Can matter actually exist? Nope!

Ok! My first thread so I hope it doesn't bomb. I've did a few quick searches on this subject, and have found no philosophical discussions on it. I'm going to throw out some ideas I've read and become partial to on the subject. I look forward to replies of all kinds!

Look around! You will see all kinds of things. Chairs, walls, tables, your computer, and even other people perceiving the same exact things as you! Do these things really exist? Is it really crazy to say that truth would have that none of this exist at all? How could that be? Won't these things still be existing even if no one were in the room to perceive them? It isn't like matter simply vibrates in and out of reality when someone comes along to perceive it. That is just plain absurd!

So how does this matter work? How come things appear a certain shape, size, and color at a certain distance, and then completely different at another? Is it possible that that this matter is totally only mind-dependent? Meaning that all matter is dependent on us perceiving it through our senses? What is matter without the mind? What is color besides but various degrees of light? Isn't color just our eye, mind, and prism? If colors were real properties wouldn't they admit no alteration, as some living things in nature can perceive things we cannot?

What about sound? Isn't it just vibrations in the air beating on our ear drums? Doesn't sound need the mind for us to perceive it? How would it exist without the mind? The same for touch, taste, size, and motion.

Our sense of touch is always either pain or pleasure. Is either of those only just nerves sending signals to our brains? A perfect example of this would be putting one hand in a freezer, and the other in the oven. Then dip them both into a tub of water. Wouldn't the water appear cold to the hand which was heated and warm to the hand which was frozen? How can the water be both hot and cold? It can't. It is merely our mind creating the illusion of hot/cold and pain/pleasure.

How about size and motion? Doesn't something appear different to a fly then to a human? How if size is a independent characteristic without the mind? How about motion? If someone travels three miles at one mile an hour, and another perceives the same speed as one mile three miles per hour, who would appear to whom is going faster?

So, lastly is what George Berkley called his Master Argument. This idea is attempted to show no object can ever exist outside of the mind, and to even think so is inconceivable. Try and think of an object unconceived. Did you do it yet? Nope! Because soon as you try you have conceived of it!

There is a lot more to this argument of matters non-existance. I didn't want to have you guys reading a novel so I'll part here. I look forward to replies on the subject.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by Xtinguish]

Good first thread Xtinguish. Have a star and a flag for your deep thought. It reminds me of something I thought of a while ago. Matter is made up of atoms with electrons swirling around the nucleus, when we push against something else, our electrons dont actually collide with the electrons of the objects we are pushing. Since the electrons both have a negative charge they repel each other.

So technically if i'm holding an apple, it is really floating above my hand due to the electromagnetic force! And with that said we have never touched anything in our entire lives!!!

This hurts my brain!
See ya around
-E-

Edit to add this link that explains the mumbo jumbo I just spouted above
Whats in a touch? ...Nothing!


[edit on 22-6-2009 by MysterE]

reply to post by MysterE


Thanks! It indeed does hurt the mind, but the feeling of realization that comes with deep thinking is damn well worth it.

what you fail to understand is that matter is a combination of energy

have a nice day

Oh and read more books


Matter is not a single object but a combination of its parts "energy" ; )

that is why matter is energy ect and vise versa.

Hope that helps

reply to post by MysterE


well you do but you only feel its gravity

you do hold things but the sensation of feeling is only as you pointed out your own electicness feeling the other

But matter is the whole of its some parts

So in short

matter is real just like your body is real

You are made from pure energy, zoom out it becomes matter if you get my drift?

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger
what you fail to understand is that matter is a combination of energy

have a nice day

Oh and read more books

Matter is not a single object but a combination of its parts "energy" ; )

that is why matter is energy ect and vise versa.

Hope that helps

Ok matter is combination of energy. What allows us to perceive it?

Originally posted by Xtinguish

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger
what you fail to understand is that matter is a combination of energy

have a nice day

Oh and read more books

Matter is not a single object but a combination of its parts "energy" ; )

that is why matter is energy ect and vise versa.

Hope that helps

Ok matter is combination of energy. What allows us to perceive it?

Our physical reality of course.

In our physical reality we can percieve things in our physical reality.

Makes sense?

The main topic you are diving into right now is quantum mechanics, I know this because I've been studying it extensivly lately

I think Schrödinger's cat will help you understand the concept you are talking about:

Wikipedia: Schrödinger's Cat

The cat is the box is both alive and dead. It does not become alive or dead until we look in the box. Why? Because in our physical reailty, we are unable to percieve that the cat is actually both alive and dead at the same time.

The reason we cannot see this mixture of realities lies in quatum states (Further Reading: Heat Bath).

hope this makes sense!

cheers


EDIT: this is hard to understand without a basic understanding of quantum superposition, but the skinny version is - when only dealing with two realities (a live cat reality, and a dead cat reality), (I think there is an infinite number of realities), then each reality, is stacked on top of each other, and the reason this can happen, like you said is because matter DOESNT exist, as we can percieve it. Each position is superpostioned on top of itself, and any interaction between realites that occurs can occur with quantum entanglement and non-locality (and heat bath, linked above is the reason they don't "mix").


....this is why the cat is both alive and dead at the same time.

In our physical reality, only ONE of these realities exists, which leaves one of these states of matter NOT EXISTING!



[edit on 6/22/2009 by dviper785]

Originally posted by dviper785

In our physical reality we can percieve things in our physical reality.

Makes sense?

I think I have a basic understanding of quantum mechanics, or I like to anyway. I understand what your saying, but the point I (or Berkley) am making is the reality which is perceived. Whatever is not perceived by perceiving the state of the cat is not what I am saying doesn't exist. I am saying the cat, the box, and the room doesn't. I'll explain a little further.

In our physical reality we can perceive things in our physical reality. How?

Is it simply a physical brain perceiving a physical reality? I'll stick with color.

Take a red and yellow tulip. Does the matter, or even the energy within this matter make this tulip red and yellow? How? If the matter, or energy of this object makes this tulip red and yellow shouldn't the red and yellow be constant? If I take this red and yellow tulip under a microscope, is it still red and yellow? Why not? Or...

Is this red and yellow, or even the tulip itself made up of an idea perceived in me and not the tulip. Therefore matter; which is defined as: 2 a: the substance of which a physical object is composed b: material substance that occupies space, has mass, and is composed predominantly of atoms consisting of protons, neutrons, and electrons, that constitutes the observable universe, and that is interconvertible with energy. Cannot be in existence, no?

So, why do I see a tulip? Why do you see a tulip? What shapes it? George Berkley (Where I've been getting this idea from) says nothing exist in the world but ideas. It's our idea of a tulip in our own consciousness that brings this matter like object to some sort of existence/non-existence.

Where do ideas come from? Berkley says ideas come from the ultimate perceiver, or God. All of our ideas come from God, the one who conceives and perceives all things. This is why nothing is unconceived because God is always perceiving it (and why we can't conceive of something unconceived). Our ideas of the world are our sensations and what we immediately perceive all come from God.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by Xtinguish]

Originally posted by Xtinguish

Originally posted by dviper785

In our physical reality we can percieve things in our physical reality.

Makes sense?

I think I have a basic understanding of quantum mechanics, or I like to anyway. I understand what your saying, but the point I (or Berkley)

...more...

ideas come from? Berkley says ideas come from the ultimate perceiver, or God. All of our ideas come from God, the one who conceives and perceives all things. This is why nothing is unconceived because God is always perceiving it (and why we can't conceive of something unconceived). Our ideas of the world are our sensations and what we immediately perceive, and all ideas come from God.

You're basically confirming more ideas of quantum and metaphysics, and what I said above as well.

Take for example our higher self, which is not confined to the physical reality we are in. Higher self includes our thoughts - and if we see a tulip in our physical reality, where must our thoughts about it be? In our physical reality. I believe that all matter is percieved by thoughts, which I guess would be the same thing as saying ideas, as you are. The reason it's unifrom across our race, is because our race is uniform with physical reality. You say you have a basic understanding of quantum physics, well quantum physics is based off probabilities.

Now, if everyone believes (their ideas/thoughts) a red and yellow tulip is red and yellow, then what is the probability that tulip will be red and yellow in our physical reality?

I'm thinking it's gonna be read and yellow! And because of this principle, it's going to be red and yellow under a microscope, or not under a microscope, in our physical reality.

Same thing as the room and the box, in our physical reality, it's going to a room, and a box.

God/Conciousness = interchangeable! All humans are a piece of the individual conciousness - which is God, more or less - which is where all of our thoughts comes from - which in turn creats the physical reality.

Think of perception as the electromagnetic spectrum. At a unique frequency, we see a unique perception/color(eg: visible light)/wave(eg: gamma,radio,x-ray). In the physical reality portion of the spectrum, we percieve the same things, across the physical reality. Like the red and yellow tulip, and like if the cat is ethier dead or not dead, not both.

The matter that we can percieve is limited by the reality that we are in, or basically the portion of the "electromagnetic spectrum" that we are looking through. Perhaps in a parallel reality the tulip is blue, and green. Much like the cat is alive in this reality, or dead in the "tulips are blue and green" reality.

So yes, I agree! Matter does not exist! We percieve different things in different realities. What we perciece depends on what we beleive and what we beleive depends on what we know from conciousness/God and our higher selves (thoughts).

If we believe the tulips are red and yellow, then they will be red and yellow no matter how close you are looking at it.

The reason that the blue and green tulip does not "bleed through" into our reality is because our physical reality is in a quantum state - (remember: heat bath), and the other reality is as well. Per physics, we can't perceive the blue gree tulip b/c of the heat bath, and lack of energy, aka: heat, transfer.

How do I know these two realities are superpostioned on top of each other?

Two words.

FREE WILL

We have free will - which means at any time, we can change our beliefs and the new physical reality that we now believe in, is quatum superpositioned right next to us to start percieving.

Without quatum superposition, free will is a myth.

So yes, the matter of tulips, in this reality, is the colors red and yellow!

reply to post by dviper785


Awsome post! You've managed to make my physical mind tell my physical self that is hurting! Good dose of deep though and much appreciated.

I do have a question though.

If I'm understand your definition of free will correctly--why can't we make the tulip appear green and purple? Why can't we make a table soft and a pillow hard? Who set's these rules of nature? This is what I think Berkley's main point is and probably mine. God.

Originally posted by Xtinguish
Why can't we make a table soft and a pillow hard? Who set's these rules of nature?

We did. It's just what they are made out of. If we made tables out of cotton we couldn't put plates on it, and if we made pillows out of timber then we wouldn't be comfortable.

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger
reply to post by MysterE

 

well you do but you only feel its gravity

you do hold things but the sensation of feeling is only as you pointed out your own electicness feeling the other

No, literally you are not holding anything, as I said earlier you cannot touch anything because, as I said earlier, when the electrons get close they repel eachother because they have the same charge (like a magnet). It is not the gravity you feel, the gravity allows it to have "weight" but it is actually, as I said earlier, the electromagnetic force between electrons you feel.

See provided link for further info

-E-

Originally posted by Nventual

Originally posted by Xtinguish
Why can't we make a table soft and a pillow hard? Who set's these rules of nature?

We did. It's just what they are made out of. If we made tables out of cotton we couldn't put plates on it, and if we made pillows out of timber then we wouldn't be comfortable.

Ah! Haha. Right! I gave the abstract idea. Ok replace table with timber and pillow with cotton.

Originally posted by Xtinguish

Originally posted by Nventual

Originally posted by Xtinguish
Why can't we make a table soft and a pillow hard? Who set's these rules of nature?

We did. It's just what they are made out of. If we made tables out of cotton we couldn't put plates on it, and if we made pillows out of timber then we wouldn't be comfortable.

Ah! Haha. Right! I gave the abstract idea. Ok replace table with timber and pillow with cotton.

Yes this all comes back to quantum mechanics as well.

If you REALLY believe, that you can make a sturdy table out of cotton, like REALLY believed it, then, per quatum physics, you would be in a reality where (EDIT: you would be percieving that...) sturdy tables are made out of cotton.

The complete concept of a study table being made out of timber would be completely foreign to you, just as a sturdy table made out of cotton is so foreign to us.

Because of our beliefs, a sturdy table made of cotton simply can't exist in our physical reality. NOT with the human races current beliefs anyways.

This is where miracles come in.

Say, Jesus was real, and say, he did walk on water. He walked on water because HE BELIEVED HE COULD.

Therefore, he walked on water in his physical reality - and has not at all deviated from his beliefs.

Now try to convince the human race that he walked on water...

*cricket*cricket*cricket*

WE set the limits to our physical reality, through and through, but an infinite amount of alternate realites are quantum superpositioned on top of us ready for free will to change our beliefs and take the reigns over a new found perception - created from our new beliefs.

Religion:
-Anything is possible if you believe in God.
-God is always with you.
-God is always listening and may answer your prayers.

Folk Wisdom:
-You can do anything if you put your mind to it.
-You can do anything if you believe in yourself.

Ancient Alchemists:
-I can turn lead into gold. (Has happened in labs)

The Law of Attraction:
-You can have anything you want if you believe you can attract it to yourself.

WE SET all the limits of nature through our beliefs.

So until you can convice the human race that pillows arn't soft, they are still going to be soft.

PS: I like the reality with soft pillows.

EDIT 2: Remember, we can't percieve the tulips that are red and yellow, or blue and green in the same physical reality because each color set of the tulip is in a different reality, which is in a different quantum state, and because they are in different quantum states, they CANNOT interact or "bleed through." (Remember: heat bath) QUANTUM ENTANGLEMENT - Red and yellow tulips are entangled non-locally (across realities) with the blue and green tulips - so if we have a belief about one of them, this influences our belief on the other. (quantum entanglement = influencing other matter/energy/particles AT A DISTANCE [non-locality])

....soooo what I'm saying is - Religion is provable through QUANTUM PHYSICS.

It's the same thing as folk wisdom and the law of attraction.

wow that felt good.

[edit on 6/23/2009 by dviper785]

[edit on 6/23/2009 by dviper785]

reply to post by Xtinguish


Eh, if you take a few freshmen level courses in physical sciences, pretty much all your questions/comments will be answered/explained.

Good post, though. It's more important to have a good imagination than be a bookworm. The bookworm aspect needs to be married to your imaginative, creative side, though, otherwise you'll stay years behind what the mainstream already knows.

Originally posted by Kaytagg
reply to post by Xtinguish

 

Eh, if you take a few freshmen level courses in physical sciences, pretty much all your questions/comments will be answered/explained.

Good post, though. It's more important to have a good imagination than be a bookworm. The bookworm aspect needs to be married to your imaginative, creative side, though, otherwise you'll stay years behind what the mainstream already knows.

which is how quantum mechanics was born

linear physics is for politicians and priests!

Thanks for the replies! Much appreciated.

As I am now confused even more now. How can our mere belief create electrons? I thought quantum physics was the probability wave of a electron showing up. This is if I am following you correctly, which is our consciousness creates our reality on a quantum level. With this belief, and humans belief in say...Revelations. Would they, on a quantum level, be creating it? I just don't see how this is possible.

For one physics is a third person perspective on reality while mystical disciplines are explicitly 1st-person approaches. Can a third person perspective get you enlightenment or a first person perspective find you an asteroid? What I am saying is your placing physical characteristics to enlightenment, and I've always found enlightenment timeless, formless, and eternally unchanging. I.E. If you join a theory of Buddha to physics and disprove it, is Buddha no longer enlightened?

reply to post by Xtinguish


How about keeping everything the way it was, that everything is really as it appears and is as simple as it looks and sounds.

That reality is as what you see and nothing more.

Would your life be devoid of hope and crumble then?

KISS

reply to post by postmeme


Impossible IMHO.

How can this be if everything we see, smell, touch, and hear is all mind-dependent? Meaning it cannot exist without the mind. If these things are ideas, what is the physical mind? Is that an idea within an idea perceiving an idea? That's absurd.

With deep thinking I think anyone will find it impossible that matter is simply all that exist, in fact it has taken me in the opposite direction.

[edit on 23-6-2009 by Xtinguish]

reply to post by Xtinguish


You seem some what confused?

Matter is a word we use to describe the physical makeup of the solid stuff on a level we can see and interact with.

The underlying property of Mater is energy but with this comes your mind.

Quantum physics is about trying to understand the transfer of matter into energy and energy into matter

Its complex subject because both are in correlation with each other.

you do not get one without the other

Now if you think there is something more to it like your mind spirit or any other nature of this beast you call life

you are correct there is....

But you will hard pressed to find it as you did not create it.. it created you

Arrogance of humans is one of many flaws.

Like James bond movies: You only need to know what you need to know

Live with it