Time for revolution? A question

A violent revolution that worked? The American Revolution..

Do we live in a true Democracy? Of course not. We live in a Constitutional Republic. There are certain things that the citizens of this country cannot vote on.. deal with it.

I agree eightonefive.. Democracy is no more (I would say) than mob rule. Our Constitution affords each and every one of us to a 'Republican' form of government, and no that isn't the Republican Party. If we truly believe in our Constitution (a 'thing' that I feel everyone tends to throw around a little carelessly) then we believe in that part as well. When leaders swear oath, when I swore that oath to defend the Constitution.. I knew what I was saying, so many of our leaders don't.

If you truly believe in America, then you believe that we have rights that would be ours with or without, what George Bush referred to, as a 'goddamn piece of paper'..

If you want true Democracy, count me out.. that is not what this country was meant to be, and it's not what I swore an oath to protect and defend.

reply to post by THELONIO


I'm going to respond as succinctly as I can then retreat away from this thread as I should never have posted anyway...

If you have a better way, change minds, if you have a magic bullet that will change two hundred plus years of capitalist society into a utopia of sharing and free energy, free water, heath care etc, where people don’t want the power for themselves, then I'll buy it too.

I won’t fire a shot for in anger to get it. Most Americans have no idea what a paradise they already live in…

I will not raise a hand against a countryman who in faith trusted me to keep the wolves at bay.

The wolves are not our politicians. We placed those wolves there.

In today’s instant gratification society there are many who think that they can solve problems with a gun.

If you are someone who has taken an oath, lived by it and watched those fall around you to return home to fat countrymen living as overfed, overpaid ignorant cry babies while the majority of the world is surrounded by poverty drought and war and disease, well you look upon the vote as a sacred privilege, not a right... and something to exercise.

Americans of the 21st century have no idea what revolution means. They think rebellion is a history channel special where they imagine their own name attached to glory.

Armed rebellion and revolution are the disgusting past time of rival gangsters.

We do not live in fledgling colonies across the ocean being wrung dry by the crown. Make all the comparisons you want, but WE chose this, WE voted for it.

Stop focusing on the right to bear arms and Thomas Jefferson's quote of the "Blood of Tyrants and Patriots". Become the Senator, become the congressman, the Mayor etc.

Don’t become the criminal.

(Nope, I wont be back to reply. If you feel that is a cheat, u2u me. I shouldn’t have written this much anyway)

You don't want a bloody revolution, or civil war.

A lot of people are angry, if you want to change something then stand up for your rights, but you can't be afraid of the consequences. And no don't go killing people. Killing is wrong and should only be an option when your life is in danger and then you should use your head to get out of the situation.

What I mean by standing up for your rights, is if your local government is about to pass some ordinance that you feel is wrong, then show up to the town meetings and explain your position, argue your side of the argument. You'll win some and lose some.

America only fought the British Army because it was a last resort, they already had an alternate government set up ready to go and those people were on their side. They protested against the Crown and the Crown just squeezed harder. Then it was one incident that went wrong and a war started.

Violence should always always always be an option of last resort. And it shouldn't ever be used to change minds. Violence breeds violence and it is a very viscous cycle if you want to break the cycle then you have to use your head.

I'll repeat again, Violence is never the answer.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


What does that quote from Thomas Jefferson say under your avatar? I can't read it due to my terrible screen resolution...

reply to post by eightonefive


Thanks for the clarification, and I mean that. I agree with you that nothing has come close to making armed rebellion germane.

Don’t fear my bubble. I wouldn’t be on this site if I thought all was hunky dory. I will say though it took us a long time to get here. It will take a long time to get to where we should be.

I would actually love to discuss real solutions to real problems but I get blinded when people talk about killing for "freedom" that they are already drowning in.

(By the way, I read you're whole posts... you have a head on your shoulders sir.)

I'll see you around. And thanks for serving.

reply to post by eightonefive

"Every citizen should be a soldier. The was the case with the Greeks and the Romans and must be that of every free State.

Originally posted by Common Good
So instead of trying to find out what we could do to fix it, you just want to cheat and start killing people instead because its a lot easier than actually trying to change things from the inside out. All it takes is a leader, a real leader to help lead the road to success instead of failure. As long as someone has the way, people will follow. You dont always have to kill people to meet your goals. Just my two cents.

Fo sho!

reply to post by blind.face


Jesus... I've fallen into this thread like black hole.

Well said sir. Well covered. Bread and circuses is what true democracy is. Thank you for reminding me of The Republic.

reply to post by eightonefive


It says:

"Every citizen should be a Solider. This was the case with the Greeks and the Romans and must be that of every free state."

The actual meaning of the quote is a lot more complex than that though. It's an entire philosophy summed up in a very simplistic two sentences.

[edit on 12-6-2009 by Hastobemoretolife]

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


I'm sure no one is clamoring here for me to agree with them, but lets not forget the republic of Sparta.

Jefferson had a great deal to say that is worth thinking long and hard on. And a great deal that is often misunderstood (though I don’t feel that is the case with you.)

reply to post by whiskeypoet


That he did. He was only 26(or 27) when he wrote the Declaration of Independence, and a lawyer none the less. Although a lawyer that was a very rare breed.

I see people often throw around his quotes without knowing what he was really trying to say.

Yes Sparta. Courage and Conviction. There are a lot of people that are lacking those two traits this day and age.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


I never realized he was that young. Thanks for the lesson and reminder to renew my education and not rest on my laurels.

And that seems the right note for me to bow out. See you around mate.

"Go tell the Spartans,
Passerby,
That here, obedient to their laws,
We lie. "

-Simonides

Originally posted by THELONIO
reply to post by whaaa

 

after the revolution in the usa it became quite a model of a good nation, it is only now that has gotten the rot

They may have been "quite the model of a good nation" from their pov, but, and I am only pointing out what history presents, I have no hard feeling for the Americans, whilst every other nation suffered from the last great war, America experienced far less than the rest with regard to suffering, The War actually resulted in a boom in industry, Hollywood, the works, whilst pretty much every other country across our earth were fighting to feed themselves still for many years to come, they suffered even with the base necessities, very little housing, food you name it, their countries were either destroyed, or there was so much effort put into the war that resources were in short supply in most countries, why was there no help offered to those countries that were in this position. The US only came in the war toward the end of it, there was nothing there to be proud of, I am sorry. It wasnt the people, it was the government turning a blind eye yet again.

i am english, i am not someone who wants to kill people, but look at the amount of human lives that the existing governments are destroying, how many have died in all of the conflicts around the globe, look at iraq, probably in excess of 500,000 people have died there!, how many people would die in a revolution? it is not killing for freedom or utopia, it is fighting for control of the futures of our children and the salvation of humanity, the problem is this, none of you have really come up with an answer other than voting in biased elections where the media control most of peoples opinions, if a man has a gun to your head, a vote wont work!,

reply to post by THELONIO


My sentiments exactly.

and in respose to the jeffersonian quotes, let me say this, before I leave this thread. Thomas Jefferson believed that in times of peace, we should disband our standing army, as it would be expensive to keep up, and it would be a shadow on our people, imposed by government. He said thus:

"It is probable... that not knowing how to use the military as a civil weapon, [the civil authority] will do too much or too little with it." --Thomas Jefferson to William Carmichael, 1789.

"None but an armed nation can dispense with a standing army. To keep ours armed and disciplined is therefore at all times important, but especially so at a moment when rights the most essential to our welfare have been violated." --Thomas Jefferson to -----, 1803. ME 10:365

"The spirit of resistance to government
is so valuable on certain occasions,
that I wish it to be always kept alive.
It will often be exercised when wrong
but better so than not to be exercised at all.
I like a little rebellion now and then.
It is like a storm in the atmosphere."

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."


and let us not forget the words of Alexander Hamilton:

"[I]f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights and those of their fellow citizens." -- The Federalist, No. 29 - Alexander Hamilton

Our founding fathers had the Foresight to know that left of it's own devices, our government would become tyrannical, and it was the peoples duty to keep it in check. Of course, the proper way of doing so at first is to fire at them using words, then paperwork, the if all else fails, lead.

Originally posted by THELONIO, how many people would die in a revolution?

Who do we start killing first? Politicians? People we disagree with?

People with skin darker than our own?

Rich people that dress nice?

Lawyers?

Intellectuals?


How do we control the "revolutionaries" that may have their own agenda
and see "black people" as the enemy of freedom? Or Jews?

Who will make the distinction between the freedom fighters and the controllers? You? I think a revolution would be a mistake. Am I now an enemy to be killed because I stand in the way of your grand design;

Your freedom....does my freedom mean anything to you?



What is the distinction between those that want to take our freedom and
the people that are calling for revolution.

Perhaps these questions should be addressed before we lock and load.



[edit on 12-6-2009 by whaaa]

reply to post by whaaa


how did you manage to get racism and religious predjudice in there, the aim of a revolution is to get rid of the existing system of government and those who govern and to replace it with a system which has been prepared before hand, if people stand against you, then they are against you, but we always must give them a chance to stand down or join, but you cannot lose sight of your goals.

it took me a long time of pondering over this, probably about 3 years, i am a pacifist and a vegetarian, i hate violence, but there is realy no other way to do it, and sadly and regretably some people would have to die. look at the current events that have taken place in iraq, was that not a revolution by proxy?, or did the iraqi lives not count?