Are people so uneducated as to think the world could function without monetary systems?

Originally posted by grapesofraft

Ok well that might work for a small tribe in the middle of a jungle or rain forest where all they have to buy is some food or materials for a new hut. However, I prefer my modern way of life.

So say I want to buy a 500k house, how am I going to trade for that? What am I going to do, bring 2 cars, a boat, a bunch of nuts and fruit, the dog and cat, my kids, etc to exchange for the house, and even worse what if i want to borrow some of the "stuff" to pay for it?

Do I go to the bank and ask for a bunch of walnuts or wood or something?

The Amish people are able to all have nice houses by helping each other.

The system can work as long as people forget about the ME, ME, ME, mentality and think of the US mentality.

your 500k house is only worth 500k if someone is willing to give you that for it.

The Amish get money because they need it to purchase materials from the outside world, now imagine that the community next door produced materials, they could happily swap materials for food ect and the list goes on.

the only reason this system cannot work in todays society is that people are so caught up on trying to impress their neighbours with having the most possesions that they forget how to enjoy it.

I know a person with a luxury apartment with an ocean view, fancy car, the works.
he spends aqround 18 hours a day working and he never gets to see the view.

reply to post by System


And how exactly are you going to finance the factory to build the IPODS? I guess you are going to take a train load of stuff to some town and start trading goats and camels for facilities and mfg equipment.

Seriously, do some people even know how things work in this world?

reply to post by Majestic23


Holy crap.

The current system is flawed in that it produces items needlessy and endlessly to support itself. This is clealry no symbiotic way to live in reality and it is unalanced beyond belief, causing any amount of heartache. SO whats going to happen? We just keep making pointless stuff for eternity, stripping the land of resources?

All we need is food clothing and shelter for everyone to have a chance at least of happiness. Its clear that material desires dont give us anything in the long term, we attain them and then we have to move on.

So all we should have in life is food, clothing and shelter? That is insane. I mean maybe if that is all we could think of then yeah ok..but cmon.

Interest is the problem! We get an ok house and a nice car for what? To be a slave to the banks. Its fair to say people arent responsible enough to have a non monetary economy but are they responsible enough in a monetary one. Is the government responsible enough to be able to create money out of thin air?

Do you know that you can actually save money to buy a house and car without borrowing?

I never said the government should be printing money out of thin air. I am against them doing this.

Why do you think it would not function? No possibility? You have a fair point of view but can you really not picture it working at all?

You can only picture it because you keep it down to small items. Like lets say Microsoft goes to buy Yahoo tomorrow and there is no monetary system. So they pay a couple billion dollars, because the economy sucks and so does yahoo. So they are supposed to bring in a couple of billion dollars worth of crap to trade the stock holders of yahoo? That would take forever. Now with money they can just come in, transfer the cash, and be done with it.

reply to post by theyreadmymind

Am I detecting a hint of sarcasm here? Why do you need a 500k house? Anyway, there would be no such thing as a 500k house, because there would be no such thing as 500k but that's beside the point. Also, interest would be a thing of the past, why would you still want that?

No sarcasm here. A decent house where I live costs close to 200k. Why is it wrong to want a 500k house if you can afford it?

Interest is not a bad thing. It rewards the person who loans which gives them a reason to loan, and it is meant to punish the borrower so they learn to save and not borrow.

Originally posted by Mtheory
It seems to me in this thread some people are having trouble grasping the idea behind a resource bases economy or some other monetary free system. In a resource based economy everything cost nothing, there is no trade and things do not cost 100 apples. If you need groceries you walk into the grocery store pick out your food and walk out, you don't pay for anything. For anyone who would like more information on a resource based economy you can check out www.thevenusproject.com...

Ok this is just utter fantasy. Human nature is not conducive to a whole world functioning this way. You might get a small group of like minded, motivated people and make this work for them, but you are never going to be able to live in a world where people will work when everything is handed to them. This whole venus project is like a fairy tale welfare system for lazy people.

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by System

 

And how exactly are you going to finance the factory to build the IPODS? I guess you are going to take a train load of stuff to some town and start trading goats and camels for facilities and mfg equipment.

Seriously, do some people even know how things work in this world?

In theory you have factories of robots and one day the robots build a supply of Ipods for whoever wants them, and the next day it builds cell phones, and the next day they build more robots. Like MTheory said, you basically just go to the store and take what you need, no money needed. That's basically how I've come to understand it.

reply to post by munkey66


No we dont need money for people to try to out do their neighbors. We need money as an efficient means to exchange things of value. Not everyone with money uses it to be greedy, believe it or not some people use it as a tool to help society.

Amish people do trade between one another and I have said before that will work with small groups, but even the Amish use money and believe it or not a lot of Amish people are fairly well off.

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by warrenb

 

Well I guess if you want to be communist then that might work, but who in their right mind would want to be a communist? I dont want to have to share everything. If i work harder or smarter or contribute more of what society places value on then I deserve to be rewarded more than some guy sitting on his couch all day.

So you are all for a caste system? You assume you are smarter or work harder and therfore deserve more, when in reality everyone is working hard. What if the guy sitting on his couch shoveled crap from midnight to 6am just so you could have the luxury of taking a crap?

The national education system needs a clear overhaul if this is what they are popping out.

reply to post by theyreadmymind


Ok you are just proving my point about it being fantasy. Factories are not built so one day you can build ipods and tomorrow you can build cellphones. If you have ever spent a day watching how things are manufactured you would become very aware of this.

Even in making paper, just changing colors can take several hours of downtime.

This is not Star Trek where you have a machine that can just build what ever magical thing your mind can conceive. Also, most factories run endlessly providing one product because there is that much demand even when it must be paid for. Imagine how it would be if everything was free.

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by theyreadmymind

 

Am I detecting a hint of sarcasm here? Why do you need a 500k house? Anyway, there would be no such thing as a 500k house, because there would be no such thing as 500k but that's beside the point. Also, interest would be a thing of the past, why would you still want that?

No sarcasm here. A decent house where I live costs close to 200k. Why is it wrong to want a 500k house if you can afford it?

Interest is not a bad thing. It rewards the person who loans which gives them a reason to loan, and it is meant to punish the borrower so they learn to save and not borrow.

Okay, maybe I read your question wrong. I thought you were asking "how could this possibly work?" and then you were raising the bar by insisting on having the fanciest house. But now I see that you are saying, "how can this possibly work when people are so greedy?" That is another story.

First of all, I'd be willing to live in a good house instead of a fancy house if it meant that all the poor, starving people could have homes, food, and clothing also. I would hope other people would do the same but maybe that's asking too much.

Secondly, you really have no idea what a 200k or a 500k house is. I know houses in my neighborhood that were selling at over 100k just a year or two ago and are going for less than 30k today! So what really is the value of that house? It's all meaningless!

Ya know what blows me away is that money is only worth something because we all agree on it.

In a fiat system like ours there is nothing backing it like gold or something. Even if something was backing it, so what?

It is only worth something cause we let it be worth something.

a system like the venus project makes a lot of sense to me and is the best thing I have heard of. In my life time...............I think not. People can not think past what we have been conditioned with, and I am very guilty of that. Until we all start thinking for ourselves................we are always going to be stuck with this BS of a life. Sheeple won't change and I think are holding us, humanity back from our next evolutionary step...........

Sorry, off my soapbox..................

reply to post by warrenb

So you are all for a caste system? You assume you are smarter or work harder and therfore deserve more, when in reality everyone is working hard. What if the guy sitting on his couch shoveled crap from midnight to 6am just so you could have the luxury of taking a crap?

The national education system needs a clear overhaul if this is what they are popping out.

Well if he doesnt like shoveling crap all night, it will motivate him to find a better job.

Are you saying that the guy that invents an aritifial heart is as valuable to society as the guy shoveling crap? Let alone that anyone can shovel crap, but to be a doctor you had to get years and years of extra education.

As far as your comment about the education system, I was thinking the same about your point of view.

reply to post by theyreadmymind


I am not insisting on the fanciest house. There are tons of houses that are better than a 500k house thats just an above average house, but even if I wanted the fanciest what is wrong with buying it if I could afford it?

Plus just more proof of the fantasy aspect of believing the world could function as it does without monetary systems. The world is not so simple as to simply take less so others can have more. i could buy a 20k house and give the other 480k to feed the children, but it doesnt mean they will eat. There is just a good a chance I just spend 480k to buy new guns or more food for the armies that will kill those that are starving. If it was just a matter of cash there wouldnt be starving people in the world.

I will give you a point though for saying that the value of things fluctuate. It is called the law of supply and demand.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by grapesofraft]

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by theyreadmymind

 

Ok you are just proving my point about it being fantasy. Factories are not built so one day you can build ipods and tomorrow you can build cellphones. If you have ever spent a day watching how things are manufactured you would become very aware of this.

Even in making paper, just changing colors can take several hours of downtime.

This is not Star Trek where you have a machine that can just build what ever magical thing your mind can conceive. Also, most factories run endlessly providing one product because there is that much demand even when it must be paid for. Imagine how it would be if everything was free.

I can't really say I disagree with you, except on the last point. I think if things were free you might find that people don't want them as much. You just simply wouldn't want to burden yourself with keeping and storing a bunch of stuff. Whatever you don't need or use you would take to a local store and leave it there for someone else to take. The factories wouldn't have to make as much stuff because people wouldn't horde stuff. They'd freely offer it to whoever asked for it.

reply to post by theyreadmymind


Oh now let us be realistic. Some small minority of people might do that, but most people would grab as much free stuff as you can. Just look at people on welfare that also go from free food place to free food place to hoard as much free food as they can get, even though they already get food stamps to feed their families. Did you ever wonder how some people on government assistance can manage to get so fat?

[edit on 22-6-2009 by grapesofraft]

Originally posted by grapesofraft
Holy crap.

No need for the attitude. You said yourself that the proposed economy could work on a small scale. All it would take is a shift in perception of a good number of people for this to work on a much wider scale, maybe not in certain multinationals like you make light of, but is it actually logical that Bill Gates should accumulate so much wealth? How many people are employed for the sake of it? Does that or is that going to give us a better quality of life? And they still cant make Vista Work right.

Originally posted by grapesofraft So all we should have in life is food, clothing and shelter? That is insane. I mean maybe if that is all we could think of then yeah ok..but cmon.

Take it with a pinch of salt Grapes. We dont need all the junk to enjoy life. Infact material desires give us more stress than anything. The world will not get any better in any way until people adhere to this.

Originally posted by grapesofraft
Do you know that you can actually save money to buy a house and car without borrowing?

I can and do. Most people dont it seems. It is irrelevant if you do this or not, because the people borrowing actually make things more expensive as per the current system operates.

Originally posted by grapesofraft I never said the government should be printing money out of thin air. I am against them doing this.

Thats what interest is though.

Originally posted by System
People will always abuse the system. They look for things to exploit to make their life a little easier. This will be the case if we do away with money. Small societies could work well if we filter out this type of person. But there are simply too many people in the world for this to work on a global scale.

I disagree. In abundance, what would be the point of "exploiting" things? I mean... How would you do it?

If everyone may have anything they want...I can't see what's to exploit.

reply to post by Majestic23


No I said it could work on a small scale of like minded people who are SELF MOTIVATED. This unfortunately is impossible to attain across a society or the whole world. Most people are lazy and will only work because they have to or because they want a new trinket.

but is it actually logical that Bill Gates should accumulate so much wealth? How many people are employed for the sake of it? Does that or is that going to give us a better quality of life? And they still cant make Vista Work right.

Yes it is totally logical that Bill Gates should accumulate so much wealth. He and others have created software that is in use in most homes and businesses around the world. If it sucked so bad someone would come up with something better and then they would accumulate wealth.

The question is not how many people are employed for the sake of it, that is the question that someone who doesnt want to work for their keep. The question is how many people are given good jobs to support their families, because of what Gates and his fellow people created.

Actually, software does create a better quality of life or at least it is perceved too. It is pretty hard to have this discussion accross the world without technology. Would you prefer to do your accounting in a book with a pencil or with a computer loaded with good software? Which is quicker and more efficient?

Take it with a pinch of salt Grapes. We dont need all the junk to enjoy life. Infact material desires give us more stress than anything. The world will not get any better in any way until people adhere to this.

The world got better because people found a means to make and sell more with monetary systems. If you want to live in a hut and eat whatever is within a mile of you knock yourself out.

I can and do. Most people dont it seems. It is irrelevant if you do this or not, because the people borrowing actually make things more expensive as per the current system operates.

The only way it makes the price go up is because it increases demand for expensive products by giving more people the means to purchase through borrowing. It is not money's fault that most people cant seem to manage it.

Interest is not printing money out of thin air. It is an agreement that I will borrow X dollars and since you were kind enough to lend it to me then I willl repay you X+Y dollars. Do people get forced to borrow money?

Ups and downs of the system is pretty much easy to see. I don't think it would be much popular though without any advancement in andriod technology to front some major loads.

Values.

* extreme condensing of Resources .. We would not need 6 different companies makeing the same product just to fight one another, while the remainder of the non bought products go to rot. We can statisitcally determine what areas need what quantity and when.

Things such as cell phones, can be given and tracked and updated per person systematically.

* Building/structures/Factories can be reused maintained and demolished and rebuilt. land would not be over built as it is now, there would be no value and need. Each factory will just be upadated to the next phase for use as a regular productive unit. Peoples homes could be restructured or rebuilt to meet upcomeing needs and codes.

* education rise, overall populace would have higher degrees of knowledge and resources to obtain knowledge at hand for a better working force. Those gifted in engineering (Not everyone is) would have free ability to expand and progress at faster rates. Technology would literally soar into what we can actually do.

* Ridence of the poor sector. Those in poverty liveing in food deprived areas would be able to shipped out and given aid, over time this type of poverty would be elimated and transitioned to a productive work force. Such a spike would mean less hours per person needing to add to a work force. The more people, the less need on hours per person, more freedom to thier time off.

Quite a bit more but will move on.

The Down side.

* Vanity, Uniqueness would be a major tumult.. Its like saying i Like this MP3 player looks and design better then this IPOD.. which we have today. Competition does have its values to some point. But then again this could be alotted only to personal likes.

* Job allotments. This is something that can be fixed. As said per the andriod technology we could have machines work, or technological advancements in dealing with less unwelcomed areas. That people would generally not want to do.

But crazily enough, You think these sectors would be high money paying jobs today, in which they are not. A executive who does nothing but plays golf randomly throughout the day is makeing more then person drudgeing out septictanks for random peoples homes. This is the failure of the money system.

That and we can better place individuals to thier skills and likes. Freedom of choice would still be able to be maintained. those areas that lack we can shift engineering to solve.

* Major ability to have the populace tracked and governed, Abuse from supposed officials (Do not see the need of a goverment system though) This is my major concern with this. its a productive slave system if allowed a "head" of people to be a decideing factor.. In which this does not need to be at all, can have a simple voteing system even if we maintain the computers are not used to calculate votes (We should not use them in our system now do to obviouse reasons, our elections are rigged)

reply to post by Amaterasu


There is no system that will allow everyone to have everything that they want. We do not live in a magical land of unlimited, never ending resources.