Scientist believes Atlantis found...

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
...

The information on the �pre-Harappan� city found offshore in India sounds like a possibility, because the article mentions bring up actual artifacts (although they never get around to actually showing them that I can find). So I figured that if this were a real thing, the real scientific journals would have something about it.

I searched the following journals for information, using the Boolean terms "HARAPPAN OR CAMBAY�. Here is what I found:

< SNIP >

I reviewed back issues for two years and saw nothing of a pre-Harappan civilization, or any mention of a submerged city in Cambay or anyplace else.

What does this tell you?

...

I�m still waiting, and, so, I believe, is my esteemed colleague Ms. Byrd.

Wait no longer! I have arrived with fresh pictures. Here (Surat/Harapay/Gulf of Cambray being the third picture from the left and here -- the latter being a early 1992 discovery with a 2002 expedition to Poompuhar, India.

I have to admit, there are probably HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of sites in the world that are man's attempt at living in an area that gave way to higher seas.

Plato's words are available online:

'Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia.'

I agree with Zip: Atlantis is the Americas. Gazrok is right, Bolivia had something to do with it too. The only problem with the chronology is inaccurate dating of the American monuments by biased Eurocentric archaeologists. I think the ancients thought it sunk because the canoes quit coming, which could have been due to the American's lack of resistance to European plagues, as happened during 'second contact'.

New World Order = Way Old Idea

[edit on 17-11-2004 by Chakotay]

I do dispute that Atlantis ever was real simply because the single sole source is Plato. Troy was different. Yes, there was the legend, but there were ALSO a number of famous plays by very famous playwrights.

Plays were an extremely important part of the culture, because they carried both religious and secular significance. Themes occur and reoccur as famous stories are played out from different angles. For example, supporting the idea that Troy was real were play manuscripts and fragments including THE TROJAN WOMEN, Virgil's ANEID, IPHIEGNIA, AGAMEMNON, IPHEGNIA IN TAURUS, and is referenced in many other plays and so on.
novaonline.nvcc.edu...

If it was real, there would be countless other references. The tale of a city, lost when the rulers became too arrogant is a favorite and prize-winning theme of Greek literature and plays. If there had been a real Atlantis, Euripides and Aeschylus and Homer and the others would have been falling all over themselves to write about it.

There's nothing before Plato. There's no direct transmission of it throughout most of history until Plato is rediscovered and Atlantis is reworked as something beyond a metaphor.

I do dispute that Atlantis ever was real simply because the single sole source is Plato. Troy was different. Yes, there was the legend, but there were ALSO a number of famous plays by very famous playwrights.

Plays were an extremely important part of the culture, because they carried both religious and secular significance. Themes occur and reoccur as famous stories are played out from different angles. For example, supporting the idea that Troy was real were play manuscripts and fragments including THE TROJAN WOMEN, Virgil's ANEID, IPHIEGNIA, AGAMEMNON, IPHEGNIA IN TAURUS, and is referenced in many other plays and so on.
novaonline.nvcc.edu...

If it was real, there would be countless other references. The tale of a city, lost when the rulers became too arrogant is a favorite and prize-winning theme of Greek literature and plays. If there had been a real Atlantis, Euripides and Aeschylus and Homer and the others would have been falling all over themselves to write about it.

There's nothing before Plato. There's no direct transmission of it throughout most of history until Plato is rediscovered and Atlantis is reworked as something beyond a metaphor.

Originally posted by NextLevelWait no longer! I have arrived with fresh pictures. Here (Surat/Harapay/Gulf of Cambray being the third picture from the left and here -- the latter being a early 1992 discovery with a 2002 expedition to Poompuhar, India.

As my esteemed colleague, Off_The_Street says, these aren't Atlantis. In fact, the only one purporting that they might be Atlantis is Graham Hancock.

Mr. Hancock writes well. Mr. Hancock, however, is not an archaeologist. The site at Poompuhar is known to NOT be Atlantis.

And sonar blips are sonar blips. I notice that these "walls" are under 1500 meters of sediment; a fortunate finding that will allow him to go on selling books to fund his lifestyle without having to actually dig up any artifacts.

If he wants to be taken seriously, he'll get independant confirmation. Remember, folks, we HAVE seen hoaxes before and in this field (Ica Stones, Crystal Skull, etc, etc) there are a LOT of hoaxers who are willing to fabricate data to get money. In fact, we've seen this kind of hoaxing before on Atlantis.

There's some great hype there, but no substance. I think we should not declare it a "found city" until someone comes up with proof that this IS a temple or city (the more I read about it, the more suspicious I became, frankly) and finds a pot or four down there.

If it was real, there would be countless other references.

Except that Atlantis happened far before Troy...

I still find it hard to believe that the Altiplano is just a coincidence...

midway along the continent's longest side
rectangular plain of the dimensions given by Plato
Plato's thrice insistence the tale is true
alternating belts of land and sea
red, white, black stone
remnants of the wall
the trench to the sea
the mountain low on all sides
all correct measurements, etc. etc.

Originally posted by Byrd
If it was real, there would be countless other references. The tale of a city, lost when the rulers became too arrogant is a favorite and prize-winning theme of Greek literature and plays. If there had been a real Atlantis, Euripides and Aeschylus and Homer and the others would have been falling all over themselves to write about it.

Erm. This Empire fell 11,000 years ago. And apparently the battle was so ferocious, Europeans prayed the peoples from the Atlantic would never appear again, and thankfully forgot them. I have a feeling the Atlanteans (Americans) appeared in the Mediterranean on a mission of exploration, got into a firefight, caught diseases they had no immunity to, and expired. This idea of plague transmission by sea could explain the demise of the ancient Mississipian culture. Plato did not claim authorship of this legend. He picked it up in Egypt, and the extant records no doubt were destroyed when the Romans burned the Library of Alexandria. In point of fact though, the Irish, Scandinavians, Africans and Portuguese also have legends of a lost Empire across the Atlantic. The atl-atl, the weapon that proceeded the bow and arrow, spread very rapidly around the world, as if by sea. We Cherokees also have a legend of a seaborne attack from the Atlantic by precolumbian Africans in sailing canoes, corroborated only by the Olmec finds at LaVenta- and the curly hair many of us display to this day. I think what we are witnessing in Byrd and others is the slowly dawning realization that Schliemann had tapped into the greater truth that legends are inspired by something that actually happened, many human occupations leave no traces other than legends, and ships can go both ways. We are ancient races, our ancestors held great power and knowledge, and civilization is a fleeting thing. I myself will humbly keep digging without assuming I or my colleagues have the right answers.

I believe we will discover in our lifetime evidence that the pyramids of Egypt and China were inspired by visits from these 'Atlanteans'.

Taking this discussion a step farther, Byrd what are your opinions of the Geoglyphs at Nazca? It is said the Atlanteans had some type of soaring technology (Rogallo wings?)- a good use for a step pyramid.

Sorry- couldn't help myself (sticking toungue in cheek).

Romance is why we dig. Science is the method we dig with.

[edit on 18-11-2004 by Chakotay]

Chakotay asks Byrd...

What her opinions are on the lines at Nazca.

I'm not Byrd, of course, and I have no hard data on those lines, but I figured it would be a good time to plug a good book of mine: Catastrophe: An Investigation into the Origins of the Modern World , by David Keys (1999). You can pick it up at any of the chain bookstores or order it on the Internet. Check out the writeup at Amazon:

www.amazon.com...=cm_rev_next/104-5424334-3299165?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-Submissi onDate&n=283155&customer-reviews.start=31

While I question some of Keys' information (I was at Teotihuacan just last month and it rode out the "catastrophe" quite nicely, thank you), I still say it 's a great read.

It also mentions Nazca, too, which was why I brought it up.

I've read two convincing books that Atlantean civilization was actually Minoan civilization on Crete and Thera.


Unearthing Atlantis - Charles Pellegrino
Atlantis Destroyed - Rodney Castleden

i'm with Gazrok Bolivia seems to fit the descriptions of Plato. Where and how could a person find maps showing ocean levels from 5 or 10 thousand years ago. this might clarify a POV??

Actually, there haven't been. There've been some enthusiastic amateurs announcing all sorts of discoveries -- but the real "smoking gun" (which would be pottery, jewelry, and artifacts along with ships and buildings) aren't there

Whilst not willing to tread on your toes Byrd, I feel that you have massively generalised and not acknowledged some known facts

There has been an expedition, sponsored by discovery, and run by Robert Ballard (The guy who found the Titanic) that found submerged pre-ice age settlements in the Black Sea to start with.

Here is a PDF about his expedition

Ballards Expedition

Plus there are the other well known oddities around the world, which may or may not be sunken settlements.

I think to write off the possibility of A) Civilisation around much longer than though and B) sunken settlements, just because of the inevitable association with Atlantis.

Whilst you may not believe in the Atlantean myth, you cannot write of the possibility of older civilisation or flooded cities.

wow i ahvn't been to ats in a long time now . i wonder how it's going and how many point si got; P

Kinda hard to find something that doesn't exist wouldn't you say? Hoax or mis.

Just thought I'd share this site, I found it had a lot of info i the one place about the various supposed locations of Atlantis.

My own theory is that the Azores are what is left of Atlantis, this would explaing the descriptions of it's location and why we haven't found any archaelolgy due to the fact that all the traces are deep in the the Atlantic.

Lots of good pics and for and against info.

Make your own mind up.....

www.mysteriousworld.com...

Originally posted by Muaddib
First you said that the Vedic scriptures do not say anything about an atomic explosion or anything similar to it, then you mention that these scriptures don't exist, proved you wrong on that, now this too?

Funny thing, but actually a lot of the books cited by the ancient nuclear war crowd -didn't- exist until this century. Vaimanika Shastra namely.
As for the scriptures, I spent untold hours shredding the nuclear war theory in www.abovetopsecret.com...'
If you read through that you will find a translation of that passage from www.sacred-texts.com which is decidedly non-nuclear. The nuclear aspect is a bias created by our modern knowledge of nuclear weapons- people steer the translation in that direction on purpose, and if they don't do so the translation has nothing to do with nukes.

"Atlantis Under Antarctica?
After WW II, scientists started to pay close attention to the issue of a supposedly once-existing civilization in Antarctica. The hypothesis is confirmed by some medieval maps and research of paleogeologists and glaciologists.

Twenty years later, the director of the Istanbul National Museum, Khalil Edkhem, was sorting out a library of the Byzantine emperors in an old palace. He found an ancient map made on gazelle skin. On the map, there were the shores of western and southern Africa, as well as the northern shores of Antarctica.

Nope, this was debunked a long time ago, and I had the honor of being the one who brought word of it to ATS. (I know, I'm a braggart).
The Piri Reis Map shows South America curving so that the coast of Argentina faces North. This is because the cartographer ran out of room on the page and didn't want to waste it. You can confirm this by downloading the map and comparing it to an Atlas. "Antarctica" very obviously has terrain features matching Argentina on the map, and the bottom half of South America is missing unless "antarctica" is actually it.

Khalil could not believe hiseyes: the shores of the Queen Mod Land, to the south of the 70th parallel, was free of ice. An ancient cartographer marked a mountain chain there. The name of the cartographer was known: an admiral of the Ottoman Empire fleet, Piri Reis, who lived in the first half of 16th century."

Actually he lived in the second half of the 15th century and first half of the 16th- he was about 90 years old when he was exectued for losing a battle. I did my homework on this one. The map is nothing impressive for its date- it's a collection of portugese and spanish charts all compiled into one big map of the ocean. Cuba isn't even on it, Haiti is turned 90 degrees on it's side, the Falkland Island are too big and too far North, there are islands that don't even exist mapped there, AND there are notes in the margins which say where the source maps came from- they were almost all from lost portugese merchants.

You've been pretty thorough about showing that there is stuff under water. Yes, there is stuff under water. The catch is that most of it is nice and close to the continents and is the victim of erosion, volcanic activity, rising tides, or tectonic shifts probably comparable to what we experienced not long ago in Indonesia.
There is little if any evidence for a lost continent which sank as a whole.

Plato is pretty explicit that there was a series of horrible earthquakes before the deluge, and that in one of these quakes atlantis sank. Sounds like a tsunami or a sudden movement in the plates if I ever heard it. We know from very recent experience this is possible.
That's not a lost continent, that's not a highly advanced civilization, that's not a nuclear war, that's not anything more amazing than other natural disasters in history we are already aware of.

If it was not for the great controversy, Atlantis would be dead. Its a similar case with biblical and secular archaeologists (although biblical archaeologists have more evidence to back them up).
The reason Atlantis still exists in our minds and in our cartoons is because we can not let the idea rest. Had Plato simply told us the story of a city that fell into the ocean, chances are we would not be so interested. However, it is the advanced technology, wealth, and knowledge that Plato describes that keeps us intrigued.
We often forget that Plato was not a historian, but a philosopher. His stories were not necessarily meant to be taken literally, but metaphorically. In the case of Atlantis, we have a story of a great nation who became the victim of their own greed and ill morals.
Could this have been Atlantis? Sure...but it could have also been Rome, Greece, Egypt... pick any Ancient civilization. You can even relate the story to the modern day United States, or even Russia.

If there is any other written record of the existance of Atlantis, I believe it might be found under the left paw of the sphinx, where the lost records archive is rumoured to rest.
But that too could be a story.

'Cataclysm' by Allen and Delair is a book that explains very well how the ice age b.s. is just that, b.s. 9 500 BC, or approx. 11 500 years ago, something very nasty happened. Extinctiion level nasty. It was so terrible, that thickly insulated, multi ton Mammoths froze to death where they stood, with temperate climate fauna in there digestive tracts. And no spoilage, the meat was edible 10 000 yrs. later. Imagine what temperature it would take to flash freeze a 5 tone wool covered roast quick enough to avoid freezer burn......then try to imagine what the reason is that they never thawed in 10 millenia. nasty.
Nasty.....
They found charcoal at that strata level, worldwide.
Geneticists now say that our extreme lack of dna variation is due to at least one major 'pinching off', and more likely two or three.
And the rain erosion on the Sphinx is more supportive evidence.
An elephant carving on the huge stone gate in Mexico suggests a pre-cataclysm high culture.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
They found charcoal at that strata level, worldwide.
Geneticists now say that our extreme lack of dna variation is due to at least one major 'pinching off', and more likely two or three.
And the rain erosion on the Sphinx is more supportive evidence.
An elephant carving on the huge stone gate in Mexico suggests a pre-cataclysm high culture.

Wow, I had no idea what you relevance your post held until I read that last line. Maybe you could try pulling your ideas together better and telling us exactly what is you're trying to say.
I understand that you're saying there is evidence pointing at advanced civilization prior to the Ice Age. Now please, go on from there...