The Incorruptables: Another Catholic Lie?

Hi ATSers,
after a heated conversation with a neighbour whom is strict Catholic, I decided to look into the enigma of incorruptability.
He pulled this 'card' siting 'The Incorruptables' as the 'Smoking Gun', proving within a doubt that Catholic faith was indeed results proven; The Incorruptables as proof!!!???
Having a background in Funeral and Mortuary work; I found this concept intersting, if not equally ridiculous.
Here is a definition from Wikipedia:

Incorruptibility is a Catholic and Eastern Orthodox belief that supernatural intervention allows some human bodies to not undergo the normal process of decomposition after death. Bodies that reportedly undergo little or no decomposition are sometimes referred to as incorrupt or incorruptible (adjective) or as an incorruptible (noun). Although it is recognised as supernatural in Catholicism, it is no longer counted as a miracle in the recognition of a saint.[1] Incorruptibility is seen as distinct from the good preservation of a body, or mummification. Incorruptible bodies are often said to have the Odour of Sanctity, exuding a sweet and pleasant aroma. As of yet, none of these cases have been verified scientifically.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Catholics are fond of producing artifact, to somehow prove that their diabolical attraction to anything resembling supernatural activity that can be sited as a 'miracle'. This preoccupation has been a favorite of the C.Church since its conception in 325 AD.

Emperor Constantines mother, Empress Helena wanted all of the Holy sites to be identified and marked with a church or shrine. She sent out teams of investigators with the instruction not to return until they had discovered every location and artefact from the Burning Bush to the True cross itself!

Christs tomb ws duly found in Jerusalem, under Jupiters Temple, and the site of the Crucifixion identified as being close by.
The very spot where Mary Magdalene heard the 'Good News' of ressurection was marked with a large star- 300years after it had all happened, and 250years after the Romans had destroyed the city!!!

Another great one is the 'Turin Shroud', and the lesser shroud called a 'Veronica'.

And I could site many more examples, but for now, lets again look at the Incorruptables. Wax masks, and necessary routine repairs upon these corpses.........PLEASE!!!! Here is a few links for the thinking persons amusement


skeptoid.com...


www.overcomeproblems.com...

Mod Edit: External Source Tags – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 19/6/2009 by Mirthful Me]

first of all....

you were a mortician? i may have lots of questions regarding that field of work...

but on to the topic at hand.

ive heard this kind of stuff before and i find it fscinating, but as you said ridiculous. i would expect popes to be "incorruptable" or something. i would be interested in inspecting the non-decomposed bodies. i shall look into this topic in more depth. Thank you.

Not to derail the topic too much, but I was reminded of the even more bizzare (to me) practice of "Self-mummification" carried out by certain priests of a particular Buddhist sect in Japan over a period of ten years.

Shingon Priests and Self-Mummification

The practice of self-mummification seems somewhat macabre to today’s civilized population. However,for some sects of Buddhist priests, it was a form of further enlightenment. Many of these priests voluntarilywent through a ten-year gruesome process of self-mummifying, believing that extreme physical pain and denial created an opening to a higher spiritual level, the ultimate attainment of “passing into the state of nirvana.”

The process of self-mummification is broken down into three 1,000-day periods. Each period ischaracterized by physical and mental changes caused by phase-specific austerities and excruciating pain.The process is not some mystic secret, but rather a calculated scientific means for ridding the body ofmaterial that cannot cross over into nirvana. In the first phase the priest is restricted to a diet of only nuts and grains surrounding the temple complex. During this time the practitioner endures extreme hardships, such as meditating under icy cold mountain streams for hours on end. “Japan is a mountainous country.”Therefore, most of the Shingon temple complexes are in the proximity of large sacred mountains.

More at source (PDF file):
www.agorajournal.org...

Mod Edit: External Source Tags – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 19/6/2009 by Mirthful Me]

i found this site talking about the miracle of the incorruptables and has lots of pictures and descriptions of who the "incorrupt" are. i would venture a guess that many arent as "incorruptable" as they are claimed to be.

www.overcomeproblems.com...

also, they all seem to be stored in airtight glass boxes. (for the most part anyways)

[edit on 19-6-2009 by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest]

reply to post by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest


Hi Electric....., this is actually a link I have given in the OP also.
You fortify my point, it simply a load of BS.
These bodies have been found to not only be Embalmed, but as you have mentioned, sheltered from the elements in the artificial environment of their own self-contained glass cases.
Not only that, but pristene wax masks have been fashioned for the faces, as to give the viewing public a more wholesome and persuasive viewing experience!!
Where does this church get off

The incorruptibles aren't a lie. They're real. The glass is only so that dust doesn't collect on them, and people can't get in and mutilate the bodies. I'm pretty sure that they're not protected in air-tight conditions. Besides, even if they were, think of this: there have been people who were buried in air-tight coffins, and yet still in states of decay when dug up. Yet, these saints were found to be fully intact when their bodies were dug up.

Through history, the bodies of a considerable number of deceased Catholic Saints and other blessed persons, have not undergone the normal processes of disintegration. Without any kind mummification or embalming methods, their corpses have thus remained incorrupt, a few even after 1500 years. The accounts of incorruptible bodies are a part of Christian history from the first century right through to the 21st.

Many of those, whose bodies have been found incorrupt, had died either by violence or diseases, conditions which normally would encourage the disintegration processes rather than preserve the bodies. Some had been buried in close proximity to other bodies that decomposed normally. Some had been consigned to the bare earth. Others survived burial in such damp conditions that their clothes rotted off their intact bodies. Some had been lying in lime, water or left in the open. But apparently unaffected by exterior influences, the bodies were found preserved as if they were still alive.

...

Because of the Vatican’s quite strict canonization process, these exhumations have usually been witnessed with oaths and affidavits by ordinary working people as well as
respectable doctors and medical specialists. The phenomenon is therefore among the most thoroughly documented of all alleged miracles.

Read more here - pdf file: www.thecatholicheart.org...

Some do decompose after a while, though, like St. Charbel Makhlouf. His body didn't decompose for 67 years, but then started to decompose after that time period. Others are just decomposing at a much slower rate than human bodies really do.

Also, there are some incorruptibles, like St. John of the Cross, who were even sprinkled in lime juice to ENCOURAGE decay, and still are incorrupt!
www.helium.com...

St. Cecilia, the first incorruptible, was born in Rome, and died in 177 A.D. at Rome; her body was found incorrupt in 1599.
www.upholdingtradition.com...

For more information on the subject, read the book The Incorruptibles: A study of Incorruption in the Bodies of Various Saints by Joan Carroll Cruz.

[edit on 19-6-2009 by MoonChild02]

hi/

I could also go onto say what I think is DIABOLICAL....but thats the Devils buisness!

Who cares what the 'wiki' says!
What did people refer to before there was a 'WIKI' or the 'INTER NET' or the 'google'?

One of those is the BIBLE.
Debunk it as much as you or others like, but it somehow ALWAYS comes back to reveal the TRUTH!
It has been said....All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof,
for correction,
for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works (II Timothy 3:15-17).


"No prophesy of the Scripture is of private interpretation" (2 Pet 1:29).
the Gospel message concerning the body: "The body for the Lord, and the Lord for the body" (I Corinthians 6:13)
And for this reason it is said in Scripture... "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt 16:18)]
Did you know that the OLD Testament and the NEW Testament refers to those that you call by name as 'Incorruptables'?as TRUTH!

Saints gradually fill themselves with the Holy Spirit, so that their sacred bodies, according to the word of the holy Apostle, become temples of the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 6:19; 3:17)
Christ dwelling by faith in their hearts (Ephesians 3:17)
Of those today living may have faith, but only outwardly and not inwardly.
Faith is called to be both inward and outward.


Our Bodies are .........temples of the Living God (II Corinthians 6:16)
Our Body was created by God and therefore we as Christians should care for it in all manners.
Our SOUL is part of our bodies...its the Living SPIRIT of God!






With his mantle the Prophet Elias struck the water, separating the waters of the Jordan, and along the dry bed of the river crossed the Jordan with his disciple Elisea (IV Kings 2:8).
The prophet Elisea did the very same thing, himself, with the same mantle, after the taking-up of Elias into heaven (IV Kings 2:14).
All this has its verification and source in the Divine power that rested in the garments of the Savior, which encompassed His most pure and Divine body. Moreover, by His inexpressible love for man, the Divine Lord allows the servants of His Divinity to work miracles not only through their bodies and clothing, but even with the shadow of their bodies, which is evident in an occurrence with the holy apostle Peter: his shadow healed an ill man and expelled unclean spirits (Acts 5:15-16).


"The Saints have become according to grace that which the Lord Christ is according to nature.
That is, they have become gods according to grace: pure and living habitations of God. For God says: 'I will dwell in them, walk in them, and I will be their God' (II Corinthians 6:16; Leviticus 16:12).
The Holy Scriptures likewise say: 'the souls of the righteous are in God's hand, and death cannot lay hold of them' (Wisdom of Solomon 3:1).
Death meaning that the falling away from God in the Old Testament has been done away with.
Death has no meaning to a Christian....Jesus Christ has conquered Death by His Crusifixtion and Resurrection!

When the perishable puts on the imperishable,
and the mortal puts on immortality,
then shall come to pass the saying that is written...........
"Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?"
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God,
who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brethren,
be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord,
knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
(1 Cor. 15:54-58)
AMEN

Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which ye have been taught,
whether by word (oral tradition) or our epistle (II Thessalonians 2:15).
"the world itself could not contain the books that should be written" (John 21:25)
But how can we know that the Church has preserved the Apostolic Tradition in its purity? The short answer is that God has preserved it in the Church because He has promised to do so. Christ said that He would build His Church and that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). Christ Himself is the head of the Church (Ephesians 4:16), and the Church is His Body (Ephesians 1:22-23). If the Church lost the pure Apostolic Tradition, then the Truth would have to cease being the Truth — for the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth (I Timothy 3:15).
It is also said ......."if anyone is preaching to you a Gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:9)


For death is rather the sleep of Saints than their death. Further: 'Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His Saints' (Psalm 119:6)....

For you shall not all die but sleep....We are alive in Christ,although the Body(vessel)has died the SOUL is alive and living.
Also similar passages found in the Apocalypse of Saint John the Theologian.



So, if those that do follow the Old Testament, are they in the WRONG also?
Was the Old Testament full of LIES as well?

ICXN
helen
EDIT to add A little about the Cross~

[edit on 6/19/2009 by helen670]

Originally posted by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest
first of all....

you were a mortician? i may have lots of questions regarding that field of work...

but on to the topic at hand.

ive heard this kind of stuff before and i find it fscinating, but as you said ridiculous. i would expect popes to be "incorruptable" or something. i would be interested in inspecting the non-decomposed bodies. i shall look into this topic in more depth. Thank you.

Hi ELECTRI/

I would like to point out that the Orthodox Church does not ALLOW embalming!
And neither cremation!...Jesus Christ was Buried, so are we.
Ashes we were, Ashes we would return to.
For Scripture says
. "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
we too might walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3)

The Liturgy of Death celebrates the tragedy of the spiritual and physical death of each Christian as being the very sign and victory of Christ's death and resurrection. In that way, the Liturgy of Death preserves the unique Christian vision of death - and life - and calls on the rest of the community to persevere more deeply and zealously in the baptismal way of dying and rising in Christ, so that one's last breath can become a witness to the "glory of the Father." It was, after all, to living people that Saint Paul wrote: "You have died and your life is hid with Christ in God" (Colossians 3:3). "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth" (Revelation 14:13).

icxn
helen

reply to post by KRISKALI777


Religions.. as far fetched as some aspects of all religions may seem.. should still be left up to the individual to decide upon and not mocked or have defamatory attempts directed upon them by non believers.

The same applies for Religious folk towards non religious... If you believe, then don't push it on others.. this is where you become a zealot.

Im not Religious but coming from a country where people only stopped blowing each other up over religious beliefs a mere decade ago, your attempts to ridicule the faith of another person seem fickle and frustrating.

Finally.. Mankind knows everything about everything yes?

What about saying these people actually didn't die, and can regain consciousness any moment again?

reply to post by etherical waterwave


Hi etherical/

Enoch and Elijah haven't died,they will come back when the antichrist is in power or just a little before then.To preach the coming of the Antichrist and point him out...many will believe, many will want them dead....after 3 and half years they shall be killed.
Also there's a story about a 'marble king' that will also come alive at the time of the antichrist...>>>this one has many legends attached to it!

A few more, but I can't remember...

St. John the Theologian died a natural death (the only one of the Apostles to do so), being around 105 years of age, during the time of Emperor Trajan. The circumstances of the Apostles death appeared to be unusual and even puzzling.
Upon the insistence of Apostle John, he was buried alive.
On the following day, when the tomb was unearthed it turned out to be empty.
This event somewhat affirmed the belief in the conjecture of some Christians that Apostle John will not die but will live until the Second coming of Christ and that he will unmask the Antichrist.
The reason for such a surmise was served by the words said by the Saviour not long before his Ascention.
To the question of Apostle Peter as to what will become with Apostle John, the Lord answered, "If I will that he remain until I come (the second time) what is that to you?
You follow Me " Apostle John makes a notation regarding this in his Gospel: " This saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die" (John 21:22-23).

www.fatheralexander.org...

Just something to think about!
take care,

icxn
helen

Mod Edit: External Source Tags – Please Review This Link.




[edit on 19/6/2009 by Mirthful Me]

The whole Catholic Church is built on lies!

reply to post by orangeman dave


What religion isn't?

reply to post by KRISKALI777


Incorruptibles are one of my favorite paranormal subjects. Too bad your comments are so hateful and full of lies towards Catholics, such as myself.

Posts like this suck the fun out of ATS.

I guess Catholics have no idea what this means?

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Looking at a persons flesh as what determines someone as "incorruptible" is a joke in itself. Only a fool would look at a mans flesh in these regards.

reply to post by Dermo



Helo my friend, i suppose a lot have inconsistencies but the Holy see is just full mate.

They claim St Peter went to Rome they did an excavation and didn't let outside eyes see this then all of a sudden he was buried in the Crypt.

Padre Pios attending a church with a congregation growing smaller all of a sudden he had stigmata but would not let any doctors or outsiders have a look.

Do you want me to continue?

I remember you from my last debate about Catholic secret societies and you dissed me saying they don't have any power anymore, did you see the thread regarding Opus Dei and the Knights of Columbanus in coverup of the Ryan Report into Child abuse by the Catholic Church in Ireland

www.abovetopsecret.com...


maybe you will give me credit as to my last post you said the Church had no power anymore!! They seem have in your country and that was comming from a Catholic!

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
These bodies have been found to not only be Embalmed, but as you have mentioned, sheltered from the elements in the artificial environment of their own self-contained glass cases.

:shk:

WRONG

Many of the incorruptables have been 'dug up' from the grave years and years after being buried without embalming. Their clothing rotted away but their bodies in perfect shape.

Some of the incorruptables are now in glass coffins below altars in Europe. But even being in those glass coffins they should have rotted and haven't.

Instead of the usual uneducated anti-Catholic bull being posted, you all seriously need to educate yourselves.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Even if the individual claim is true as far as the bodies, I would still have to say so what.

Again, what is born of the flesh is the flesh and what is born of spirit is the spirit. Flesh not decomposing when buried has nothing do to with the spirit, and it is the spirit which determines if a man is corrupted or not.

If it is not what a man puts into his body that defiles him, but what comes out of it. Then how is the body a sign of anything?

These kinds of "miracles" are just things manipulated into getting people accept things. If god just wanted you to accept such things, then you would have been born accepting them. But it is not about accepting things, it's about having understanding of things. And there is no understanding in a body that has not decomposed even if it is true or false.

Just goes to show the focus of things. You really have to look at what is being implied when you say such things.


[edit on 19-6-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by FlyersFan




Hi flyers/

I believe people are 'anti all' since nothing truthful can be said nowdays and all that seems to make sense is anti-Christian posts!
Let them that want to go believing a lie....

ICXN
helen

[edit on 6/19/2009 by helen670]

reply to post by DarkElvis


I dont waist my time hating anything/or anybody friend.
There is a big difference between hate, and utter disappointment.
Those fraternities of the world that hold power and are therefore more responsible to those that don't have the personal power of logical deduction. telling lies to the masses, and holding them to bondage under duress!!!! Shame Shame ( Sham).