Are people so uneducated as to think the world could function without monetary systems?

reply to post by MR BOB


i'm at work and do not have the funds to get to where i want to be. i never stated it as a fact. its how i think the way things ought to be

Originally posted by grapesofraft
I keep reading info from people who think that the world would be a better place if we got rid of all monetary systems. That has to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. The only reason I can think of why they would want that is because they have no money, and do not plan on getting any in the near future.

How would we buy anything that was expensive, like a house, a car, another business, etc?

How would the world function without some form of money?

Am I missing some profound sort of knowledge or something?

This statement is utter nonsense, and the fact that you made it a statement in the title of the post lends no credibility to your follow up questions. Mankind has a longer history of communal living without a monetary system than with such a flawed system.

Mark my words here. We as a species will return to this system due to necessity. Capitalism and profiteering are not desired qualities in an advanced race.

The way communal living works is.... everyone does their job. You don't get paid, you just do your part for the good of the people. In return, you have no hunger or medical costs. No wants, since all your needs are met. You walk into a store and walk away with whatever you need. Greed will be a thing of the past, and this is necessary for the system to work.

Unfortunately catastrophe or monetary collapse may force this repeat of historybefore we decide as humans to willingly adopt this style of living again. However it happens, it will happen.

reply to post by eniac

It would de-incentivize enterprise, reduce accountability (profitibility) and be an economic disaster.

Why would you think it would be an economic disaster? I am talking about the staples of society...not all corporations. I wouldnt take a luxury items such as a BMW or Mercedes for instance and turn them into a NPO. These are staples of the economyand are still free market. There should not be so much incentive in selling milk (for example), in my opinion. Salaries could be based on performance for management....hence your incentives....

I dont see how it would reduce accountability..And I dont understand your correlation of profitibiity with accountability... I would say accountability is at an all time low as of now...

Hopefully it would cut down on some of the mal-practices as well, because there would not be an overly incentivised system that creates shady pracitces for the almighty dollar... ( e.g. in milks case....monsanto)

this is how the new system should be based more on ability than credibility. now what needs to be done is we must take the basic tenants of life and base all rules around this and once there is a finalized list that everyone on the planet can agree with we enact these rules and they are never allowed to be amended. and will be guarded by those that deem themselves trustworthy .


As far as the monetary system goes simply replace it with an extremely well organized sharing/rewards system. Which basically is where mining companies and what not take the materials they gather and just simply give them to the companies that need them (and by them providing this service they are given the things needed to live comfortably(Each individual person gets to go on the internet and choose the house, car, and luxuries that they are alloted for the job they provide and how many are in their immediate family ).These companies then refine these materials and once again provide a service for somebody and of course these companies employees are also compensated accordingly and so on and so forth .
Then you can go into schooling it will basically be the same as is now except citizens are rewarded for doing well in school i.e. they can choose what clothes, toys , and transportation.. Once out of high school you would be able to go into specialized schooling or start right out working(side note i thought for a fun little thing whilst in school you could also work or do volunteer projects and be rewarded with a fun credit or something which basically entitles you to a night of going out drinking or smoking or whatever you choose .

For those that decide they do not want to work or go to school well these lazy bass turds will be given three hots and a cot no more no less until they decide they want to do something constructive with their life

also a very good guy brought this to my attention"what about the people that just want to go live off the land?" I myself would like to see this encouraged and possibly have a program that gives them assistance in getting a shelter built and farmland going


I dunno this is something I have been throwing around for awhile now and if anyone could possibly fine tune or critique well bring it on

Originally posted by grapesofraft
No I said it could work on a small scale of like minded people who are SELF MOTIVATED. This unfortunately is impossible to attain across a society or the whole world. Most people are lazy and will only work because they have to or because they want a new trinket.

You said yourself it would work on a small scale. That implies it is only about perspective and so it would only take shift in a good number to make it possible to attain something great ( I believe there is a shift in consciousness occouring, if you dont believe that then there is no hope and we might aswell just get on with fighting for our egos).

Originally posted by grapesofraftYes it is totally logical that Bill Gates should accumulate so much wealth. He and others have created software that is in use in most homes and businesses around the world. If it sucked so bad someone would come up with something better and then they would accumulate wealth"

This totally ignores the idea of vested interests, that is how corruption is so rife in business and politics. Because Microsoft is so big it protects itself easily by any number of differant means, even when the courts reign it in it makes no differance. That is the real reason why other OS systems dont get a look in, its not because Gates did anything much better than anyone else (not to take anything away from a great businessman).

Here we have a perfect example of how our system doesant work. You might have a great idea, knowhow, intensity and luck but you still wont succeed because the people that were there first have it sewn up. This could happen in any sense but on the scale of massive corparations it would never happen unless the old boys allow it.

Originally posted by grapesofraft
The question is not how many people are employed for the sake of it, that is the question that someone who doesnt want to work for their keep. The question is how many people are given good jobs to support their families, because of what Gates and his fellow people created.

You keep bringing this about people who dont wont to work up, sure some are scumbags but is not the case for all of them and the system itself is wrong and distributes money inefficiently. You cannot keep using those on benefits to argue against an alternative economy and it isnt even relative. In fact there is less chance people would take the systme for a ride in a resource based economy.

On the point of job creation why do you think there would be no jobs in a resource based economy. There is always work to be done if we look for it, and we can do it in an efficient way.

Originally posted by grapesofraft Actually, software does create a better quality of life or at least it is perceved too. It is pretty hard to have this discussion accross the world without technology. Would you prefer to do your accounting in a book with a pencil or with a computer loaded with good software? Which is quicker and more efficient?

Actually I do it on paper but regardless, you have a good point. From a real world mindset. But we should know better that the tech we have is deliberately held back for the purpose of continuing the monetary system and getting as much money as possible out of old tech. How do we know that it is technology that is cutting us off from the higher world? Its like we replace gods tech with lame equivilants. Its like the the internet is a real world verion of the Akashic record.

Originally posted by grapesofraftThe world got better because people found a means to make and sell more with monetary systems. If you want to live in a hut and eat whatever is within a mile of you knock yourself out.

Its easy just to look at extremes, I could see the monetary system as something completely evil and out to cause as much misery for humans as posible but I dont, I accept that it is a part of life, a part of life that we might need to move on from.

We dont have to back to subsistence living to make this occour, in fact that would be entirely against the point. The point is that these ideals aim high, they are aiming for a futurologists view of a utopian society, they arent saying turn back the clock ten thousand years.

Originally posted by grapesofraft The only way it makes the price go up is because it increases demand for expensive products by giving more people the means to purchase through borrowing. It is not money's fault that most people cant seem to manage it.

But I think you will agree there is a majority out there who cant, even if we have a shift in consciousness. So its best to separate them from the means of causing imbalance.

Originally posted by grapesofraftInterest is not printing money out of thin air. It is an agreement that I will borrow X dollars and since you were kind enough to lend it to me then I willl repay you X+Y dollars. Do people get forced to borrow money?

But the banks and governments do make money out of nothing, without the mechanism of interest this would not be possible. Its clear we could not reset the monetary system tommorow short of saying, everyone has 500 credits in their account as of tommorow. So we would have to use a differant system completely.

[edit on 23-6-2009 by Majestic23]

Money is not the problem.

Understand that. Money is not the problem. Money is not what causes the economic slavery we have today. Money is not what causes starvation in Africa.

If you are blaming money, then you simply do not understand money. Money helps to ease trade.

As long as there is supply and demand, you will have a need for money. It is unavoidable. Steps in other directions are steps backwards. The only legitimate way of getting rid of money is if you either get rid of all supply and demand. Either unlimited supply(air for example is free - today anyway), or there is no longer any demand. Without those 2 things, things will have value, and as long as things have value, money will be used in some form to ease trade.

Here is the problem.

The problem is that we live in a debt based economy. Money in itself carries no real value. It's value is implied as an exchange between goods. This value is known as purchasing power. The currencies going up and down is really just based on their purchasing power. As such, the money in itself is also subject to the laws of supply and demand.

The central banks are basically legalized counterfeiting operations. If you create money out of thin air, it's call counterfeit. Because the extra currency has robbed the other people of their purchasing power.

Easy example. Lets assume there are 10 widgets in the world. And in circulation we have $100 in the world. Supply and demand says based on the amount of goods and currency, 1 widget = $10, or has a value of $10. 10 widgets X $10 = $100. If you own $20, then you own 20% of the worlds wealth. You have enough money to buy 2 widgets. This is your purchasing power. Watch how we rob that without touching your wallet.

Now I'm going to come in and add another $100. Now there are still 10 widgets, but supply and demand say that each widget now has a value of $20 each. $200 / 10 widgets = $20. See that? Half your purchasing power was just stolen from you. You can now only buy 1 widget, and before you could buy 2. And you still have the same amount of money in your wallet as before. This is called inflation.

Whoever just got the extra $100, they just received half the peoples wealth. Half your wealth and half the original owners of the moneys wealth. And they did nothing of real value to get that. It's counterfeit if we do it, legal for them.

Because of this, there is a constant transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. Because the people on fixed income suffer the most. They get a certain amount of money per month. But now they can only by a portion of what they could before. They become even more poor than before. Meanwhile, the corporations and rich people who get the $100, they gain more and more.

Now, it's bad enough that the wealth is stolen in this manner, but it's not even half the story. Debt based system. Not only do they create that $100, they even have the nerve to "loan it". Which means they want to get that $100 back. But as it is a loan, they also have to pay interest on it. Which means they need to pay back $105. But as the interest money itself is never created, it would only take 20 loans of $100 before the entire original $100 was also owned by the bank. Then everyone is in debt. And in order to keep it going, they just keep adding more money. The newly created money is partly used in order to pay the previous interest payments. The interest payments get to be more and more, and so the amount of money needed gets to be more and more. As well as the prices keep going up, so more and more money is needed in general.

So we live under debt based systems, and that is the problem. Taxes really just go towards keeping the system going and lessening the inflation. But it's really just a 2nd theft.

Solution

The solution is an honest monetary system. Where this kind of counterfeiting isn't allowed to happen. Where the people are not constantly being stolen from to create corporations which then enslave the people the wealth was stolen from in the first place.

The amount of money in circulation should be proportioned to the amount of trade being done. You don't want deflation, where there isn't enough money to cover the costs of goods.

People should live tax free. Profits should be the only thing taxed, and labor is not profit. Labor is an equal exchange, as time = money. Some peoples labor is worth more than others, that's just the way it is and would be in any system.

Money should be useful and helpful to the people and it can be. But it is currently being used to enslave people. It's fine that people can recognize that, but "resource" based systems like the "venus project" are actually worse. Rather than the rich having to siphon the wealth from the people as they do now, it just outright gives it all to them. People need to understand these basic economic principles, otherwise they are acting on ignorance and doing things which are worse.

I read the first page of this, and was pretty alarmed and the forefront thinking, i'm disappointed ATS.

Take away god, jesus, krishna, zeus, blah blah blah, reincarnation, souls, blah blah blah.

What is the point of life, of all life, TO SURVIVE. Not just be happy!

If we're all happy on one money system of trading apples for oranges, and can't fund nasa with apples. We're sht out of luck!

The monetary system we have in place is good, it's going through a rough time, as i'm sure there would be droughts, and noone could get apples, then they'd say the apply system is flawed.

It's cool guys, money=happiness. Try

Originally posted by Republican08
I read the first page of this, and was pretty alarmed and the forefront thinking, i'm disappointed ATS.

Take away god, jesus, krishna, zeus, blah blah blah, reincarnation, souls, blah blah blah.

What is the point of life, of all life, TO SURVIVE. Not just be happy!

If we're all happy on one money system of trading apples for oranges, and can't fund nasa with apples. We're sht out of luck!

The monetary system we have in place is good, it's going through a rough time, as i'm sure there would be droughts, and noone could get apples, then they'd say the apply system is flawed.

It's cool guys, money=happiness. Try

With this point of view though, nothing will ever change. Money = Happiness? I think the only way money would make me happy is if I had enough to retire and chill out, which this system stops you from doing, because of money, because it is made that way. If I was wise I would just go and chill out and skip the money part.

I have never met anyone with a great deal of money that was truly happy. As said, you cant go ignoring all the spiritual factors because everything is connected and they are therfore integral. Materialism will never bring you any true happiness by its very nature, it is fleeting.

Originally posted by grapesofraft
I keep reading info from people who think that the world would be a better place if we got rid of all monetary systems. That has to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. The only reason I can think of why they would want that is because they have no money, and do not plan on getting any in the near future.

How would we buy anything that was expensive, like a house, a car, another business, etc?

How would the world function without some form of money?

Am I missing some profound sort of knowledge or something?

Isnt it painfully obvious that our current system doesnt work? The only way to sustain the current system is to keep pri8nting money out of thin air! The world could function just fine without money. We have the technology to completely eliminate the need for a monetary system. Most of the worlds problems couldve been eliminated by now if it werent for the need to PAY for the solution.

[originally posted by grapesofraft

Idealsts are just that idealists. Anyone can dream up an dea but it takes a realist to make it work in the real world. We dont live in a Matrix and this is not a movie.

This is the real world not Wall-E.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by grapesofraft]

Well well ... this is quite a discussion in here.

Let me think ... so although in the REAL world I have done a study but since I do not believe in the proper benefits of MONEY ... I am not educated?

Every reply I have read in this thread uptill now (see quote section) is the core of the discussion about 'stuff' one can or can not get with or without (credit) money.

This reminds of a quote of Mahatma Gandi who said: "There is enough for everybody's need, but not enough for anybody's greed"

A society based on the value of money is doomed and it is only a matter of time societies like this will fall.

Why? Because money-based societies are build on pure materialism. This is why people get creedy and try to collect more and more things. Useless things or things of which they think they need them.

My opinion is not to say that money doen't bring anything good but the abuse of society by the ones who 'posess' the most money is enournous and grows on and on like a huge cancer cell.

Maybe a sytem build with money could work if is was diveded better between people globally. But then again there are many more sytems that are imaginable without any hard currency.

Those WITH the money are afraid to loose it and build themselves palace-like houses with more rooms and stuff they'll ever need. They live in their own prisons afraid of losing what they have.

It's a New Aera now, people finally are waking up and see that they've filled their lives with useless stuff they often cannot even afford.

There is NOTHING that we can take with us to another world after we die. Matter in itself is only a visible transformation of what all people have created together.

Technology is fine but not by all means EVERY high develloped society has ended at some point in time. Don't have any illusions that it will be different this time in history. It's only a matter of time.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs is also responsible for our view on HOW society must be structured:
linked2leadership.files.wordpress.com...

Maslow studied on exemplary people such as Albert Einstein, Jane Addams, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Frederick Douglass rather than mentally ill or neurotic people, writing that "the study of crippled, stunted, immature, and unhealthy specimens can yield only a cripple psychology and a cripple philosophy." He promoted that people shoud work (for money) to get a better life and better conditions to get a higher status in life. This means that there is only a perfect society possible with perfect people.

I disagree. Society can only be helped when people start treating other people the way they would be treated themselves. Care, attention, practical help, sharing and loving is the only thing we need. Collecting more stuff then we need leads the focus away from what we REALY need.

Logic has the ability to exclude and kill, Love from the Heart however has the ability to move mountains!


The REAL world is full of people that do not fit in his pyramid

reply to post by grapesofraft


It is pure fantasy to think we can eliminate money, but we certainly do NOT need fiat money.

Money is simply a means of exchange - but if the value, and the supply of that means of exchange is controlled by any single person or group - then you are enslaved to them.

The value of money needs to be intrinsic, and its supply unregulated. Anything of value can be used as money - pieces of paper don't have any value unless they are somehow connected to something of value.

Gold, silver, oil, labor - these are all things of value which money can be based on. OF course there are many more, any commodity could be used as the basis of money - but it should be based on SOMETHING.

Some people are saying how money creates greed and so on - what a pile of rubbish. If someone does work - they deserve to get some benefit from it - they could get benefit from growing things they can eat (or sell, or exchange), or they could gain benefit by exchanging their labor for other goods.

The exchange of good and services is difficult unless you employ some medium of exchange - for example if I fix cars - and there is no money, and I want food - then its no use to me to fix cars for someone who can't give me food - so if the school teachers car broke down - then she would be out of luck. As a mechanic - how am I going to trade fixing her car for a service (teaching) that I don't need?

Money itself does not create a gap in wealth between rich and poor - there are only two things that do. The rich get richer and richer - and money is concentrated into less and less hands.

1) Lending money at interest! It should be illegal to lend money at interest.

THis is false or fake credit I am taking about. If you lend money to someone, then you should have an interest in whatever they are going to use the money for - so if its a business, you become a partner - and can gain or lose based on their performance.

2) Renting land.

Feudal kingdoms and serfs were created with this concept. If you own land, and someone uses it, you should be considered to have an interest in whatever it is they are using the land for. If its a business, then you will share in the profits (or LOSSES!) from that business - if someone wants it as a home, then there is no benefit to be gained.

IF you made it illegal to lend money at interest, and rent land at interest - you would solve all the problems ever created by money.

[edit on 23-6-2009 by Amagnon]

[edit on 23-6-2009 by Amagnon]

Originally posted by munkey66
indidionous tribes from all around the world seemed to cope fine with no money, the entire village shared all recources as well as materials and tools.

I think the uneducated ones cannot see a way of doing it

How funny and true. I do reccomend a book called Primitive Living Skills. It teaches a person to survive off the land and their bare hands. No tools.

Many people will see how horrible this will be when SHTF but it can be done. Just buy some seasonings for your wild rabbits and worm protein. It tastes better that way.

Seriously stock up on tons of long term food storage and hit the survival threads. I eben have one over there called "Keep your butt alive" lots of good links.

"Some people are saying how money creates greed and so on - what a pile of rubbish. If someone does work - they deserve to get some benefit from it - they could get benefit from growing things they can eat (or sell, or exchange), or they could gain benefit by exchanging their labor for other goods."

Money is a product of reaccureing waste. It is non productive in nature and devalues everything associated with it.

A Person's ability is hindered by an artificial paper system from the word go. he will have lack of education, training, medical just because this system will dictate that for the person. By the time the person gets of age to work legally he will then be put forth to apply to mundane job positions that have little productive value at all and in most cases it will be a devalue to society.

Due to currency our Vital Resources will never be defined and will be kept over blown for the sake of a dellusion to "Competition" So we will have many of that same resource in one area, with different tag names which many of them will fail and go over to rot. This especially happens alot with food.

Not only that we have actual People spending "Time" in such places to make create wasteful resources for an artificial gain on someone elses mind.

as well, Since currency is no motivational factor there will always be a poverty sector, due to the reasoning of individuals need "benefits" over the next. Meaning someone always has to be below another to make it seem like a gain society. This is nothing more then a mental disorder that can be fixed.

You say you are a mechanic ? Do you like said job ? or is it something that you only do to get by in a currency driven society ? If you are one that hates his job, and comes into it doing a mundane task half assed everyday in hopes for time to go by. This means to me you are unproductive, there is no gain. and could turn into a destructive value due to cutting corners for self rest.

However if you are one to enjoy the job each day you are there, you get up have plans for what you will do on said job that day each morning. Then your Value is much greater to this. Then we just have to get rid of the invisible wall such as, say a customer does not have money to fix thier car fully. This creates waste A. For Your Time and value. B. For thier time and value.. Time will be spent in expense to a machine that just sits there. There is zero point for this waste other then a imaginary paper wall.

Your concerns are you want food. Well take away the barrier for that and all others and you can actually enjoy your time and put your abilities more towards personal gains and advancements, since there will be no wall to stop you.

As well. Since the poverty sector would be completly eliminated, the wastfull amount of jobs that we have today would be elimated which is what 85%? of the companies, this will be an influx to productivity to advancement and areas that are needed which in effect would mean there would be more mechanics to suit that region. So Your overall personal time will increase and work hours would decrease.

So who would not want to Have access to consistant research/education gains. have more personal time and freedom. Meanwhile your work time would be much less and more productive to the society as a whole ?



[edit on 23-6-2009 by Bldrvgr]

reply to post by dannyfal


I say you should have a go at it. Maybe you should try being Amish for a while or something like that. Have fun!

reply to post by tmmayer


Dude that is quite a fantasy that you came up with. So when everything is free we wont need to account for anything? How are they going to find the stuff they need to make stuff if someone doesnt keep track of where it is at and how much they have. That is also called accounting or logistics.

Most electric cars dont go 200mph. Speed Racer was just a movie.

There arent machines that just come to your land and magically build a house for you. Have you ever worked construction? Good luck making a machine that can do half of what a crew of people building houses do on a daily basis..

I would go further, but why waste any more time for either of us.

Originally posted by Armour For Victor
reply to post by grapesofraft

 

Funny. Why not ask your self what the route of all of our problems are. What it essentially comes down too. MONEY!. Get rid of the roots, you get rid of the weeds. So, you get rid of money, you get rid of the problems.
There really isnt much into understanding this simple concept.
With a lot of money comes a lot of power, in most cases. What does someone who has power want most in their life? MORE POWER. I dont have to explain why having to much power is bad.

I dont have a lot of money, but money I do have and money I will have in the future. But money is the last thing I would want, only becuase we currently have to have it, is why I need it.

Peace!

Money cant cause your problems, it is just a piece of paper. It is this type of thinking that amuses me the most. People who blame everyone and everything but themselves for their problems. Now a piece of paper ruined your life

There are ALWAYS going to be some people with more power than others as long as there is more than one person on this earth, so you might as well worry about yourself and not about someone who has more power than you.

Originally posted by Capt. Charisma

The key to Big Banking and Government enslaving the uneducated fools in society is by making them dependent on credit, and huge amounts of it at that; as you obviously are.

Good job being a part of the problem and being too blind to see the solution.

Well it is great that you can ass-u-me, but you would be wrong. I dont have debt. I hate to inform you that you can actually buy better crap if you save instead of finance. That way the bank pays you for your money, instead of you paying them for theirs. You should try it sometime.

reply to post by Digitalo


Free energy does not necessarily save anything. It still may have to be delivered to your house and you could still be charged to use it.

Add to that the fact that it doesnt it exist yet and may never.

Also, just because once you invent and build a device to create free energy from that device, it doesnt mean that it didnt cost you even more to build the device to provide free energy then it cost to just buy it from the electric company.

reply to post by eniac


Great post. Star for you. At least you have some concept of how the world works. Please contribute more in order for me to keep my sanity.

reply to post by Spirit Warrior


Yeah that communism really kicked butt in the USSR and Cuba, cant wait until we go back to that mess.

There is no advanced race of people. That is just the product of over active imaginations and people trying to make themselves feel superior for no good reason.