Is This Your Brain On God?

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
reply to post by ghaleon12

 

How can such an inquiry into the most mysterious corners of our existence be received/taken as "stupid"?

[edit on 31-5-2009 by The All Seeing I]

You kinda misquoted me, the only thing I find "stupid" is when some nerd in a chair sees squiggles on a screen and then comes up with the idea the religion and spirituality is "false" and that those experiences are meaningless, that is what I said.

Inquiry into existence I don't find "stupid".

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
As i stated before, the error is in the embrace of subjective reality as a source or confirmation for a "greater reality".

For certain reality, it is the only confirmation possible. If that somehow changes in the future, I welcome it.

I was not raised religiously nor consider myself religious. Mainly I recognized a problem with materialist views of consciousness which led to further considerations. It goes places for which I have little to no facility for language but I sense further development is possible. Language may develop where certain understandings are more commonplace much like some intuitive understanding of what we mean by "consciousness" is possible to communicate even though noone has any objective evidence of its existence.

Another example to help illustrate;

The experience of being in-love, which is not a realistic love but more of an infatuation. In-love with the idea of a person, versus the whole package... the good, bad and ugly of a person.

I already have someone fully accepting in my life that is neither Jesus nor a diety. It really exists in this realm contrary to what the cynical may say.

This euphoric state of mind is not any different then what we see with jesus-freaks. The idea that there is someone who completely understands you and loves you with all of your flaws and imperfections can be intoxicating. To interpret this high as a "greater reality" only because the subject of the infatuation is a "divine being" doesn't make it any "greater" then the infatuation one has for a "mortal being".

My expanded outlook is no source of pat certainty or consolation. My earlier mindset was staunchly atheistic which carried a level of certainty and comfort that further examination of reality tore away. On that level it is daring. There are questions far beyond the addressing of neural activity patterns, even if conscious or unconscious processes in the brain are unambiguously identified. Even then, that will be only the first step and the terrain suddently gets very steep. In a bimodal science vs. religion mindset, it may be impassable. What finally comes from a synthesis may be neither one.

You are being given a glimpse of the difference between the esoteric and exoteric.

The symptoms for both are the same. Recalling the last come times i encountered someone who was in-love... they rambled on endlessly about their love interest... in some cases this was a celebrity they never even meet, but only imaged/dreamed/fantasied about meeting and having a one on one relationship. This is not any different then the jesus-freak who rambles on endlessly about how wonderful jesus is... and all the wonderful things he has done for them and others.

Well, I guess that is their personality, not mine. Those individuals are actually looking for an "external" savior (whatever they think will make things perfect for them) when in fact that does not exist.

Originally posted by Aim64C
Why is it that some people think the world will be better off without certain other people around?

Theist's roping and pushing the world toward their own suicidal self-fullfilling prophecy... they fondly call armageddon. Now that is one example of a group of people we could do without:



It all starts with the belief/application of a script... the word/wish of god:

And the LORD spake unto Moses saying, 'Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them the following' ...“When ye are passed over the Jordan river into the land of Canaan, ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and tear down all their high places

And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein, for I have given you the land to possess it. But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which shall remain shall be pricks in your eyes and thorns in your sides and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell

Book of Numbers 33:50-56

Originally posted by The All Seeing I

Originally posted by Aim64C
Why is it that some people think the world will be better off without certain other people around?

Theist's roping and pushing the world toward their own suicidal self-fullfilling prophecy... they fondly call armageddon. Now that is one example of a group of people we could do without:

I see no roping or pushing.

I see no self-fulfilling prophecy, either.

I do see Armageddon. It's part of why I'm here - not for the first time, and certainly not for the last.

Armageddon is a cycle - our cycle of civilization - of building, prospering, becoming complacent, and destroying ourselves only to be reborn out of the ashes. You nor I can stop this cycle. It's ingrained into the very fabric of our being.

This cycle will be of particular importance - if you can't already feel that in your bones. You've got an all-star cast lined up to help you all through it, though. It'll be fun.

But it doesn't change what you're doing - judging others as plainly as you accuse them of judging others. You are following your own self-fulfilling prophecy. Looking at the world through tinted glasses has this effect.

It all starts with the belief/application of a script... the word/wish of god:

And the LORD spake unto Moses saying, 'Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them the following' ...“When ye are passed over the Jordan river into the land of Canaan, ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and tear down all their high places

And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein, for I have given you the land to possess it. But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which shall remain shall be pricks in your eyes and thorns in your sides and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell

Book of Numbers 33:50-56

At this point in history, the Israelites were still nomadic following the exodus. They required a land to call home - and the Philistines were long-time enemies of the Israelites.

The latter is just common sense - if you occupy them - they will resist and fight back, being more trouble than they are worth, and future generations will be none too pleased with your actions.

Not to mention the Philistines were no different then than they are today - a rather troublesome group to everyone in the region - a barbaric society, if you will.

The Hebrews were a rather peaceful lot and had trade relations with parts of what became Rome, Egypt, and even as far east as China.

Of course - this is a loaded conversation - a trap.

The real point of focus is with the original concept proposed by your thread - that belief in a deity is an abnormal, and pathological brain function.

The problem is that the studies overlook the fact that humans always have something they regard as a deity.

Example: You would put so much weight on the word of a research paper as to make the decision that a person's right to life and/or free will should be suspended/removed with the prospect of making the world a better place.

Sounds awfully similar, in principle, to the scripture you quoted.

I'm sure if we gave you an MRI while making those statements, you'd show rather similar brain function to the "religious fanatics."

Originally posted by Aim64C
The real point of focus is with the original concept proposed by your thread - that belief in a deity is an abnormal, and pathological brain function.

Yes absolutely... and thank you for illustrating this point in your reply... i am absolutely & ... i have nothing else that i can add ... you have done an excellent job in expressing exactly what scares the sh!t out of the secular world.

[edit on 1-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

reply to post by The All Seeing I


Strange - all I see is more of the same.

The same glazed look in the eye of Westboro baptist church members is the same glazed look I see in your eye. Your case is, perhaps, not as severe - but the same lost preachers that you see as a bane of society are simply a mirror image of yourself.

But I don't anticipate my words will be heeded, nor popular.

reply to post by Aim64C


"When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, you think it's only a minute. But when you sit on a hot stove for a minute, you think it's two hours. That's relativity."
~ Albert Einstein

Your beliefs skew your perception of reality.

As for your attempt to twist/flip your position on to me... just shows how far the god drug will alter ones sense of purpose and character. Clearly a defensive measure, much like those employed by addicts who are confronted about their addiction. Like an animal being cornered... they either fight or fly... in this case you are doing both at the same time.

Science cannot explain so much, so i would not even go there.

I hear science rubbish religious experiences all the time. But science is a religion too on so many fronts.

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
reply to post by Aim64C

 

"When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, you think it's only a minute. But when you sit on a hot stove for a minute, you think it's two hours. That's relativity."
~ Albert Einstein

Your beliefs skew your perception of reality.

Relativity is not reality. Reality is what it is. Everyone experiences that reality in different ways.

How ironic that you should use the quote of a deist to exemplify your case.

As for your attempt to twist/flip your position on to me... just shows how far the god drug will alter ones sense of purpose and character. Clearly a defensive measure, much like those employed by addicts who are confronted about their addiction. Like an animal being cornered... they either fight or fly... in this case you are doing both at the same time.

I couldn't flip my position over on you even if I wanted to. I'm in the top 1-2% of the population by just about every intellectual metric. It just wouldn't fit you.

However - your position is this:

1) Everyone who believes in God is an avid evangelist that speaks in tongues, or participates in similar euphoric activities.

- Buddy, I'm a Presbyterian - one of the "frozen chosen" - the most exciting moments in our churches come about in the form of politics. So-and-So is leaving unless X and Y conditions are met.

That's a bit of an exaggeration - but we're not the most outwardly enthusiastic bunch. If someone falls over and starts having seizures - they have epilepsy, and paramedics will be involved.

2) Belief in God produces brain activity that is similar to those who have pathological disorders - thus, theist/deist beliefs are a pathological disorder

- Considering the use of drugs in therapy; I believe it would be wise to look at it from a utilitarian aspect - it is an effect that can be used for both good and bad things.

Additionally - these pathological disorders are considered pathological because an individual becomes addicted to a substance. In order to satisfy their addiction - these people will commit to socially unacceptable acts, as well as develop mental instability when deprived of the drug.

The difference between a substance and a "god experience" is the trigger. A "god experience" has no market value, and does not require one to commit resources that would otherwise go to food/shelter to have the experience. Additionally, I've yet to hear of someone "overdosing on God" and dying - more specifically - I've yet to hear of a case where someone's own meditative state of euphoria lead to some kind of physical trauma.

Now, what is pathological is if someone believes God only exists in a sanctuary, and only gives them experiences if they put enough money in the offering plate.

But that is, effectively, no different than believing happiness can be bought at the store, or found in some kind of substance.

And the "we're better off without those people... those... sinners..." belief (the same attitude possessed by many of the Pharisee) is not dissimilar from your own attitude.

There's nothing for me to flip over on you. You are merely shouting from under your own creation.

Originally posted by contemplator
There is another study regarding the "god region" of the brain. It examines non-believers who suffered brain trauma to the god region, and well whadda ya know.. they became rabid evangelicals. In more detail and digging deeper it becomes obvious that religious belief is well, for the most a brain abnormality. Correct the god region and bring the brain in line with a normal brain and poof, religious fervour evaporates. That will be the next phase, correcting the damage, which I tend to think is caused by environmental and genetic predisposition (fluoridated water perhaps?). This is great news because with the right type of widely dispersed gene therapy, future technology may be able to cure these people and allow humanity to progress.

Prove there is no god! Prove there is one! When you can do either of those things then you have the right to make a ludicrous comment like that one. You have a god region too! Why are you not a rabid evangelical? I have a god region, why am I not a religious extremist!?

Lol people will try anything these days. You know, every religious publication has predicted that one day there will be a world wide religious holocaust spawned by the upheaval of atheism. Basically it predicted that once there was enough atheists in the world anyone with a religion is to be killed on sight and slaughtered in masses.

Yup that's a real push forward for humanity!

It is better to believe in god and there not be one, then not believe in god and find out you're screwed.

My advice to you is if one day this NWO thing happens and there is a one world govt with a single leader, and that leader decrees that you have to get this surgery, or have a microchip implanted or have something put on your forehead or they will kill you, don't do it. That would mean the Christians where right all along!

Oh yeah, and tell me why you are at it. If this is possible why is god not possible.

This was on an episode of ripley's believe it or not. Here is an excerpt from the episode. This really happened, and this is not the only person this has happened to.



[edit on 3-6-2009 by DaMod]

reply to post by DaMod

Debunked by Dr. Nickell in 1997...

Hasnah, who claims to produce up to seven crystals a day, showed a collection of the allegedly apported rocks. From their rhomboidal shape and other properties, I recognized them as the natural quartz crystals generally known as "Herkimer diamonds." With the television crew being expected to arrive here the following day, I hastily made some phone calls and soon had acquired a handful of the gemstones.

Although such stones are indeed sharp - and I could see a dark red spot inside the girl's eyelid that probably represented a wound from one of them - I decided to duplicate the effect. All that was necessary was to pull out the lower eyelid to form a pouch and drop in a small crystal so that it rested, only a bit uncomfortably, out of sight. A tug on the lower lid causes the stone to come into view and then pop out of the eye. This I demonstrated at an appropriate time for the television camera, allowing their reporter to actually do the extraction himself. The effect was indistinguishable from the Lebanese "miracle."

See how the 'brain on god', makes us believe in magic/miracles?

Bio: Joe Nickell, Ph.D., is Senior Research Fellow of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (CSI) and "Investigative Files" Columnist for Skeptical Inquirer. A former stage magician, private investigator, and teacher, he is author of numerous books, including Inquest on the Shroud of Turin (1998), Pen, Ink and Evidence (2003), Unsolved History (2005) and Adventures in Paranormal Investigation (2007). He has appeared in many television documentaries and has been profiled in The New Yorker and on NBC's Today Show.




[edit on 3-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

reply to post by Aim64C


I agree. The thing I find the most disheartening is how naive people really are.

For example, in physics there are many things that we cannot explain, so we then make up non-existent particles and dark matter / dark energy to make up for the unseen. There can be nothing unexplained, and nothing undiscovered. If it doesn't exist in scientific principle we know now, then it doesn't exist at all. But isn't science supposed to be about understanding the unexplained?

Another example would apply to this thread. No one can prove god exists therefore he doesn't? In fact most people that do not believe in god think it is ludicrous to even allow for the possibility. In any other field this would be looked at as a bad thing, except when it comes to the concept of god. For some reason there is an exception to the rule that the concept that god cannot exist but alternate dimensions of reality can? Or that the universe sprang up from nothing but there is not possible way a god caused it? This doesn't even have to apply to a god we have in any religion, still the concept is far fetched? I mean cmon people, excluding any possibility in any field is complete fallacy and hinders discovery. Sure organized religion has caused more than its own weight in problems but does that really mean there is no god at all? The actions of any one human or any group for that matter must be taken as irrelevant to the concept, because the actions of one or many persons do not necessarily mean those are the intentions of the being in question. I am going to get flamed for this post but I don't care. It just shows the ignorance of many people. Ignorant not because you do not believe in god, but because you hinder your own learning curve by not allowing the possibility. Cryptozoology is another fine example. Nessy may very well exist. A species that existed then could exist now. There are many reasons why the species could have survived, but the subject is looked on with the same disdain as god by many people. Take Ufology. The universe is too big and too vast for us to be alone. People will accept that intelligent life exists somewhere else but when it comes to them visiting earth, NO THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! That's a huge contradiction. If they are 1000 years ahead of us, they may very well have discovered a method of space travel. They very well may have been here before! Anyone that doesn't believe that, treats it with the same sort of disdain. Look at things we have now that used to be impossible...

The fact of the matter is if you do not allow possibilities then anything not within your own realm of belief is impossible. What really is impossible though? Do we really know? God is not impossible, and neither is anything else. When we know everything there is to possibly know, then you can tell me what is impossible or not. Till then you need to open your mind up to possibilities.

We still have very little knowledge of how the brain works. During a coherent thought it looks like a lightning storm in your head.

Memories of religion might be linked to memories of family or a bad experience or an emotion. Which means that if your thought about religion has anything to do with any of those things, then those neurons will fire as well. Perhaps a uniform place exists for any belief system in your head. The god part of the brain might simply be the spot where your beliefs are organized, categorized and accessed. Which means whenever you have an atheist thought it might very well fire at the same spot.

We have no idea how the brain works on any real level. We are talking about a computer that can compute 400 million bits per second.. We never worked with anything close to that. Ever!



[edit on 3-6-2009 by DaMod]

[edit on 3-6-2009 by DaMod]

reply to post by The All Seeing I


Interesting thread
Although not enrirely the same thing, in a thread i made last year i touched on the similarities of the experiences of spiritual awakenings, epilepsy and the effects of '___' which whilst is a class A drug is also a natural substane found in the brain which enables us to dream. Thought you might be interested so i have provided a link below:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by The All Seeing I


I believe one quote is all that needs to be used:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- Arthur C Clarke.

If I were to demonstrate to you that the human being is, in fact, a 'trans-dimensional' entity - having a portion of our existence influencing our world, but existing in a 'realm' that cannot be seen (completely plausible by the known laws of physics - though we've nothing to establish probability, and no present devised means of performing tests) - there may be a more reasonable explanation for 'psychics' and 'magic' than the dismissive 'trickery/luck' explanation.

That's not to say all reports of the paranormal are, in fact, paranormal - but we are far too quick to presume we have the world by the ass, when it's quite the other way around.

I don't believe a miracle must always take the form of the paranormal, however. Take the Exodus, for example - a sequence of plagues and events that were no coincidence - but rooted in nature. The miracle is not the parting of the Sea of Reeds, but is rather Moses' insight/foresight into the matter that transcended everything we know of their understanding.

Some force gave that man insight. To know of the coming plagues - to realize the importance of the passover - and to come to the Sea of Reeds just prior to an eruption-induced tsunami? That is a miracle.

My own life can be considered a miracle - I was born within a narrow window of opportunity - two months premature. A little earlier, and my lungs would have hardly been developed and still filled with fluid. A little later and my lungs would have once again filled with fluid. I was nearly a stillborn child. From there, I was supposed to be a poorly developed and sickly child as many prematurely born children are.

I may not be the most buff guy on the block - but I can hold my own (and I'm a serious runner). My immune system is nigh impregnable - never even got sick in bootcamp (without the penicillin they were giving us.... they were trying to give us the pills as opposed to the "peanut-butter shot" - not sure why... but I never remembered to take that crap).

And despite the numerous mental illnesses that plague premature births - I consistently perform at the top of any given population in both aptitude and ability.

Is that a miracle? Depends upon how you look at it. Was I blindly drifting through the odds, or was some force helping improve my chances? It's nothing that can be verified by any known experimental procedure (as far as I know - we've yet to develop a method of testing whether or not an applied force has a given intent).

But, I guess that's all just the over-active "god region" speaking.

Let me start off by saying hello

Logical understand helps on this topic so i wish to feel the need to put forth MY own case on this

Assessment.

What is God?

What is Life?

What is the very function Life and why would God put you here

Look at the statements i have made both in a scientific way and in a biblical way

How can one get an answer with both? if they are questions?

Do you not find it interesting that you seek answers? is it we are trying to prove it in a way that makes you happy? or is it proof?

The ironic part i find funny is that you will never find the answer to what it is you seek

Do you know why? you are the answer



have a nice day

oh and the brain humans are trying to "understand" is lets say some what foolish

You did not make it did you?

that would somewhat equate to a son giving birth to his farther

E logical to say the least



[edit on 3-6-2009 by symmetricAvenger]

Believing in God is a choice. If He talks to you you have to believe that it is really Him. I got there by deductive thinking. He was talking to me, there was no doubt about it. I was asking What if there is no God, and suddenly I felt painfully cold and alone, and to end the pain I said, quickly, but what if there is. Suddenly I felt warm and good. And He said " you can have it either way and never know the other is there." My imagination was not capable of such a dialogue, and the pain was real. So He convinced me, and I deductively reasoned, Well if I can have it either way, then God must exist, because if He didn't, then I wouldn't have any choice. But I knew it wasn't me so it had to be Him. When God talks to you, you feel good. Usually He is reminding me that I am doing something I shouldn't be doing, but you still feel good. You can get tuned in to the demonic and you know it's not you, but it feels wrong. It feels evil, unsettled. There is a demonic out there, that wants to destroy you. There must be some explanation for the Bilderbergs. But God loves you and wants what's good for you. And if you ask Him, He will answer you.

Chris Langan is a guy with an astonishingly huge IQ, tested at 195, and profiled in the recent Malcom Gladwell best seller "Outliers: the story of success."

I've noticed that there is a communication problem in general where the exceptionally intelligent often seem stupid to the people with average and less than average intelligence. And yes I know, blah blah IQ is not the blah blah blah(this is not the place for that debate), but check this guy out, he is for real. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that yes indeed he's bloody brilliant.

Guess where he stands on this issue? Guess what he's been content to spend his life working on? Hint: not building bombs.

reply to post by DaMod[/url]

 

I am going to get flamed for this post but I don't care.

... but seriously... it was a great thread... i completely agree with the premise that it is important to have an open mind to what is possible, which i think unobstructed and unrestrained scholastic and scientific inquiry entails. To take some elements from your proposal into further consideration... i think there is a good chance that what we frame as 'god' is really an intergalactic being... it would certainly explain some of the supernatural phenomenon recorded in the bible, explain why god appears to absent or incompetent and also explain many claims of alien abductions... for s/he is 100's of galaxies away planting new life on barren planets afar. The closest parallel we have to draw this conclusion from are ecological conservation projects. We put endangered species in a bordered area so we can more closely monitor the species mating and migration behavior... and to also occasionally swoop out from the sky and shoot one with a tranquilizing dart so we can perform physicals/tests... from the animal's perspective this experience must be very similar to those who have been abducted by aliens.

Those who dismiss this hypothesis as silly... most likely have their blinders on... their holy texts suggest otherwise. With all that we know now about our world and the universe as a whole, this is more likely true then adam and eve, noah's arc and jesus's resurrection... unless of course jesus was a shape shifting walk on water alien.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

reply to post by MCoG1980


Thank you for turning me on to your thread. As you can see by your own experience and those who share theirs in turn... with all of the closely related chemically-imbalanced experiences that people have had, either by means of genetics and/or introduced by means of drugs the symptoms are similar if not the same to those under the influence of 'god'. There is undeniably a psychosomatic factor at play here and is well worth exploring.


[edit on 4-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

I used to be an alcoholic and before getting deep into that lifestyle, herb greenage was on the daily ingested. Also I have tried lsd, shrooms, and all types of stuff in between except needles.

Also, I claim to have spiritual enlightenment. I will say my direct experiences of God make drug highs look like ants staring at Mt. Everest.

Experiencing God is a zillion billion times better, permanent, and beyond the cloudy and dirty highs that drugs temporarily give you. I'll put money on that