How Many Races Are There?

reply to post by masqua



Well put. It seems we will just have a minor disagreement within an overall agreement. Not a problem for me at all.

BTW, i like the way George Lopez put it when he talked about folks who didn't like the Mexican people:

"You like our food, you like our music....you like our WOMEN". Indeed, i do. I am blessed enough to live in the heart of Tejano country. Michael Salgado is from this area, as well as Selena (she hailed from the same Odessa that the Permian Panthers, of "Friday Night Lights" fame). If any person wants to look down their nose at the ways of the culture, i encourage them to grab a Tecate and come watch some of the local bands from around here.

Edit to add: in this region, and all throughout Texas, the German influence is definitely pervasive. There are countless towns that look like they are straight out of Bavaria. The blending of the Amerind and German cultures makes Texas a unique experience. If you get closer to the east, towards Louisianna, there is more of a french/Amerind influence. Vastly different than what we have here in Texas....but VERY fun, too.



[edit on 17-4-2010 by bigfatfurrytexan]

reply to post by masqua
In my opinion, 'race' as a value judgement is a sorry hangover from the battle between the anti-slavery Abolitionists and the vested interests of the slavers. To my mind, that debate lent credence to the aspects of racial prejudice we have today.

I'm not stupid enough to ignore Man's tendency to denigrate different cultures or people in general...that's human nature in action. Our nature seems hardwired towards elevating one society above others. It's disappointing yet we're all guilty of it in some way or other.

In a sense, overt prejudice was more honest before the 'superior race' idea was solidified in the 18th and 19th centuries.

The Royal Courts of Europe entertained people of different colours until at least the middle ages. It's historical record. Shakespeare wrote of Othello. Mark Anthony left Rome for Cleopatra. Constantinople was a thriving hub of different colours and cultures. Black communities lived in Middle-Age London. White communities lived in the Middle-East and along the North West countries of Africa. The Chinese had populations across Europe. Trade routes span Northern Europe, Russia, China, Africa and the Middle East for thousands of years. Colour wasn't the issue...

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
Is it not common we people feel better then others because we think our lifestyle is the most correct and or civilised one around ?

Yes.

This way any other is regarded as lower so we look down on it.
Ironic is it that those we usually look down on are the ones which are the closest to a natural balance around.

If the lifestyle of a hunter/gatherer on the Kalahari is the universal standard of "closest to natural balance around", I'd have to say for sure that it is. After all, they've survived in that way since the dawn of civilization. What's different here is the variety of civilizations themselves. A group of San working together for survival is as much a social system of civilization as one based on 767's, plasma TV's and Sherman tanks... just 'different'.

There is a tendency to dismiss 'old ways', even if they are good for you. I would use the Amish as an example for that.

Anyway.
What you call racism has always been around but do to the problems they cause or where the difference fades away or becomes mainstream the whole concept is given another name. People feel like they are better then before and nationalism etc. Does are a thing of the past.

No. Racism has not always been around. It only goes back to the colonial days of Western Europe.

People will feel superior to others no matter what. They'll find a reason. look at the recent stupidity of railing against red haired people. If one wanted to, they could find a million excuses to harass someone.

Look at that guy in the Chevy. Let's string 'em up cuz Ford rules.

The reason why racism is used is IMO the colonial era. where our different appearances and cultural differences became mainstream.

Yup... and the residual idea remains as Gospel even though Rosa Parks no longer has to move to the back of the bus.

The ones in power used it in their best interests to conquer and divide.

Exactly as Catholic vs Protestant, Muslim vs Jew and a million other BS excuses to feel more important.

Racial division is based on false science. There just isn't any such thing. A dog is a dog and a human is a human, no matter what 'breeding' they get. That's all I'm saying. Is a Peruvian different from a Dutchman.? Of course they are, but they both still are an example of a human being and certainly not seperate races.

reply to post by masqua


I've read somewhere that the DNA from two of the most distant human individuals share more in common the the DNA from two separate gorilla's from the same species.

I'm sorry I can't back it up. But it says more then enough in my opinion.

There is only one race yet it is the greatist race of them all "Humanity" I believe that when racism comes about it's due to the lack of culture and sheltered beliefs in society. My first time in Brooklyn NYC I asked why is everything segragated? They have different sections for different ethnical cultures such as:polish district, little italy, the projects where it's mostly sec 8, ect. Segragation and the way we are raised creates a lack of understanding among our race, the only race HUMANITY

Horse and a Donkey, different "race." Horse and a Zebra, different "race." Arabian Horse and Appaloosa, same "race," different" "ethnicity."

What one has to look at is subspecies. There are no human subspecies the way there are with equines. If you talk about different human races you imply sub species or perhaps by intent, lesser beings, which is nonsense. Hair and skin color and facial features do not make that much of a difference in the grand scale of things. We can ALL trace our ancestors back to Africa.

There is a BIG difference between race and ethnicity.

I am a bit alarmed to see that so many people cannot distinguish between race and species.
There isn't a "human race". Being human is a species (i.e. homo sapiens).
When we say that we are "all the same", that we all have two eyes, two arms, one nose, that we can reproduce with other humans, that doesn't mean that we are the same race. That means we are the same species.

The Webster's New World College Dictionary defines a species as:

a naturally existing population of similar organisms that usually interbreed only among themselves, and are given a unique, latinized binomial name to distinguish them from all other creatures

(emphasis mine)

A race is defined as:

a subspecies, or variety

Hence, there are several races. In fact, there can be as many races as one wants to go into details.
There are several races (or breeds) in dogs. So are there amongst cats, or cows, or chickens. Why deny so hard that there are several human races?

The problem isn't that there are races, in my opinion. The problem is the value that society gives to race. Races have been used as a tool for war, domination, trade, etc... That's the only reason why we are ashamed of pronouncing the R-word. Instead of just pretending they don't exist and hope they're going to go away on their own, we should accept the existence of races and try and look at them with a detached, objective, purely biological outlook.

Originally posted by BreizhooThe problem isn't that there are races, in my opinion. The problem is the value that society gives to race. Races have been used as a tool for war, domination, trade, etc... That's the only reason why we are ashamed of pronouncing the R-word.

Thank you for that reasonable reply, even if the analogy to cats and dogs has been mentioned before. To that I would propose that they are breeds, not 'races'. Humans can also be 'bred' intentionally and it's the great plan behind eugenics. The problem with that is the severe curtailing of the most basic of freedoms... the notion that we may couple with whomever we please. Governments have gone hand in hand with scientists and tried to go that route, failing miserably because people will not put up with such draconian measures.

On Homo Sapiens Sapiens being a species and not being a race, I have to ask if you consider Neanderthals and Homo Erectus seperate species from modern man. I've always considered them to be distinctly different... more so than ethnic differences produced through various diet, elevation and geographical location. So... are they the 'subspecies', now thought to be extinct?

Instead of just pretending they don't exist and hope they're going to go away on their own, we should accept the existence of races and try and look at them with a detached, objective, purely biological outlook.

Not to beleager the point, but the part I bolded sounds ominously like Eugenics again.

You may be right, though... in that there is no such thing as 'the human race'. It is something to consider in relation to the evolution of 'mankind'. On the notion of accepting multiple races, though, I feel it only entrenches the racial division. That it will ever go away is questionable, since almost everyone has bought into it over the past several hundred years since its invention. Prior to that, races did not exist in the minds of men and women. Tribes did and we all know how much many hated the stranger who came by.

Racial distinction is the current replacement of the old tribalism which produced the dislike and fear of that 'outsider'.

Very interesting point, Masqua.
Remember that I said that we were Homo Sapiens?
As you pointed out, we are Homo Sapiens Sapiens. The Neanderthal men that you mentioned are sometimes classified as Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis (which would make them a sub-species of Homo Sapiens, and thus the same species as us), and sometimes as just Homo Neanderthalensis (which would make them a different species).
The reason why we can't tell for sure, is because we don't know if Sapiens Sapiens could interbreed with Neanderthalensis. Personally, I like the idea that we are the same species, so I always refer to them as Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis.

Homo Erectus, however, is consensually seen as a different species.

When it comes to race and breed, I consider those two words to be synonymous. But then again, defining words is exactly what we're trying to do here, huh?
Well, I've said what I think of race/breed. I see it as a purely biological/anatomical phenomenon that should not have any influence on people's status in society.

On a side note, Wikipedia (for what it's worth) treats subspecies and race as synonyms. If we assume that Neanderthals were Sapiens, that would make only two human races: Sapiens, and the extinct Neanderthalensis.

edit for typo

[edit on 30-6-2010 by Breizhoo]

enlightening post, cool

define race and define it for more than just humans.

Is it genetic?

so is it...

Hominids:Cro mag-non,Neanderthal,lucy,homo erectus,homo sapien,etc

"Races": african,european,arab,asian,indian,islander,american,etc



how do we apply the same thing that to say a dog or a horse?

black Labrador, yellow Labrador, chocolate Labrador?

define race and define it for more than just humans.

Indy 500 [cars], the Kentucky Derby [horses] etc.

Is it genetic?

Genetics relates to evolution... this is how a Nepalese native has evolved larger lung capacity to capture oxygen at higher elevations than a Dutchman whose distant ancestors lived at sea level.

so is it...

Hominids:Cro mag-non,Neanderthal,lucy,homo erectus,homo sapien,etc

"Races": african,european,arab,asian,indian,islander,american,etc

See answer above... it's evolution generating physical characteristics.

how do we apply the same thing that to say a dog or a horse?

black Labrador, yellow Labrador, chocolate Labrador?

Breeding. All dogs come from the wolf genus. They are adapted for specific domestic uses through breeding. Wild dogs and horses adapt to their environment over millenia.

reply to post by masqua


Race exists, to deny that simple fact is to embrace ignorance. Human beings are nothing more then advanced animals. And like animals, for examples dogs, race exists. You have poodles, great Danes, cocker spaniels etc.

We may be the same species, but there are different races within said species.

And instead of trying to hide that simple fact, we should embrace our differences as that's what makes us all unique.

Originally posted by Frontkjemper
We may be the same species, but there are different races within said species.

We may be the same species, but there are different genetic mutations within said species.

You say tomahto
I say tomayto

Originally posted by masqua
We may be the same species, but there are different genetic mutations within said species.

Doesn't matter what you call it, we're all different and instead of trying to force us all to be the same, we should be happy with what and who we are.

Who, exactly, is forcing any of us to be all the same? Can there be no celebration of various ethnicity without racial division? Why does it need to be a social ideology that seperates and pidgeonholes us?

Originally posted by masqua
Who, exactly, is forcing any of us to be all the same?

From the top of my head, those people who believe we should all be a mixed people as that would magically eliminate racism.

Originally posted by masqua
Who, exactly, is forcing any of us to be all the same? Can there be no celebration of various ethnicity without racial division? Why does it need to be a social ideology that seperates and pidgeonholes us?

well since most of the genetic differentiation happened 20,000-100,000 years ago a better question would be what enviromental pressures(climate,what caused death,food,illness,etc) has changed in us.

We died of starvation,sepsis and illnesses most of the time. We still do. The only reason why we survived is because we worked in teams,make tools, and record data/information.

Other than that what makes us any better than a bear,lion or a wolf without our tools and teamwork.

There are only three races...You have mongloid, angloid and negroid...Everything else is a derivative of those.

Originally posted by Frontkjemper
From the top of my head, those people who believe we should all be a mixed people as that would magically eliminate racism.

And who is promoting that? I'd like to eliminate the ideology, not ethnic differences.