Are the pics of Iraqi prisoner torture super imposed???

First, I want to say thank you to all of your insights on this matter.
To me this seems just so damn schetchy.
I mean, I do understand what goes on during interogations. You can do anything you want to a prisoner just as long as no one takes a picture or films it.
That's the only and best way to get pertinent information out of an enemy soldier.

Why would anyone, of both the British and U.S. military,
allow these pictures to be taken???

I know that people are answering these questions with," Well why would a government admit to this and why would a country want to slander itself?

My questions:
Why/how would the press get these pictures without a big hub bub?
Was Golmer Pyle working at that detention center???

Why is it that the only pic that they keep showing on t.v or newspaper is the one of someone dressed in a witches costume and not the ones with U.S. soldiers in them?
Maybe because people would question them.

Because I think that the U.S soldiers were super imposed into these pics I take them out of these pictures and ask:

Why do they have MASKS on??? You can't see who they are!!!! They could be pictures of American prisoners. Or British prisoners.

Maybe not. Maybe it's real but there's a story to these pics that only these prisoners and the camera man know about.

Just like the story behind picture on the cover of TIME magazine, the picture taken in the backyard of Lee Harvey Oswald, he's holding the exact rifle that supposedly killed J.F.K.

The lighting in that picture and proportions of his head to the body that was holding the gun is so off.

But he must of done it. The press printed it.

But who controls the press??? Really?

I hate Oliver Stone. But he made me flip the coin over on that one.

You know, I'm having some serious reservations on these supposed photos.....my gut is telling me something isn't right.
Take for example these photos from this article:
SHAME OF ABUSE BY BRIT TROOPS

I will not post them, you will have to click the link to see, but something is definitely odd about them.
Look at the last three photos....
I do not know what the time lapse between photos is or are but the first of the three has the prisoner wearing a 'new' sack cloth, just newly rolled on, over his head....the next shows it being not so 'new', in the third, its hard to make out.

I guess what I am getting at is can't these photos have been made or taken basically anywhere? Isn't it easy to buy a uniform from a Army/Navy surplus store and the other necessary implimentations to facilitate the taking and making of these photos? I see no way of identifying the exact location of the taking of these photos.
Again, just thinking on this, and not saying that they are not real, but just wondering at the genuine nature of these photos. Anyone have any source info that is directly confirming the photos as being authentic and not fabricated?

Thanks.


seekerof

[Edited on 1-5-2004 by Seekerof]

am i alone in thinking this is getting more attention then it's worth .
i'm not a military man but to me it seems strange to me that anyone would shake your hand over a cup of tea when 5 minutes ago you were trying to kill each other .
i'm not justifying the mistreatment here but in the context of what these men would have done to thier prisoners [didn't the doctors report that pvt lynch was sodomised whilst she was unconscious] it seems more like juvenile degradation then torture.

Originally posted by dahei
am i alone in thinking this is getting more attention then it's worth .
i'm not a military man but to me it seems strange to me that anyone would shake your hand over a cup of tea when 5 minutes ago you were trying to kill each other .
i'm not justifying the mistreatment here but in the context of what these men would have done to thier prisoners [didn't the doctors report that pvt lynch was sodomised whilst she was unconscious] it seems more like juvenile degradation then torture.

Right here - this is what we aren't. We are not "they did worse" so we'll just get over this and go on. That's not us (and us is defined as civilized people irrespective of your nationality). Nope. I don't give # if this guy just shot the British soldier standing right next to this sick soldier torturing him. You DON'T humiliate and denegrate human beings. You DON'T treat them worse than you would treat a dog. And there's the point - I haven't had the urge to piss on my dog or butt him in the crotch with a rifle butt...why in the world as a sane human being would I want to do that to another human being?

[Edited on 5-1-2004 by Valhall]

Is it possible these images were faked?... Yes.

But remeber President Bush did in a speech condem the actions of these US soldiers and in a way confirmed this report and images as fact.

I do not think Bush would have even spoken about this issue if there was any chance it was a fake.

I am sure they have those behind this and I bet they are singing like crazy now.

I would not be too shocked if there is not much more to this story we have yet to see or hear.

It is very true that this can be used as propaganda by the enemy, in fact they could not have dreamed of anything better for them or their cause.

But the bottom line is the shame is on us and we have to admit that.

Lack of control at many levels is to blame, not just the ones guilty here.

Will it change world opinion, for some it will indeed.

For me This combined with the events in Iraq over the last month, and other information I have been able to find on my own and here at ATS I did change my view on this war.

Gazz

[Edited on 1-5-2004 by UM_Gazz]

Is there any definite answer as to how these photos got into the hands of CBS? They were the first to release them, I believe, and their reason for releasing them was that the photos had made it to the outside world and were going to be released anyway. I guess they just didn't want to be scooped.

It would seem to me that if a soldier had got hold of these photos, the correct thing to do would be to hand them over to his superior officers, not to CBS.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Is there any definite answer as to how these photos got into the hands of CBS? They were the first to release them, I believe, and their reason for releasing them was that the photos had made it to the outside world and were going to be released anyway. I guess they just didn't want to be scooped.

It would seem to me that if a soldier had got hold of these photos, the correct thing to do would be to hand them over to his superior officers, not to CBS.

It seems the definate answer would be to read the CBS article HERE

"It was American soldiers serving as military police at Abu Ghraib who took these pictures. The investigation started when one soldier got them from a friend, and gave them to his commanders. 60 Minutes II has a dozen of these pictures, and there are many more � pictures that show Americans, men and women in military uniforms, posing with naked Iraqi prisoners."

im sorry people but ive got news for you but this happens in every conflict by all sides and your kidding your self if you think other wise...
ITS WARRRRRR!!!!!!!

now if your supporting this war your supporting this activity....albeit indirectly but never the less your supporting it !!!

you dont think our guys did anything like this in other conflicts...in wwii things like this happened but they were well hid.....
so you need to think the next time you stand for military action because this happens no matter who is in on it .....all sides perpatrate theese atrocities.....no matter how moral you think one side or the other is.

[Edited on 1-5-2004 by watcheroftheskies]

"now if your supporting this war your supporting this activity....albeit indirectly but never the less your supporting it !!!"

if your not supporting the war, you're supporting saddams regime and terrorism

Thanks, curme, but I'm just a little slower than usual today. Soldiers took these pictures. One soldier got them from a friend, and gave them to his commanding officers. 60 Minutes II has a dozen of these photos.

Who gave them to 60 Minutes II?

the question is: what the hell are those iraqis doing? it looks like a retarded human pyramid. honestly, what on earth where they asked to do? get on top of eachother's backs?

Originally posted by Cheburator

Originally posted by kinglizard
This makes me sick! We are supposedly in Iraq to liberate the people from human rights abuses. This is similar to the treatment Sadam imposed on his own prisoners. He humiliated them and preformed torturous acts on his people. These photos could jeopardize the US effort to free these people. I hope they throw the book at the US soldiers in the photos.

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by kinglizard]

This makes me sick! We are supposedly in Iraq to liberate the people from human rights abuses.

These photos could jeopardize the US effort to free these people.

Well done,dude!Keep postig, need more laugh.

Cheburator,

Do you have anything intellectual to add? If you have nothing to add then do just that. We can debate all day long on the reasons for war. The fact of the matter is that we told the world we want to spread freedom, preserve human rights and prevent the spread of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. You can�t win this war with bullets; we must win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. They need to see that in the long run they will have their freedom and human rights. If these photos are seen by the Iraqi people and accepted as routine US treatment of their people it will be impossible to gain their trust and faith.

In short, think before you post. Then again, don�t get lost in thought; you'll be a total stranger there.

In a strange twist to this, and being that the BBC was one of the first to break the news on the Iraqi prisoner abuses, isn't it a bit ironic that the BBC has, as of today, released this?
Doubt cast on Iraq torture photos

Sources close to the army have questioned the authenticity of photographs appearing to show British soldiers torturing an Iraqi prisoner.

An investigation has begun into claims British troops assaulted the prisoner before throwing him from a lorry.

The claims were made in the Daily Mirror which carried photos allegedly taken during the man's ordeal.

Also of note was this analysis done at LGF's earlier today:
"The Brave Mujahideen of Fallujah"---Post number 66

The pictures are out of sequence, so we should designate as numbers 1-4 from the top of the article.

In picture #1, at the top of the article, the victim is wearing a button-down shirt with epaulets.
In the others, he is wearing a t-shirt with a Baathist Iraqi flag.
There is no bloodstain on the hood in picture #2 and only a small one in #3. There is a large one in picture #1, indicating that it was taken after 2 and 3.
Did he change shirts during the beating?
The bag over his head is dark in picture #4, light in the others.
Could this be saturated with blood? Only if he changed back into the t-shirt after picture #1, (which, again, is actually the third in the sequence).

seekerof

[Edited on 1-5-2004 by Seekerof]

It doesn't look like a button down shirt.
It looks like the T-Shirt has been ripped open.

The darker shade of the hood in one of the pictures could be obstructed light from the soldier leaning over.

One thing to point out though, the T-Shirt is very clean and white for a very dusty place like Iraq where they don't have a lot of clean water in many places.
It looks brand new.
That seems unusual.



The other items mentioned, like the gun, the hat and the truck do seem to raise reasonable doubt though.

One more thing, why are they black and white?
Who takes black and white pictures anymore?

Lest confusion take over: the photos of British soldiers torturing prisoners have already been called into question by UK authorities - who have pointed out that clothing and vehicle types don't match what is currently being used by British soldiers in Iraq. However I haven't seen anything 'official' calling the photos of US soldier's torturing their prisoners into question. They appear to be genuine, or at least of a different source and quality than the Brit photos.

Personally I am appalled by the US photos. But a veteran friend reminded me that one of the things we all need to do is remember the pressure-cooker environment of extended military service in a war zone. It's f-ing nutty, and wears one down. I could never get behind anyone who did what these US soldiers did; but I have considered that we shouldn't forget that not everyone is strong enough to handle the pressures of war. These people should be prosecuted but they should not be given the same treatment - literally or figuratively - either.

One of the soldiers said he hadn't been trained in the tenets of the Geneva convention. The news commentator asked, how about trained in simple humanity? I agree.

[Edited on 2-5-2004 by soul_death]

come on my man just give me a break here,this picture is all around the world right now just why dont you says pict from guantanamo bay was a superimpose too ,are you nut do you think people want to play a crack pot in IRAQ issue ohhhhs please they will burn you alive man there is no respect to any whiteman there man.be sure what you are talking about.now all the arab in flame in fallujah US troop retreat right now they scared by the anger of the public.my advice here is please dont shake that kind of ball my man it is so dangerous it can burn all even US troop command central in riyadh

Cheburator,

Do you have anything intellectual to add? If you have nothing to add then do just that. We can debate all day long on the reasons for war. The fact of the matter is that we told the world we want to spread freedom, preserve human rights and prevent the spread of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. You can�t win this war with bullets; we must win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. They need to see that in the long run they will have their freedom and human rights. If these photos are seen by the Iraqi people and accepted as routine US treatment of their people it will be impossible to gain their trust and faith.

In short, think before you post. Then again, don�t get lost in thought; you'll be a total stranger there.

Morning, dude! First of all I don�t want you to feel offended by my post(I didn�t have such an intention).Secondly ,I�m not going to debate with you all day long �it�s quite useless to talk with such a brainwashed guy (if you excuse me ).Frankly speaking ,last time I didn�t mean to post ,but I couldn�t help myself from laughing .Dude, I do apologise one more time ,but � The fact of the matter is that we told the world we want to spread freedom..."
"...preserve human rights .."
"...prevent the spread of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq "
"They need to see that in the long run they will have their freedom and human rights..."
Well done ,dude!!! Keep posting

There is a huge questionmark over the British photographs.

Firstly, the rifle shown is an older model SA80. The British Army does not use this any more and none were taken to Iraq.
The Bedford truck is of a model that is older and was not taken to Iraq.
The British Army in Iraq wears berets or helmets and in this case the soldiers are shown wearing floppy jungle hats. Again these were not taken to Iraq and they are not legitimate issue.

The fact that the subject is also wearing a T Shirt with the old Iraqi flag on it also seems to be very suspicious to me. It's almost as if they are trying to make a point.

I've made up my mind and am pretty damn certain that these photos are false. There is just too much there that doesn't add up.

news.bbc.co.uk...

What really pisses me off is that our media printed these photos as fact under the headlines of "Shame" and "Vile". If they have got their story wrong, they have caused more damage and risked the lives of more British soldiers than any other act undertaken so far. It doesn't matter if the photos are false - there are those who are always going to believe them.

The fact that the subject is also wearing a T Shirt with the old Iraqi flag on it also seems to be very suspicious to me. It's almost as if they are trying to make a point.

Just to clear that up. It's a soccer jersey. Still very popular with the kids in Iraq. Nothing political, just football and national pride for a team, that every nation has. I even bought a couple when I was there. I know it sounds terrible, but I almost hope that the UK pics are real, just so that the US don't look like the only jerks around.

Yes, it does look like a soccer jersey. But it's a clean soccer jersey. This guy is meant to have been held for 8 hours. It starts off with the soccer jersey looking brand new and then in the next photo it has been ripped off.The photos look like they were taken seconds apart.





This looks like a staged ripping of the shirt.