modicum of effort in research at their local library or via the web.

In terms of the "Illuminati", I would only suggest a few things to consider. First, if there is even such a thing as the Illuminati, these will be the very, very active Masons that are involved heavily at their local level, and also at the Grand Lodge level. They also may hold leadership positions in the Scottish Rite, York Rite, and in America, the Shriners. These are the people that run Masonry from an operational standpoint.

Now, this does not take into account what I call the aristocratic families with long bloodlines of power and prestige. The Windsor family, for example, supports Freemasonry, but you won't find them attending the local Lodges. They are more active politically on an international level, but not necessarily in the functions of the daily operations of a local Lodge.

So I see two levels - First, the local level of movers and shakers within a community, many of which will be active in fraternal organizations and their local church.

Then you have a whole other level, of much more power, decision-making power, and international political power. If anyone qualifies as power brokers at the "Illuminati" level, it is this level. I would put the Pope, the President of the United States, the leaders in the United Nations, the Queen of England and all of the European aristocracy, as well as the major power brokers in the Bilderbergerss as falling into this "higher" category - Rockefellers, Rothschilds, etc. I would also put the very, very wealthy into this category, as well as the major military leaders around the world.

At the head of the pyramid is the Pope - externally at least. Internally, within the Illuminati, there are probably power brokers that are not visible ot the general public pulling strings. Icke talks about the head of the Illuminati being a character called, "Pindar". My guess is that you will never know for sure who runs the show unless you are involved at the highest levels of these organizations, so it would be pure speculation as to who actually is at the top. Nevertheless, Freemasons do occupy these higher levels - Catholic Cardinals surrounding the Pope for example.

The high ranking masons are secretive, as they are, for obvious reasons, the main ones that hold the REAL secrets of masonry.

You mean why isn't your entered apprentice next door not secretive? Hmm...maybe because they don't know much and even if they did, it would not mean anything to them or to you if they told it to you.

Think of it like a puzzle. You don't know what the picture is until you finish it. Same thing with masonry.

Originally posted by RuneSpider
reply to post by nunya13

 

Walt Disney wasn't a Freemason.

No, but he was tied to scientology. Different road, same destructive end.

reply to post by nunya13

And who are these high level Masons? Can you explain to us the structure or hierarchy of the Freemasons?

Actually Disney was only a member of DeMolay, a youth group of the Freemasons. And even if he was, a 33rd appertains only to the Scottish Rite a branch of the Blue Lodge.

The newbies and lower level people don't know a dang thing.

And non-members like you do? It's quite arrogant to think that you would know more than the members that belong to the group. How is it you think you are privy to information that we are not?

reply to post by Privy_Princess

As I asked nunya, who are these upper level masons? And how is it you know they exist, but we don't?

In terms of the structure of Freemasonry, let's start with the Blue Lodge, which involves the first 3 degrees - Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft, and Master Mason. The Lodge is composed primarily of Master Masons that have reached this 3rd degree. Any other members are on their way to becoming Master Masons.

The Worshipful Master of the Blue Lodge is the highest office of the Lodge in terms of the functioning of the Lodge's business of initiations, general business, etc.

Many Masons will tell you that the 3rd degree is the highest degree in Masonry, and that everything above and beyond that is just additional "light" in Masonry, or additional knowledge that complements the 3rd degree.

Above the 3rd degree, you can branch out into the York Rite or the Scottish Rite. I am most familiar with the Scottish Rite, which covers degrees from 4-32. The 33rd degree is a unique degree in that you have to have made very significant contributions to the fraternity in terms of time, etc. to reach the 33rd degree. Very, very few Masons reach this level.

You can also branch out into the Shriners, which is still yet another branch of Masonry.

Above all of the Blue Lodges is the Grand Lodge of the state. So, for instance, in each state you will have the Grand Lodge of the State of Ohio, or Michigan, or California, or Kentucky, etc.

Above the Scottish Rite, York Rite, Shriners, etc. you also have governing bodies for the state and/or the national bodies. The Shriners, for example, have a national headquarters in Florida I believe.

I would generally define a "high level Mason" as anyone that has been in Masonry for many, many years, and risen through the ranks through the highest degrees of 33 or higher (if there is anything higher). I would also classify anyone holding a senior leadership position at the Grand Lodge level as being a high level Mason.

As far as degrees beyond the 33rd, there is some speculation that there are Illuminati degrees above the 33rd degree. I would think that this would be where you would find the real power brokers in government, finance, business, religion, and politics - the real power brokers in the world. For instance, I would place the Pope, the House of Windsor, etc at these levels.

Originally posted by Privy_Princess
The high ranking masons are secretive, as they are, for obvious reasons, the main ones that hold the REAL secrets of masonry.

The "high ranking" Masons, which are the Grand Lodge officers, are found on every Grand Lodge website. Not very secretive, IMHO.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09


As far as degrees beyond the 33rd, there is some speculation that there are Illuminati degrees above the 33rd degree. I would think that this would be where you would find the real power brokers in government, finance, business, religion, and politics - the real power brokers in the world.

Here it becomes necessary to differentiate the actual, historical Illuminati from the "Illuminati" of the conspiracy theorists.

The historical Illuminati of Bavaria had nine degrees. The Illuminati's 4th, 5th, and 6th degrees were equivalent to the first three degrees of Masonry.
These folks were revolutionaries, not power brokers, and were heavily persecuted for their liberal religious and political beliefs. This group did indeed have some ties to Freemasonry.

The Illuminati of the conspiracy theorists is supposed to be a secret cabal of rich people and/or world leaders. Such a group, if it exists, has nothing to do with Freemasonry.

Here it becomes necessary to differentiate the actual, historical Illuminati from the "Illuminati" of the conspiracy theorists. The historical Illuminati of Bavaria had nine degrees. The Illuminati's 4th, 5th, and 6th degrees were equivalent to the first three degrees of Masonry. These folks were revolutionaries, not power brokers, and were heavily persecuted for their liberal religious and political beliefs. This group did indeed have some ties to Freemasonry.

You are correct - This "Illuminati" is the Illuminati of Bavaria - the Adam Weishaupt variety. I sure would like to see, someday, some shred of evidence that this group still exists. I have no idea.

The Illuminati of the conspiracy theorists is supposed to be a secret cabal of rich people and/or world leaders. Such a group, if it exists, has nothing to do with Freemasonry.

There are some accounts that many of the Cardinals surrounding the papacy have been high level Freemasons - This, despite the Church's public condemnation of Freemasonry and threats of ex-communication of Catholic's that join the fraternity. (Funny how that works, isn't it?)

From what I have read, the House of Windsor has also historically shown support for Freemasonry. In fact, I think you will find some of the past kings of the House of Windsor as being active in the fraternity directly.

It is entirely possible that there is a small group of power brokers within worldwide Freemasonry. There are many, many offshoots of the fraternity - I have already named a few, but there are even more than those named.

Is it possible that there is an "Illuminati" of rich power brokers within the fraternity? It's a possibility, but I have no evidence or proof of such other than that it would make a very interesting study to see if the Bilderbergers, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, the Bohemian Grove, etc. is comprised of large percentage of members of Masonry. Maybe there is an overlap - And that overlap wouldn't be all that surprising.

Are they possibly intertwined? Take Henry Kissinger, for example. Well-known political power broker, known to be a member of Bohemian Grove, close with the Rockefeller family. Is he a Mason? I don't know for sure. If he is, he probably isn't attending your local Masonic Lodge. But, I would hazard to guess, that being the renowned leader that he is, he has probably attended some rituals with Masonic content at some point in his life as part of his induction into the elite of the elite.

At what point are all of these organizations related? And do they tie to each other at the top of the pyramid? I think that's the relevant question. I mean, you are talking some pretty significant groups with significant influence and political power. Some operating behind the scenes, some are open to the public.

Generally, most Masonic Lodges tend to have historically attracted some pretty prominent individuals. You just have to look back in American history and see how many Freemasons were outstanding businessmen, innovators, leaders, and politicians. And I am talking big names, like Henry Ford, George Washington, etc.

So I don't necessarily agree that Freemasonry doesn't have ties to the alleged modern day "Illuminati" because frankly, I don't know. There are so many offshoots of the fraternity, and so many prominent people that have belonged to the fraternity, that it's not that big of a leap for me to think that somehow there is a good chance that the two are somehow interconnected.

My best guess is that you would have to carefully study the Grand Lodge of each state and see what and who is influencing their Grand Lodge Officers. Are they involved in state politics? Take it a step further. If you studied carefully the membership of the main masonic bodies in Washington D.C., and London, would you see some overlap with politics? I don't know the answers to these questions.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09



There are some accounts that many of the Cardinals surrounding the papacy have been high level Freemasons - This, despite the Church's public condemnation of Freemasonry and threats of ex-communication of Catholic's that join the fraternity.

True, but I am highly skeptical of those accounts.

From what I have read, the House of Windsor has also historically shown support for Freemasonry. In fact, I think you will find some of the past kings of the House of Windsor as being active in the fraternity directly.

Throughout the history of England, the various monarchs have tended to have been patrons of Freemasonry, as well as the other crafts. A few of them have probably been Masons.

Take Henry Kissinger, for example. Well-known political power broker, known to be a member of Bohemian Grove, close with the Rockefeller family. Is he a Mason? I don't know for sure. If he is, he probably isn't attending your local Masonic Lodge.

If one does not attend his local Lodge, being a Mason would be a waste of time. Nevertheless, for whatever reason, Masonic researchers love their "famous Masons", and Kissinger isn't one of them (thank God).

But, I would hazard to guess, that being the renowned leader that he is, he has probably attended some rituals with Masonic content at some point in his life as part of his induction into the elite of the elite.

I don't view "the elite" as an actual club to join: thus the reason I don't believe in the Illuminati that the conspiracy theorists do. Elitism is tied to money, not membership in clubs or fraternities.

Generally, most Masonic Lodges tend to have historically attracted some pretty prominent individuals. You just have to look back in American history and see how many Freemasons were outstanding businessmen, innovators, leaders, and politicians. And I am talking big names, like Henry Ford, George Washington, etc.

That's true, but is strangely no longer the case. This is not only true of Masonry, but also of other fraternal societies, like the Knights of Pythias, the Oddfellows, etc.

My best guess is that you would have to carefully study the Grand Lodge of each state and see what and who is influencing their Grand Lodge Officers. Are they involved in state politics? Take it a step further. If you studied carefully the membership of the main masonic bodies in Washington D.C., and London, would you see some overlap with politics? I don't know the answers to these questions.

I don't know about London. Here in the USA, some Masons are involved in politics, and some are even politicians, but they make up a very small minority of the overall membership. And because of the busy schedules of elected officials, even very few of them actually participate in Masonry even though they are Lodge members.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
In terms of the structure of Freemasonry, let's start with the Blue Lodge, which involves the first 3 degrees - Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft, and Master Mason. The Lodge is composed primarily of Master Masons that have reached this 3rd degree. Any other members are on their way to becoming Master Masons. The Worshipful Master of the Blue Lodge is the highest office of the Lodge in terms of the functioning of the Lodge's business of initiations, general business, etc.

Personally, I sit in Lodge with 33rds, Shriners, Knights Templar, Cedars of Lebanon, and OES. Which means your statement of the Blue Lodge only being made up of 3rd degree Master Masons is completely false. I can't for the life of me figure out how people who have never been inside a lodge or to a meeting can know so much about what I do and who is in my Lodge. That would be like me saying I know what goes on in your house without ever seeing, hearing or being near your house. Its a COMPLETE fabrication. Why dont you just go talk to some Masons. I mean it really is THAT SIMPLE!

[edit on 25-6-2009 by Level_Head]

I don't view "the elite" as an actual club to join: thus the reason I don't believe in the Illuminati that the conspiracy theorists do. Elitism is tied to money, not membership in clubs or fraternities.

Elitism is tied to money - yes, most definitely - but the elites also have social and political ties. Many are on the Board of large Fortune 500 companies, belong to fraternal and social clubs of various sorts, and are members of a wide range of organizations. It's hard to be a member of the elite if one is a hermit, lol.

I don't know about London. Here in the USA, some Masons are involved in politics, and some are even politicians, but they make up a very small minority of the overall membership. And because of the busy schedules of elected officials, even very few of them actually participate in Masonry even though they are Lodge members.

As far as politicos are concerned - Yes, they are very busy, and would not have as much time to devote to the Craft.

However, who has more power - externally, the power residing in the decision-making of the governing body or bodies? Or internally and via influence? One could just as easily argue that there are "shadow" or hidden forces at play that have an equally powerful - if not more powerful - influence on world events.

I heard a recent analogy about McDonald's. If you have a problem with your Big Mac, you can talk to the Manager at the McDonald's restaurant. But he's just the operations guy. If you really want change, you have to talk to the owner - the franchisee and/or the franchisor. The same example or illustration was used for our U.S. government - The President is like the McDonald's manager - He's not the owner. The owner is in a remote location giving orders from behind the scenes.

I will give you a couple of ideas as illustration. First, take a look at the Carthusians, one of the most disciplined group of Catholic monks, with monasteries in France, UK, and the U.S. They are a repository of intellectual wealth and vigor for the papacy - But they work and pray for most of the day in complete silence.

Blavatsky talks about her "hidden" masters in or around the Himalayas influencing world events.

Lastly, many Presidents - if not Masons themselves - have sought the confidence of high-ranking Masons when it comes to important events in political history. Masons may not - de facto - make the decisions themselves, but it is their influence - felt far and wide throughout society - that has the impact.

Personally, I sit in Lodge with 33rds, Shriners, Knights Templar, Cedars of Lebanon, and OES. Which means your statement of the Blue Lodge only being made up of 3rd degree Master Masons is completely false. I can't for the life of me figure out how people who have never been inside a lodge or to a meeting can know so much about what I do and who is in my Lodge. That would be like me saying I know what goes on in your house without ever seeing, hearing or being near your house. Its a COMPLETE fabrication. Why dont you just go talk to some Masons. I mean it really is THAT SIMPLE!

First, I am a brother Mason. Secondly, all of the gentlemen you mention - 33rds, Shriners, Knights Templar - ALL ARE FIRST AND FOREMOST MASTER MASONS. The 3rd degree - The Master Mason degree - is the highest degree in Masonry. All other degrees above and beyond the 3rd degree are further light in Masonry. Hence the term, we are all "On the Level".

I stand by my original post, thank you.

[edit on 25-6-2009 by CookieMonster09]