Science and Religion are Not Compatible

Originally posted by Kaytagg
You need religion to tell you not to kill or steal?

no, but it would be interesting for you to explain to me the moral or ethical reasoning behind why i shouldn't do them without reference to any form of higher power.

if religious thought and practice is viewed for it's philosophical worth rather than dismissed as superstitious nonsense then it becomes clear as to where it's value lies.

How do you explain the death penalty? How do you explain America's war's of aggression, lead by the republican religious christian right, no less.

hypocrites seem to be drawn to religion, jesus himself railed against it a few times. moses smashed the first ten commandments because of it, it's nothing new and i don't excuse it, but the fault is with the hypocrites rather than the bible.

Don't you think the world might be a better place if we simply use our own brains and common sense, rather than an antiquated book of legends and myth to solve our ethical, social, and scientific dilemmas?

if we were actually capable of using our brains to solve our ethical, social and scientific dilemmas, then the antiquated book wouldn't be able to cause the problems you ascribe to it.

reply to post by Rams59lb


Hi,

Some 40 years ago went through a similar process - brought up 'brainwashed' in a Catholic education . Spent 5 years reading anything and everything for an 'answer'.... Jung, Castendra, the classics... Whty? Because a one sided view seemd to be just that...

Then brought up a family - little time to think... But now - still learning....and the only thing I'm certain of is that I'm not sure!



But the main thing (maybe) is we keep questioning and trying to learn and understand.

Peace!



[edit on 24-6-2009 by The Wave]

Originally posted by Eitimzevinten
reply to post by Nightchild

 

I'm not saying the idea of us being hybrids isn't plausible, I'm focusing more on the origin of all life and consciousness not just our own. We're just a drop in the pond especially when you run the numbers concerning every galaxy in the universe (a number I don't think we have full comprehension of just yet).

I'm defining "god" as an origin for all life not just our written word "gods" pertaining to just our origin. A lot of (and increasing) evidence suggests they are exactly what you have stated earlier.

You have to understand that most people do not add the vastness of the universe to the equation. It is very possible that we are just evolved apes. That is too hard for people to accept but it may very well have been true! Other humanoid species that inhabited this planet did show meaningful intelligence. They made tools, painted on cave walls, hunted fished etc etc. Its more plausible that we are a natural species to this world especially since our DNA matches up with terrestrial life. See what I really have a hard time understanding is why people have to add the alien variable to every aspect of our existence. Even if they have visited us it does not mean we are hybrids or created by aliens. Our history could very well just be influenced by them in a non biological sense. Why is that so hard to grasp for some people?

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by Kaytagg
You need religion to tell you not to kill or steal?

no, but it would be interesting for you to explain to me the moral or ethical reasoning behind why i shouldn't do them without reference to any form of higher power.

To find out why you don't steal, do an experiment: Take things from whomever you live with, every day. Little things, big things, money, assets, whatever. See what happens. Then you'll know why you don't steal.

if religious thought and practice is viewed for it's philosophical worth rather than dismissed as superstitious nonsense then it becomes clear as to where it's value lies.

Then you are talking about philosophy, not religion. Philosophy is fine, because it is not blindly worshiped. Religion is not fine, because it is blindly perverted to serve those who preach it.

Don't you think the world might be a better place if we simply use our own brains and common sense, rather than an antiquated book of legends and myth to solve our ethical, social, and scientific dilemmas?

if we were actually capable of using our brains to solve our ethical, social and scientific dilemmas, then the antiquated book wouldn't be able to cause the problems you ascribe to it.

Due to religion's "sacred" nature, it's often prescribed in courses of indoctrination by parents, teachers, pastors, preachers, etc. at a very young age. When you catch them young, you can make them believe anything you want.

Why do you think children who grow up in Muslim countries overwhelmingly "choose" Islam over Christianity, while children who grow up in "Christian countries" overwhelmingly "choose" Christianity over Islam? Same for Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, etc.


The solution is to stop holding these myths in high regard. They are not sacred, nor are they even correct about anything. They're full of superstition dating back thousands of years, at a time best described as the "dumb ages."

Originally posted by Rams59lb


I've always believed Religion and Science were not a perfect marriage.

????

History would not agree with you...I think maybe you are too influenced by modern media...suggest a lil' history...

here's a few...

Sir Isaac Newton [1642-1727]
Mathematician, Physicist
Inventor of calculus
Law of universal gravitation
Newton's three laws of motion:
1) Law of inertia 2) Force=mass*acceleration 3) Principle of action and reaction
Published "Newton's Prophecies of Daniel"
after his study and translation of the Book of Daniel [in the Bible]
"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition."

"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history."

" This thing [a scale model of our solar system] is but a puny imitation of a much grander system whose laws you know, and I am not able to convince you that this mere toy is without a designer and maker; yet you, as an atheist, profess to believe that the great original from which the design is taken has come into being without either designer or maker! Now tell me by what sort of reasoning do you reach such an incongruous conclusion?"

____________________________________________________________________________

Sir William Herschel [1738-1822]
Astronomist. Discovered Uranus, several nebulae, and binary stars.
First to accurately describe the Milky Way Galaxy
“All human discoveries seem to be made only for the purpose of confirming more and more
the Truths contained in the Sacred Scriptures.”
"The undevout astronomer must be mad."
_____________________________________________________________________


Samuel Morse [1791-1872]
Inventor of the telegraph [Morse's sketch of the railway telegraph above]
"Education without religion is in danger of substituting wild theories for the simple commonsense rules of Christianity."
First message sent by the electric telegraph:
"What hath God wrought"
[This is found in the Bible; Numbers 23:23]
[The message was sent from the Supreme Court Room in the Capitol to the railway depot at Baltimore; May 24, 1844]
[In one letter, Samuel Morse wrote "What hath GOD wrought" by capitalizing and underlining "GOD" twice!]

www.eadshome.com...

these great men wouldbe on Dawkins '____ list' today...and probably black listed...oh well...


= = = = = =

more here: www.godandscience.org...

Excerpt here:

Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
Copernicus was the Polish astronomer who put forward the first mathematically based system of planets going around the sun. He attended various European universities, and became a Canon in the Catholic church in 1497. His new system was actually first presented in the Vatican gardens in 1533 before Pope Clement VII who approved, and urged Copernicus to publish it around this time. Copernicus was never under any threat of religious persecution - and was urged to publish both by Catholic Bishop Guise, Cardinal Schonberg, and the Protestant Professor George Rheticus. Copernicus referred sometimes to God in his works, and did not see his system as in conflict with the Bible.

Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)
Bacon was a philosopher who is known for establishing the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. In De Interpretatione Naturae Prooemium, Bacon established his goals as being the discovery of truth, service to his country, and service to the church. Although his work was based upon experimentation and reasoning, he rejected atheism as being the result of insufficient depth of philosophy, stating, "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity." (Of Atheism)

Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
Kepler was a brilliant mathematician and astronomer. He did early work on light, and established the laws of planetary motion about the sun. He also came close to reaching the Newtonian concept of universal gravity - well before Newton was born! His introduction of the idea of force in astronomy changed it radically in a modern direction. Kepler was an extremely sincere and pious Lutheran, whose works on astronomy contain writings about how space and the heavenly bodies represent the Trinity. Kepler suffered no persecution for his open avowal of the sun-centered system, and, indeed, was allowed as a Protestant to stay in Catholic Graz as a Professor (1595-1600) when other Protestants had been expelled!

Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centered system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favorite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centered system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts.

OT's interested in your take of this...

Originally posted by The Wave
reply to post by Rams59lb

 

Hi,

Some 40 years ago went through a similar process - brought up 'brainwashed' in a Catholic education . Spent 5 years reading anything and everything for an 'answer'.... Jung, Castendra, the classics... Whty? Because a one sided view seemd to be just that...

Then brought up a family - little time to think... But now - still learning....and the only thing I'm certain of is that I'm not sure!

But the main thing (maybe) is we keep questioning and trying to learn and understand.

Peace!



[edit on 24-6-2009 by The Wave]

Wow my catholic school owns your catholic school. Mine offered an advanced curriculum (i was actually far ahead of public school kids my age at any given time) and sure Catholicism was part of it but they offered a different approach to religion. They didn't try to brainwash us, they actually encouraged us to learn as much as we could so that we can freely accept or deny the faith for confirmation. They didn't shove it down our throats and they definitely never told us not to ask questions or to blindly follow the religion just because they say so. I guess your catholic school was a bit more extreme eh? What I did get from a non government controlled curriculum is knowledge of algebra geometry and pre cal before I left 8th grade. Our science program taught us high school level physics and biology and yes they taught evolution. See being created by god does not necessarily mean he popped you into existence, the same could be done through evolution.

Originally posted by Kaytagg
To find out why you don't steal, do an experiment: Take things from whomever you live with, every day.

now i've got their stuff and they have nothing, so, selfishly, i'm better off. what's your point?

Then you are talking about philosophy, not religion. Philosophy is fine, because it is not blindly worshiped.

it is often blindly followed, maoism, marxism, stalinism, nazism, capitalism, it's all philosophy.

Religion is not fine, because it is blindly perverted to serve those who preach it.

again, the fault lies with those twisting the religion, not the actual religion itself.

Due to religion's "sacred" nature, it's often prescribed in courses of indoctrination by parents, teachers, pastors, preachers, etc. at a very young age. When you catch them young, you can make them believe anything you want.

to an extent, but again, the fault lies with the people. none of the stuff you take issue with is actually in the books these people use to justify their actions, there's nothing jesus said that is pro-death-penalty, he stopped at least on incident and i'm sure he didn't feel good about his own death penalty, but that doesn't matter to the people using religion to justify their behavior.

removing the religion won't change the behavior, it'll just change the excuses used to justify the behavior.

reply to post by DaMod


Should explain - had a brief educaction in UK at Catholic schools (when young and the strap, beatings etc were permissable...) and a far better experience in a similar establishment in Oz - really enjoyed that.

Unfortunately the first - well you've read the press....

Peace!

[edit on 24-6-2009 by The Wave]

reply to post by DaMod


Its also possible that they just simple advised instead of biologically impacting us. The thing you may be overlooking is the nature of dna. Whose to say that, across the universe, complex dna in intelligent life doesn't take on similar mammalian qualities (in some cases atleast)?

When you really try to take in the numbers, the idea of advanced mammals developing in another galaxy is far from impossible. Trust me when I say that there's enough galaxies and planets in those galaxies to negate probability and statistics.

Its a huge (in substitution of pending word that would actually describe its size) universe and we don't even know a fraction of it. Ancient civilizations may have been rewarded with an inside track to some stuff we don't know yet. There may very well be some important scientific information hidden in ancient religious texts.

Originally posted by Eitimzevinten
There may very well be some important scientific information hidden in ancient religious texts.

History agrees with you!

"Scientific concepts exist only in the minds of men. Behind these concepts lies the reality which is being revealed to us, but only by the grace of God."
--Wernher Von Braun; first Director of NASA

reply to post by pieman


If you're stealing from the people you live with, and getting away with it, good for you. Enjoy the spoils.

Philosophy isn't normally worshiped. Religion is.

Religion doesn't come from god, it comes form man. It is, therefore, a perversion from the get go. It doesn't need to "become" perverted. It's born that way.

Religious people indoctrinate their kids with their religion, at a time where they can't possibly know any better, or disagree without being "corrected" physically or through dishonest argument.

The bible is full of condemnation, including pro-death penalties for things like not listening to your parents. At one point, god actually sent down bears to maul to death 40 kids for teasing some fat bald monk about his bald head.


Removing religious changes the DEBATE. There is no longer a sacred, divine writ for people to follow. That's a huge step in the right direction.

Originally posted by Kaytagg
....At one point, god actually sent down bears to maul to death 40 kids for teasing some fat bald monk about his bald head....

I'm sorry that is just ig-nor-rant! Take the time and stop reading atheist propanganda...and do some research in the original hebrew...those were not kids....

OT knows your can do better....5 WORDS...watch...@ the 2:59 point: www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by Kaytagg
....At one point, god actually sent down bears to maul to death 40 kids for teasing some fat bald monk about his bald head....

I'm sorry that is just ig-nor-rant! Take the time and stop reading atheist propanganda...and do some research in the original hebrew...those were not kids....

OT knows your can do better....5 WORDS...watch...@ the 2:59 point: www.youtube.com...

2 Kings 2:23-25 (KJV)

23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

25 And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

Nuff said.

Edit: well I guess more can be said:

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Kaytagg]

Originally posted by Eitimzevinten
reply to post by DaMod

 

Its also possible that they just simple advised instead of biologically impacting us. The thing you may be overlooking is the nature of dna. Whose to say that, across the universe, complex dna in intelligent life doesn't take on similar mammalian qualities (in some cases atleast)?

All you did was say the exact same thing I did only in a different way and as a rebuttal lol.

I agree that other mammalian species could very well exist. I understand what DNA is and how it arose from RNA and how that arose. We do know per that DNA that we are related to every plant and animal on earth biologically through our DNA. What I was saying is if an alien race came to our world in our distant (or current) history it was more of an embedding of knowledge rather than a genetic experiment. I think humans are 100% from the earth even if some of our knowledge is not.

Originally posted by Kaytagg
If you're stealing from the people you live with, and getting away with it, good for you. Enjoy the spoils.

exactly the attitude that suggests to me that there are some people incapable of using their own common sense to determine what is morally correct. follow the way of the almighty pieman and stop stealing from your moms purse.

Philosophy isn't normally worshiped. Religion is.

religion isn't worshiped, god is.

Religion doesn't come from god, it comes form man. It is, therefore, a perversion from the get go. It doesn't need to "become" perverted. It's born that way.

do you believe man is inherantly evil and perverted then?

Religious people indoctrinate their kids with their religion, at a time where they can't possibly know any better, or disagree without being "corrected" physically or through dishonest argument.

is that the fault of the people or the religion? how many times should i make that same point to you?

At one point, god actually sent down bears to maul to death 40 kids for teasing some fat bald monk about his bald head.

man, if someone told you that i can understand your issue with religion. go on, where did you hear that, i'm dying to know.

Removing religious changes the DEBATE. There is no longer a sacred, divine writ for people to follow. That's a huge step in the right direction.

yeah, maybe, maybe. a small step perhaps, it's slightly better to feel stupid and justified than it is to feel righteous, stupid and justified.

reply to post by Kaytagg


Thats campfire story hoohah. Any story is supposed to provide some kind of moral compass just like modern day fables and what not.

Look more into the philosophical aspects of the texts. Any why is the bible predominantly the only religious text that is brought up in these discussions? I think we should go back farther.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Eitimzevinten]

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by Kaytagg
If you're stealing from the people you live with, and getting away with it, good for you. Enjoy the spoils.

exactly the attitude that suggests to me that there are some people incapable of using their own common sense to determine what is morally correct. follow the way of the almighty pieman and stop stealing from your moms purse.

You're the one stealing -- not me. You JUST SAID you tried the experiment, and how you're sitting happily with your room mates (or whomever's) stuff. So that would be your bad, not mine. I don't steal unless it's in the form of profits.

Religion doesn't come from god, it comes form man. It is, therefore, a perversion from the get go. It doesn't need to "become" perverted. It's born that way.

do you believe man is inherantly evil and perverted then?

Only when he claims to be speaking the divine, infallible word of god.

Religious people indoctrinate their kids with their religion, at a time where they can't possibly know any better, or disagree without being "corrected" physically or through dishonest argument.

is that the fault of the people or the religion? how many times should i make that same point to you?

Yes it is the fault of religion. No religion to indoctrinate kids with = no indoctrination. No "divine word" no "infallible truth." Just open source science, which anybody can contribute to or change, as long as they provide proof that is peer reviewed and recreateable.

At one point, god actually sent down bears to maul to death 40 kids for teasing some fat bald monk about his bald head.

man, if someone told you that i can understand your issue with religion. go on, where did you hear that, i'm dying to know.

Well, I guess you're not too familiar with the bible, which is probably why you apologize for Christianity:

2 Kings 2:23-25 (KJV)

23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

25 And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

Go ahead, look it up.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Kaytagg]

Originally posted by KaytaggNo religion to indoctrinate kids with = no indoctrination.

Either you're psychotically hung-up on religion (which is fine, lots of people have their compulsive behaviors) or you're crazy naive.





I'm not saying that this: doesnt happen but if you think the absence (I say absence because an idea can't be banned so we have to resort to the magic disappearance of) religion will end indoctrination you're waaaay off. Are all atheists so closed-minded and one-track? I never thought of myself as religious but if this is what atheism is I might just have to "find god".

[edit on 24-6-2009 by thisguyrighthere]

Originally posted by Kaytagg
reply to post by pieman

 

If you're stealing from the people you live with, and getting away with it, good for you. Enjoy the spoils.

Even with no religion that way of thinking would make you a menace to both society and your own household. Do you not care about how your mother would feel knowing the one she has reared and loves with all her heart is using her for a quick fix?.... Oh that wouldn't matter to the likes of you. Sorry my fault...

Philosophy isn't normally worshiped. Religion is.

The definition if religion is a system of beliefs. To you atheism is your religion by pure definition. Quit using that word in a bad context when you have one yourself.

Religion doesn't come from god, it comes form man. It is, therefore, a perversion from the get go. It doesn't need to "become" perverted. It's born that way.

Prove it.

Religious people indoctrinate their kids with their religion, at a time where they can't possibly know any better, or disagree without being "corrected" physically or through dishonest argument.

False! I chose my path myself, and so do all even if one is laid out before you. It is better to believe in god and find out there isn't one than to not believe in god and find out there is.

The bible is full of condemnation, including pro-death penalties for things like not listening to your parents. At one point, god actually sent down bears to maul to death 40 kids for teasing some fat bald monk about his bald head.

Understand the culture of the time (and still of the area today). Was that religion's fault or the culture?

Removing religious changes the DEBATE. There is no longer a sacred, divine writ for people to follow. That's a huge step in the right direction.

There is still a code of ethics that you know nothing about it seems. Your thinking is that since you don't believe in god, you can do anything you want with out any consequences? Lul!!!

Ah, its comforting to know one day you will most likely end up in prison.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Both disturbing videos

Ok, then I am wrong to assert that there would be no indoctrination without religion. I'll retract that and stop using it as an argument.