Irish, Czechs mull anti-treaty voices in EU vote

Irish, Czechs mull anti-treaty voices in EU vote

news.yahoo.com

Voters in Ireland and the Czech Republic faced a choice between pro-European establishment politicians and an upstart movement hostile to the EU bureaucracy as they filled seats for the European Parliament Friday.

An Irish-born movement called Libertas is fielding more than 600 candidates in 14 of the bloc's 27 countries. It hopes for breakthroughs in the Czech Republic and Ireland, two countries with pivotal roles to play in enacting, or sabotaging, the European Union's Lisbon Treaty blueprint for reform.

Czech President Vaclav Klaus is refusing to sign the mammoth document despite th

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The EU is given a pass by American media. It is largely portrayed ans a politically and economically stable union of European countries.

A closer examination shoes something different. Chronic economics problems and much dissent among countries. As the Union moves towards a centralization of a communal government and fiscal policies, a few countries have strong reservations.

The EU is an artificial creation that may have seemed like a great idea at one time. A shared currency, the ability to live and work in other member countries, more collective buying power, etc.

Unforseen concerns were that the wealthier countries are forced to subsidize the weaker ones. National identities and quality of life is seen as eroding by many.

Some think the common currency the Euro may one day replace the American dollar as the world reserve currency. Others believe it cannot sustain itself and that the EU is starting to fracture badly.


Mike



news.yahoo.com
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Originally posted by mmiichael
Others believe it cannot sustain itself and that the EU is starting to fracture badly.

Not really, outside views are always over analytical about what is simply periodic disfunction in a family. Simple as.

Yes, some EU states have economic problems, some want the new Lisbon treaty (constitution) changed, others want new widespread policies and the likes of the UK want out of the EU while still not wanting to leave.

Its basically the growing pains while a third of the worlds GDP output and 600 million people of a couple of dozen different languages and cultures squeeze together into collective superstate with a federal government and constitution.

I wouldn't worry about it.. this wont happen overnight.

The next five years with Europe will be some of the most important of this century as a new massive superpower is born which will dwarf all other economies... just as long as they don't go ahead with building the army that they are talking about.. that is also one of the main reasons Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty.. I wouldn't trust the EU with a few million hi tech soldiers and all the frills.. would you?

My main issue with it is that at the moment it is false democracy.. once it sorts that out, I will be an avid voter.

you still want EU mebership while your economy is going down the drain rapid, look at the price of things up in the north compared to down south, and were not in the euro(yet).
all the freestate shopers are flocking to the north(UK) to get their supplies
and reportable its a third cheaper!!

Originally posted by foxhoundone
you still want EU mebership while your economy is going down the drain rapid

Thats nothing got to do with being in the EU or using the EURO.. the problems in Ireland are a direct result of a prolonged property boom and prolonged double figure economic expansion which added to massive debt, runaway inflation and overpaid workers. Global recession or not, we were going to be in a recession now anyway.. the Global recession just made it worse.

Also, when I last checked - yesterday, the UK were also in pretty dire circumstances economically.. Not too far behind us. Also, if you are in the UK, please remember that much of the UK media and politicians are exaggerating the circumstances in Ireland in order to push their own anti EU/EURO agenda... Things aren't actually that bad over here for the vast majority.

Finally, its the Republic .. not the free state lol

**Edit to add**

Originally posted by foxhoundone
all the freestate shopers are flocking to the north(UK) to get their supplies
and reportable its a third cheaper!!

Im a five hour drive from the North..
Irish people living near the border areas.. no more than MAX 45 min drive are heading across the border to shop.. Also, while that may be good for the people of the border areas in the North.. Its bad overall for the UK as the Sterling is hemorrhaging because of the bailouts it had to give to stop it going as bad as Ireland.

Im just pointing these things out because it seems you missed them.


[edit on 5/6/09 by Dermo]

i enjoy your economic opions, im a late developer when it comes to economic politics, i suppose the point i was trying to get across was its so expensive down south, the price of a pint for example, alot of my freinds have caravans and mobile homes in donegal and they cant sell them quick enough because of skyhigh cost of living. and theve got a few quid. im obviously from belfast and at my local the amount of guys from the south moving here for work is unbelievible. more than welcome the craic is ninty lol.
and i must ask what is the diferance, freestate / republic,(again i show my ignorance) lol

Originally posted by foxhoundone
i enjoy your economic opions, im a late developer when it comes to economic politics,

Cheers man, there's a lot of rubbish about the economies in the media, its hard to actually find out whats really happening.

i suppose the point i was trying to get across was its so expensive down south, the price of a pint for example, alot of my freinds have caravans and mobile homes in donegal and they cant sell them quick enough because of skyhigh cost of living.

Yea, thats the problem at the mo, if you still have your job in Ireland, your doing really well coz prices are dropping everywhere but no matter how far they fall, if sterling keeps falling, it will always be expensive against sterling.

i must ask what is the diferance, freestate / republic,(again i show my ignorance) lol

The freestate was when what is now the republic was still a part of the British empire after Ireland declared its independence.. It became a sovereign republic a number of years after that.. hence Republic of Ireland.
As a freestate, it had its own constitution and puppet government under the monarchy of the Empire but was still owned by the Empire and not the people.
When it became a republic, it became a full democracy governed by the laws of the constitition and owned by the people

thanks dermo, im not against an united ireland im just woried about my state pension and national insurance contributions, they might like go missing ???, a big worry for many people up here , hence trying to get my head around ecnomics, again thanks bud

Originally posted by foxhoundone
thanks dermo, im not against an united ireland im just woried about my state pension and national insurance contributions, they might like go missing ???, a big worry for many people up here , hence trying to get my head around ecnomics, again thanks bud

No worries
I wouldn't worry about that, a united Ireland will never happen. We'll all lose our sovereignty to the EU first

I hope these movements gain momentum and work to reduce the EU back to what it was originally believed to be by the people: a common market. The last thing we need is a federal Europe, the ridiculous bureaucracy out of Brussels simply isn't working, and more and more Europeans are realizing this.

Power to the people, not the elites!

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf


The thing is, its the evolution of Europe.

As much as you might not agree with it, as soon as the Irish vote yes for the Lisbon revote, and we will because we are being pretty much forced, the EU will be a federal government backed by a constitution and with an overruling power over the constitutions of all member states... and it will only get more powerful over the next couple of decades until our governments are nothing but state minders.

Are you from the UK? If so, your government has already ratified this whether you like it or not and if they wanted your say, they would have given you a referendum.. i don't agree with the fact that they didn't.. It shows a massive level of elitism in the EU. Our government didn't want us to get our say but it is in our constitution that we must.. we voted no and now they are handing us the same document again and a lot of threats.

Its going to happen whether we like it or not and in fifty years time, noone will remember what member state sovereignty felt like.

[edit on 5/6/09 by Dermo]

just to mention, this time last year prices were pretty close in the UK and Ireland, the reason that there is a difference now is because sterling is worth less, not because ireland's any more expensive.

a pint still costs E4 odd in ireland and it still costs £2.50 odd in the UK, (a pint's a good measure, the price is fairly stable from place to place and across time) it's just the difference in euro against stg that causes a change to the value. this actually means that the UK economy is getting worse measured against the european economy.

the ridiculous bureaucracy out of Brussels simply isn't working,

you think the ridiculous governments we have are working? no chance. brussells is no worse than existing governments, and that's a sad day.

anyways, on topic, that libertas crowd can go jump as far as i'm concerned, they're just a CIA front. the US doesn't want to have a rival super power in europe, as far as i can see the colonial elite are worried about the old elites reinstating their power. i honestly think that there will be a power struggle in the west between europe and the US and this is just the first tentative skirmishes.

we might even end up with a situation resembling the early 40's, struggles involving america, europe and russia in the west and china and japan in the east.

reply to post by Dermo


dunno about the treaty passing any time soon, they didn't tie it to the voting today, so it won't happen before the next general election. then it won't happen soon afterward because FG will probably get in and they'll faff about for at least two years before they think about presenting it. even at that, there's no way they'll get it through because they couldn't organise the opening of a shopping centre, never mind a referendum campaign.

and above all, i have doubts it'll get through at all while we're in this recession, and that looks like it's settling in more permanently than a group of smack heads in an empty apartment block.

[edit on 5/6/09 by pieman]

Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by Dermo

 

dunno about the treaty passing any time soon, they didn't tie it to the voting today,

You know, I was wondering about this because the EU are breathing down this country's throat about sorting a new referendum.

What I would do if I was in Government would be to set the vote date, have all the propaganda ready, strengthen the 'pro EU information' that we are getting now, then spring the date on the people less than three months before the referendum. Giving the opposition very little chance to get their affairs in order and pretty much guaranteeing a YES vote through fear.

Its a very big possibility at this stage and probably what they will do. Remember last year they had said the date was set for August/Sept this year but nothing else has been mentioned about it.

Originally posted by Dermo
reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

 

The thing is, its the evolution of Europe.

As much as you might not agree with it, as soon as the Irish vote yes for the Lisbon revote, and we will because we are being pretty much forced, the EU will be a federal government backed by a constitution and with an overruling power over the constitutions of all member states... and it will only get more powerful over the next couple of decades until our governments are nothing but state minders.

Are you from the UK? If so, your government has already ratified this whether you like it or not and if they wanted your say, they would have given you a referendum.. i don't agree with the fact that they didn't.. It shows a massive level of elitism in the EU. Our government didn't want us to get our say but it is in our constitution that we must.. we voted no and now they are handing us the same document again and a lot of threats.

Its going to happen whether we like it or not and in fifty years time, noone will remember what member state sovereignty felt like.

[edit on 5/6/09 by Dermo]

Evolution? The EU was Hitler's wet dream.

I lived in the UK for two years, am currently living in Spain. However, I am from the US.

I despise federalism, period. I have seen the dangers. In the states, the Federal government has been gaining too much power over individual states and overriding/bullying the states and the wishes of the citizens.

Example: California passed two controversial laws back in 96: One to legalize medicinal Marijuana and one to end affirmitive action. The people themselves voted yes on these measures, but the feds did not like it, so they overturn both pieces of legislation, and go in and start busting people for doing something the state declared legal in the first place.

A distant, out of touch body completely removed from the people of California came in and decided to enforce their own will against that of the people. THAT is what Federalism ultimately means: loss of power, a big unaccountable entity squashing any form of choice that conflicts with its own view. That is what is in store for Europe, and I think people are starting to wake up to this fact.

As to Europe ever being a "superpower", no offense, but that is a pipe dream born of a longing for the good old days. Europe is a dying continent, aging, becoming stagnant. The future is not in Europe, or even the US, the future rivals and major global powers will be from Asia, where the population is young and dynamic, economies are blooming, and development/advancement is growing fast.

Asia is the future, because that is where they are looking.

My distatse for the EU is born of a dislike for federalism/centralism and forced homogeny.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Evolution? The EU was Hitler's wet dream.

While I understand what you are saying and respect it, your views are a bit extreme for what is actually happening with the EU.

With the US, without the federal government, the US would have no real power on the world stage.. that is what the EU is now trying to achieve.. more clout. Agree or not, that is the objective and they are achieving it.

As to Europe ever being a "superpower", no offense, but that is a pipe dream born of a longing for the good old days. Europe is a dying continent, aging, becoming stagnant.

The future is everywhere on this planet.. Business opportunities are now taking people to Asia, then Africa, then back to the EU/US.. then off planet. As for stagnating, i don't take offense, Yes the old powers are aging but this will eventually come full circle while the eastern states become more and more populous and powerful with consumer economies etc.

While immigration is a massive concern for the EU, I will be long dead by the time it is a Muslim country, it will then be young and vibrant again except with a massive muslim population.. Again, these things always come full circle. To view it any other way is short sighted im my opinion, no offense.

I understand your perspective in a big way as I had that antagonistic perspective a couple of years ago where I could only see bad in the EU and no good. The good is economic clout and security.. the world is changing into a handful of super super powers and a lot of weak nationalist or poor nations.

In my opinion, its the future, if you don't agree, then there's nothing else I can really say.

**Edit to add**

However, I am from the US.

You know, if I had made these statements about the US and said I was from Europe, I would have been told to "shut the f*ck up because its none of my business and go back to Europe you US hater".. Im not insinuating that that should be said to you.. im just pointing that out

[edit on 5/6/09 by Dermo]

hi guys. SKADI& DERMO,PIEMAN, thanks for an sightful thread. truly im amazed somtimes the amount of knowaldge and opinions yous guys have,
seriouly insightful stuff, keep up the good debate... thankyou

[edit on 5-6-2009 by foxhoundone]

If and when the UK gets a referendum, it will be a resounding NO- I would remove ourselves from the EU without a second thought

Originally posted by blueorder
If and when the UK gets a referendum, it will be a resounding NO- I would remove ourselves from the EU without a second thought

See thats the main reason you won't be allowed to vote unfortunately, your government already ratified... once Ireland passes it, then its done.

From an economic perspective.. what would you do it the EU decided to close the market to you as a punishment for pulling out..?

Because that would leave you with nowhere to trade with, a closed isolationist economy with very little industry left, absolutely massive fiscal debt and a currency that is weakening by the day because of quantitive easing and debt.

I think as much as most of you would like to leave the EU, if you look at it from a realistic perspective, you are too dependent on it for your wealth at this stage.. that was the original reason for the Coal and Steel treaty and EU in order to stop member states from attacking each other and convince member states to allow the EU more power.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Europe is a dying continent, aging, becoming stagnant. The future is not in Europe, or even the US, the future rivals and major global powers will be from Asia, where the population is young and dynamic, economies are blooming, and development/advancement is growing fast.

that's just spin.

when you say a developing countries economy is "booming", you mean it has sustained economic growth. that's just relative growth. it's not that important when judging future trends. if a country has a gdp of $12 this year and $24 next year, they have a booming economy with a 100% growth rate, but they're still pretty poor. they're just playing catch-up.

countries like germany or france have "stagnant" economies because they made loads of money last year and they'll make loads of money this year. if your economy is maxed out every year, it's said to be stagnant.

they're developing fast, but putting a road into some medieval part of china develops it a lot, put a road into a rural part of germany and you don't really develop it at all. on an individual level, the average european getting a mobile phone makes them a little more technologically advanced while an indian farmer getting on means hes way more advanced.

a young population usually means a population that is growing unsustainably.

in truth, europe has a stable population, a stable economy and is as developed as it is possible to get, if you average it out across the eurozone. the future is countries in the developing world becoming more like europe.

[edit on 5/6/09 by pieman]